Scotland Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim McGovern]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I raised this point earlier with the Secretary of State. Is the amendment competent, given that it refers to a Scottish Government who apparently do not exist at the moment?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

The amendment is in order, otherwise Mr Speaker would not have selected it for debate.

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[Mr Donohoe]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you gently remind the hon. Gentleman that he should speak to his amendment? He has been talking for some 15 minutes and I have not heard anything about the amendment.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I am grateful for your assistance in this matter, Mr Donohoe. I will decide whether the hon. Gentleman is in order. At the moment he still is and he is taking interventions. I am listening to all the contributions keenly, and I believe that the Secretary of State was about to give a response.

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[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primaralo)]

Order. Perhaps we could now return to the amendment, Mr Wishart.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend has made his point in his typical and obligatory forthright manner.

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[Anas Sarwar]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Before the hon. Gentleman concludes, may I point out that I do not feel he has spoken about the amendment? I wonder whether he will do that before he concludes.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Fortunately, it is not for the Chair to remind Members that they have not necessarily referred to every point in their amendments. Members of the House can draw their own conclusions.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) will get to make his own point in his own forceful way if he catches your eye.

I was about to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall conclude on the subject of the reasoned amendment. I want right hon. and hon. Members to support our amendment. We want to try to improve this Bill. It is a broken Bill; it is a Bill that does not serve the people of Scotland. The tax powers will be dangerous if they are implemented. I hope that hon. Members will support our approach as the Bill goes through. Let us strengthen it and make it a powerhouse Bill that serves the people of Scotland. As it stands, it is a broken Bill that cannot serve the people of Scotland because of the financial powers in it. I urge everybody to support our reasoned amendment.

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[Mr Donohoe]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I must correct the hon. Lady. Rabbie Burns was never known as Rabbie Burns. Rabbie, in Ayrshire parlance, is the village idiot: Robert was never known as Rabbie.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

We will take that as a point of clarification rather than a point of order.

[Mrs Laing]

I entirely take the hon. Gentleman’s point—I was being far too familiar and colloquial. Let me be more formal. This week, we celebrate the anniversary of the birth of our great Scottish national poet Mr Robert Burns, and one of his best poems makes the point that he was a true Unionist. “The Dumfries Volunteers” says clearly, at the end of its second verse:

“Be Britain still to Britain true,

Amang oursels united;

For never but by British hands

Maun British wrangs be righted!”

Long may it continue, Madam Deputy Speaker. We welcome the Scotland Bill because it totally strengthens Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom.

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[Stewart Hosie]

Withdraw! You said “no new stations”. Withdraw now!

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr Hosie, I think that is my business, not yours, and I would be very grateful if you did not shout across the Chamber.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I acknowledge that some of those things have happened, but the SNP has been very good at cutting the ribbons on projects that were announced, organised and set in motion by previous local or national Administrations.

[Gordon Banks]

The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) mentioned the Sterling-Alloa railway line. The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) is exactly right—the SNP came and cut the ribbon, but the hard work was done under the previous Administration, not the current one.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Many speakers have gone very wide of the subject in illustrating the points that they wish to make. Mr Bruce, I would be grateful if you came back to the subject of the Bill in responding to the intervention.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I will of course observe your strictures, Madam Deputy Speaker, but when we are talking about powers, it is important that we also discuss our capacity to use those powers effectively. My contention is that the points I have made show why we need to take a step-by-step approach and demonstrate how well we can use our powers, and then hopefully take more of them.

Those who want to go faster have to acknowledge that Scotland’s capacity to take on the full responsibility for its own financial affairs is beyond credibility in the present circumstances. The UK is struggling to tackle a massive financial problem, and Scotland has a disproportionate share of that problem in its needs, its share of the national debt and its share in the underwriting of the banks, which has brought us to this pass. The reality is that Scotland’s future lies absolutely within the UK, but it is important that we have the power to take appropriate decisions, accountable to the people of Scotland, in ways that can help us make our own contribution to solving those problems in our own way.

As one or two Members have mentioned—it was alluded to by Calman—the transfer of benefits policy to Scotland has been suggested. That might happen in the longer term, but most people would acknowledge that the administration of certain aspects of benefits could be devolved or shared. At the moment, however, Scotland’s benefits bill is disproportionate, so the matter is much better shared across the UK, especially during these particularly difficult times.

We have embarked on a fundamental and radical welfare reform, which, leaving aside any controversial aspects, many people recognise has merit if it can deliver responsive benefits, value for work and so on. In the longer term it might be possible for Scotland to take a role in administering welfare, but now would hardly be the right moment to do so, as we are in the middle of a major funding deficit and a major reform programme. We must make common-sense decisions, taking on board what can practically be done now and acknowledging that further transfers could happen in the short term, when we are good and ready. Consideration at a later date can take us further forward.

I should like clarification on two questions that have been raised with me. One relates to the progressive commitment that the coalition Government have made on the threshold level of tax. As a former Treasury spokesman for my party, our commitment to raising the level at which people pay tax to £10,000, starting with £1,000 in the current year and progressing during this Parliament, is dear to my heart. I wonder whether the Under-Secretary in his reply can explain how that will be accommodated in calculating the tax revenues that would accrue to Scotland, or compensated for so that it does not create a disadvantage out of a good and progressive reform.

My second question relates to some aspects of charity law, which are not just peculiar to Scotland. When public authorities are looking to charities and the voluntary sector to take on more responsibilities for delivering public services, it raises questions about their status, and particularly their VAT liabilities. If a local authority or a health board provides services, there is no VAT, whereas if such services are provided by a voluntary organisation, there may be VAT liabilities. That may inhibit the transfer arrangements, which might otherwise be welcome. I acknowledge that that probably involves the Treasury and the Scotland Office, but I would appreciate some clarification if possible.

In the past 20 years, we have embarked on a process of restructuring the UK in a radical and decentralised way. As has been said in the past, devolution is a process, not an end product. No piece of legislation ends it. The Scottish National party wants the end to be independence. That is a perfectly respectable position, but for that, it has to win the support of the people of Scotland, which it is conspicuously failing to do. In the meantime, for those of us who want a stronger Scotland, with more control over its affairs and playing its full part in the United Kingdom, the Bill represents a major and significant step forward. It will, in my view, strengthen the United Kingdom, strengthen Scotland’s role and accountability, and perhaps enable the people of Scotland to look to their destiny and say, “We cannot always blame London and other people, we have to use the instruments that we have to help ourselves, and co-operate with others to ensure that we tackle the bigger problems together.” That is what the United Kingdom is about, and also what the devolution home rule settlement is about. They are not incompatible; both are essential. The Bill is a positive step forward, and will be beneficial to Scotland and the United Kingdom.

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[Mrs Laing]

I hesitate to interrupt my hon. Friend, but he has just demonstrated that he is one of the few people who understand, and have carried out an in-depth study of, the relationship between United Kingdom and Scottish finance. He is being modest about his book, but I need not be modest on his behalf. It is an excellent publication, which I have consulted on many occasions. May I ask him to show the House his book and tell us its title, so that every Member in the Chamber—[Interruption.] I do not think he will make any money from it. However, some Members might be better educated in future if they knew more about it. I believe that it is called “It’s Our Money! Who Spends It?”

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. That was a very long intervention. I think that the hon. Lady has given the hon. Gentleman his advertisement; perhaps we can now return to the debate.

[Iain Stewart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I sense a rising demand for my book. Next Christmas is a little way off, but I have a couple of boxes of back copies which I will happily distribute.

As I was saying, part of our research involved examining the way in which other countries—Australia, Germany and Canada—operated financial relationships between state Governments and federal Governments, or provincial Governments, or whatever the term was in those countries. What struck us was that each of those countries has a system that comes close to what the Scotland Bill is proposing to introduce. Certain taxes are levied at the federal level. The example in each country varies, but some taxes are levied at the provincial level—the state level—and sometimes the state level has the power to introduce specific taxes of its own. That is balanced by a form of fiscal transfers between the federal level and the state level. There are perpetual arguments in all those countries about what the right level of spending, taxes, transfers and so on is—we will never get away from those—but on the whole the arrangements are stable. We can draw some comfort from the fact that the lessons from abroad point to the sort of system that the Bill is trying to introduce.

Conversely, there are few examples of a federal or devolved system of government where the lower level has full fiscal autonomy. Our research encountered only one example that came quite close to such an arrangement, which was in the Basque part of Spain. Since we did our work Catalonia has also adopted such an arrangement, but it is still fraught with difficulties. I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence from abroad to warrant the type of policy that the Scottish nationalists wish to introduce.