Corporate Profits: Inflation

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I note that the noble Lord referred to the recent IMF analysis, which looked at the euro area. The Governor of the Bank of England recently said that it does not see a higher trend in non-North Sea corporate profits. Of course, we have the energy price levy in place with respect to North Sea corporate profits, but we keep it under close scrutiny. I am sure the noble Lord will be pleased to know that, yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer met with the main regulators and agreed a new action plan to ensure that consumers are being treated fairly and to help those struggling to meet their bills.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, contrary to what the noble Lord suggests, inflation is entirely a monetary phenomenon; that since 1997 the Bank of England has been responsible for the control of inflation; and that the cause of our present difficulties is the reckless creation of money in recent years?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is right that, when we think about tackling inflation, the number one area is remaining steadfast in our support of the independent Bank of England as it takes action to return inflation to the target of 2% through monetary policy. However, government does have a role to play. We must make difficult but responsible decisions on tax and spending so that we are not adding fuel to the fire. We also need to take longer-term action to bring down prices, whether that is investing in our future energy security or looking at the tightness of our labour market and taking action to get people back to work—for example, through our ground-breaking reforms to childcare.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Report stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak only briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Trenchard. It was commonly known, and widely reported in the newspapers at the time, that following the financial crash of 2008, the EU, which has always had its doubts and scepticism—indeed, hostility—about what it referred to as Anglo-Saxon finance, withdrew the indulgence that it had previously shown towards the City of London as part of the European Union and started to enact legislation that was injurious to the City of London, and quite deliberately so, to the annoyance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, George Osborne, who was reasonably open about his opposition.

This instrument, the alternative funds directive, was the prime example of that, although there were others. It contributed significantly to the fact that there was much more support for Brexit in the City of London than people often wanted to admit at the time, or have admitted since, because they understood that that oppositional turn had taken place and the tide was now flowing against the City. So I agree with my noble friend that it is very difficult to see why, now that we have the opportunity to remove it, we continue not to do so year after year—and there are other examples of that.

I also support the remarks of my noble friend Lady Lawlor. There is a prevalent idea—and not just in financial legislation—that, as we get rid of European Union legislation that we no longer need, we need to replace it with legislation that almost replicates what the European Union was doing. A prime example of that outside the field of financial services is the Procurement Bill, a massively complicated piece of legislation replicating European Union legislation, almost in great detail. In fact, the procurement legislation of the European Union—which was obviously designed for 28 states, not simply for the United Kingdom—was there largely to deal with problems embedded in a history of municipal corruption, which were manifest in various European states but, I am glad to say, of which the United Kingdom has a long, proud history of being pretty free, with one or two exceptions. It was not necessary to replicate it in the detail in which it was done.

There are genuine concerns, certainly among those of us on this side of the House, that insufficient dispatch is being brought to getting rid of injurious legislation that we inherited from the European Union but can now get rid of, and that there is a mentality that the right way to get rid of something is, in effect, simply to re-enact something very similar after a period of consultation. I have great sympathy with what my two noble friends said, and I hope that the Minister, when she replies, will be able to give them some comfort.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that, as my noble friend Lord Trenchard set out, his amendment has not changed since Grand Committee and neither has the Government’s response, which he so adeptly summarised on my behalf. We are not able to support the amendment for those reasons.

While I recognise all three of my noble friends’ strength of feeling on this issue, it is important that we do not inadvertently damage the UK fund sector or its access to international markets. However, I reinforce the Government’s commitment to revoking all EU law in financial services—but with prioritisation and process. I hope that all three of my noble friends will take heart from the fact that we are on the last amendment on Report and near the end of the process by which we can see the Bill on the statute book. We can then begin the process of the revocation of EU law and its replacement—or perhaps not, depending on the individual circumstances—with an approach that is guided by what is best for the UK and our financial services sector, to support growth in that sector and across the whole country. That is something that we can all support as a result of the Bill. I hope that my noble friend is able to withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Monday 13th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I appreciate that it will not be the right route of recourse in many circumstances, but I do not agree that it is never the right form of recourse for people. It is important for people to know that that route is there. For particular cases, it may be appropriate. The noble Baroness has set out why, in many other cases, that is not the form of recourse that people want, which is why we have also set out other points of contact and ways in which to try to resolve these issues, which also act as a data point for the FCA as the regulator to look at issues in particular banks or institutions that are not applying the guidance appropriately.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a very valuable debate. I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in it and, if I do not thank them individually, I hope that they will forgive me, given the length of the debate so far. It is unusual, at the end of such a long debate, to be able to summarise the arguments made in one or two sentences—but I can, because everybody, in effect, said the same thing. That is that we want to see change, and the majority of us want to see legislative change.

Having said that I am not going to refer to individuals, there are two speeches to which I will briefly refer, because they were important. The first was the winding-up speech from the Labour Party Front Bench by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. He spoke very briefly, but his words were very pregnant and important as we approach Report.

The second, which I will deal with at greater length, was the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, who acutely put her finger on a key issue that must be addressed if we are to achieve the legislative change that we want to see. That is about the definition that we choose. When I spoke earlier, I said that there must be a way in which to distinguish satisfactorily between domestic and foreign. In doing this, I will not use the term “non-discriminatory”, because that has legal implications, but we want to do it in a way that is fair and is seen to be fair by everybody who might be affected. At least a couple of suggestions have been made, and they both have merits. This is something to which we need to return as we approach Report, to make sure that we are comfortable with it—but I thought that the noble Baroness put her finger on that very acutely.

Normally, at this stage in a speech of reply, I would turn to a lengthy and careful analysis of the remarks made by the Minister, but she has been subject to a lengthy and careful analysis by practically everybody else in the course of her winding-up speech. So perhaps I will spare her that, and congratulate and thank her for taking, with such good grace, the questions and points that were put to her.

However, I shall refer to two points, the first being the security services. Frankly, I have never come across a case where the police or security services have given up a right to scrutiny that they already have. There is always some excuse for why it is necessary. I find that unconvincing—and the reasons are not, per se, on the grounds that it is the security services, but because of the arguments made here. It is astonishing that there is a special list of people in scope of suspicion of money laundering and terrorism, who happen to be the list in Regulation 35(14), when all of us could supply—even a five year-old could supply—a list of people much more likely to be in scope, who are not being subject to the same scrutiny.

On my second point, I do not think that I am in the wrong here, and suspect that my noble friend has not quite got it right, but am happy to be corrected. What are our international obligations to the FATF, insofar as we have legal obligations to it in a legal sense, given that it is not a legal body?

From this little iPad, I read out and referred very carefully to the current version of recommendation 12. It quite clearly says “foreign”; it places no obligation on the parties to the agreement to do anything about domestic PEPs. Clearly—this is where there may be a degree of confusion—in deciding who is a foreign PEP, you have to make a decision, if you like, that they are not a domestic PEP. Naturally, a sift is therefore required to get to the point of identifying that this is a foreign PEP, but I suspect that too much has been built on that, and there is some suggestion that that sift—are they foreign or are they domestic?—involves some obligation to scrutinise them. However, it simply is not there, so I referred in the course of my noble friend’s speech to the interpretative notes, and there is an interpretative note to recommendation 12, but it deals entirely with life assurance policies.

I think I also heard my noble friend say that recommendation 22 was relevant. That may have been a mishearing on my part but, looking at recommendation 22, it deals almost entirely with casinos, real estate managers and trusts. I do not know why they are all in the same recommendation, but there we are.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Monday 6th February 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely take that back to the department, but I disagree with the noble Baroness that no action is happening on this issue. We talked about access to cash; that is being legislated for in the Bill. On access to low-cost finance, I have talked about the money that the Government have put in to pilot a programme of interest-free finance for those who are most vulnerable. We have talked about access to bank branches. I acknowledge that the initiatives on banking hubs have not been as fast as people would want, but they put forward a solution to an issue that we face. We agree that it is a common issue. I have given examples of what we are doing on digital inclusion. In a later group, we will discuss the importance of mental health. We have put in place the Breathing Space scheme for those who are in problem debt and have mental health problems.

Yes, there is a lot more action to take. I recognise the problem and I will take the noble Baroness’s words back to the department, but we are legislating on some measures in the Bill. I have set out very specific measures that we are taking in other areas. It does not mean that the job is done, but it does mean that action is happening.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and for the support that has been given generally for the amendments tabled. It is true that one or two noble Lords have quibbled about the detail of particular proposals in the amendments, but I think there was universal support for the general principles underlying them.

It falls on me briefly to deal with the quibbles raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, because they were pointed directly at amendments in my name. First, he is right to say that over a period of 30 or 40 years there will be a large number of sociological and economic changes that might explain the appetite for different types of investment among the population at large, but surely he will accept that these are completely dwarfed and made irrelevant if the fact is that you are not allowed to purchase the investments in the first place. The object of the amendment here is to allow this to happen. If you have to put €100,000 on the table to buy a corporate bond, people are excluded in very large measure, and questions of their appetite for different types of risk simply do not arise. If there is routinely no retail element to a new issue of shares, retail investors will not be able to buy those shares, so that is that.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, also picked me up on what I meant by regulated investments. It is true that if the amendment were to come back on Report, it should perhaps be drafted more carefully to say, “investments traded in regulated markets”. I accept that it might have been infelicitously drafted but, to give a more substantive answer, perhaps one should take a more apophatic approach and define what non-regulated investments are. They are things such as betting, spread-betting, contracts for difference and mini-bonds.

The noble Lord is concerned that putting your money into highly rated shares, corporate bonds or gilts might be a little risky and inappropriate for somebody setting aside money for the future, but he has not tabled the amendment that I would hope to see in that case that would have prevented them investing in all these different products, which are there freely available and which people invest in. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, the mini-bond crisis was about perfectly respectable people believing that they were investing in something that looked like a bond, when it was not at all, for a return that appeared attractive. If we do nothing for them and allow that, why are we worried about them investing in real bonds?

Finally, there is the question of whether by agreeing such an objective for the regulators they would in effect be giving advice. I simply refute that: to remove a barrier to investment is not to give advice. I do not know where the noble Lord keeps his money for a rainy day. Perhaps it is all in a savings account somewhere, but I would encourage him to think a little more broadly and to look upon various safe and regular opportunities that would be available to him for his spare cash if he were to swing in behind this amendment. I am sure he would benefit in many ways from that.

I turn briefly to the remarks of my noble friend the Minister. I am grateful to her for the encouragement she has given and will look carefully at what she has said. I am still not wholly persuaded that proceeding on the basis of the Treasury’s current work, rather than by way of legislation, is entirely the best way. I will consider whether these amendments, or one of them, might come back on Report.

On the broader question of the financial inclusion of people who are marginalised by the financial system—I hope I am not presuming too much if I speak for the Committee at large—my noble friend might want to reflect a little further on whether a process of engagement with noble Lords on all sides of the Committee who have brought these issues up would be beneficial between now and the issue returning on Report. I know that it is not in her personal nature to sound negative and unwelcoming, but her speech had that tone of saying that everything was a little too complicated and might have an unintended consequence. Well, anything might have an unintended consequence; by definition, one would not know. I wonder whether she might consider some process of engagement on the issue, because I think the feeling around the Committee is quite strong. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Defined Benefit Pension Funds

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the extent of Liability Driven Investment strategies in the management of Defined Benefit pension funds, and (2) the consequences that may arise for (a) His Majesty’s Government’s ability to issue new gilts, and (b) the management of inflation.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

Defined benefit pensions use liability-driven investment strategies to protect themselves from adverse interest rate and inflation movements. The Pensions Regulator estimates that 60% of defined benefit pension funds have LDIs. The Debt Management Office’s gilt operations are running smoothly, with good levels of demand; its 2022-23 financing remit will be revised alongside the Autumn Statement on 17 November.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend back to the Front Bench. If the pension funds were entering into those risky strategies with a view to eliminating their exposure to interest rate changes, it did not quite work, did it? The Government need to sell gilts to borrow money for their activities. The Bank of England needs to sell gilts to start to reverse quantitative easing and to bear down on inflation. Both those activities were threatened by the sudden discovery of what can only be described as risky and dodgy investment strategies at private pension schemes a few weeks ago. So what I and other noble Lords would like to hear from my noble friend is that those financial positions have now been reversed out of by the pension funds—that they are not pursuing those strategies—so that this does not happen again, and the Government and the Bank can continue with their vital activities.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, LDI strategies can be used as a risk-management strategy for pension funds, and I would expect them to continue to do so. There were specific circumstances which the Bank stepped in to address. But my noble friend is right that it is important that we reflect on what happened to those particular funds in that period and make sure that the Bank of England and the Financial Policy Committee have the right oversight to ensure ongoing stability in these markets.

Covid-19: Death Duties and Inheritance Tax

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we seek to balance the contribution inheritance taxes make to the Exchequer in paying for our public finances with the quite legitimate desire of people to pass on assets to the next generation. We believe we have got that balance right.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a callow view, even in some parts of Her Majesty’s Treasury, that there is pile of wealth out there and all we have to do is tax it and all our problems, such as Covid and social care, will be solved? Wiser heads know that most such efforts result in perverse outcomes and hard political cases—capital flight and little old ladies losing their homes— such that, in the end, more harm is done to the economy and the Government’s reputation than the pathetic yield justifies.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is perhaps referring to the balance in priorities that we need to address when looking at tax rates. We raise a relatively high amount from inheritance tax and assets compared to peer countries, and we believe that we have got that balance right.

Central Bank Digital Currency

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Moylan

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, it is no surprise that China is a leader in central bank digital currency because essentially this involves us all having a bank account with the central bank over which the Government can, without the most rigorous safeguards, maintain panoptic surveillance. In China it is used as a means of social and economic control. Will my noble friend agree that the British people, jealous of their liberties, should be very anxious about the introduction of such a project here?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend on the importance of privacy considerations in these matters. We know that more than 80% of central banks globally are doing some form of work on CBDCs and different nations will take different approaches. In the UK, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Bank of England are looking at all the public policy considerations of a CBDC very carefully, including privacy.