European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I must declare an interest as someone who lives and works in France a lot of the time. My aim today is to give a voice to the UK citizens in the EU, who have been totally ignored by the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said in his introduction that the Bill protects the rights of citizens, but my noble friend Lord Teverson said quite correctly that it is disgraceful how little time has been spent on the debate about UK citizens in the EU. The Bill has diminished some rights and removed others—for example, the right to live and work anywhere in the EU—and many rights are now uncertain, such as pension upgrades. My noble friend Lady Hamwee and I have tabled an amendment to try to improve this situation.

I have heard some criticism that that should not be done in the Lords. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is not in his place, because I could give him a good reason why it should be: nothing about UK citizens’ rights in the EU was even debated in the Commons last week. It was not even mentioned and the amendment was not allowed. If there has been no debate about their issues in the elected Chamber, we really have to do our duty and talk about them here.

Maybe the Government thought it was rich retirees who live in the EU, but the Office for National Statistics figures show that that is certainly not the case. Two-thirds of these people living in the EU are between 15 and 64; they are students and working people with normal jobs. The remaining third, who are retirees, are not particularly well off. Whether or not they get a pension upgrade will be a matter of severe concern to them, especially as many of them paid into their pension pots in this country for their entire lives, went abroad perhaps in 2010 and suddenly now find that the contract which they had with the Government about their pensions is not to be honoured.

I wonder if the Government have a current list of EU member states’ intentions to recognise qualifications on a reciprocal basis, because that again is extremely important to working people. Do the Government even have accurate numbers of exactly how many UK citizens there are in the EU? The UN seems to say that there are 1.22 million but the Office for National Statistics said that there were 784,900. However, a rather good article in the Independent newspaper on 7 May last year showed that the ONS statistics are actually a bit dubious. The fact is that maybe the Government have no idea what the numbers actually are.

My amendments to the Bill will focus on the pensions upgrade and health cover, which is a great concern. I will not go into those now because I will move the amendments in Committee. Of course reciprocal agreements, if they had been done on a bilateral basis much earlier by the Government, could have answered many of these issues. I understand the stand-off between the UK and the Commission at that point, but the Government could have pursued it and this would no longer be an issue. What we have are individuals who at the moment, at absolute best, can continue life but cannot progress. They cannot get a job, a promotion, a new mortgage or additional health cover because of all the uncertainties.

We have heard that the Government have a huge mandate. In my opinion, that should be secure enough for them to rise above the petty politics of not letting the Lords have any amendments and be able to admit that some of the Lords amendments are fair, just and a good idea.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. Around 1.2 million British pensioners live abroad. Just over half have annual uprating of their pensions as they would if they still lived in the UK. They are in one of the 48 countries where the UK Government apply an annual uprating, and over half those countries are in the EU.

In September the Department for Work and Pensions made an announcement on the extension of uprating for a further three years to those pensioners in the EU. I quote from its press release:

“Nearly half a million people living in the EU will continue to have their UK State Pension increased every year for the next 3 years in the event of a no deal exit from the EU”.


There is no explanation of why it is three years as opposed to permanently, or any other figure. It goes on to say:

“During this 3-year period the UK government plans to negotiate a new arrangement with the EU to ensure that uprating continues.”


I stress “plans to negotiate”. The question arises as to what happens if those negotiations fail. Along with the question of why the figure of three years was selected, there is a possibility that the negotiations will fail. There is also no explanation of why the uprating should not apply to all the pensions affected for those pensioners’ lifetimes.

My noble friend Lady Hamwee has mentioned the fact that if all those pensioners returned to the UK there would be substantial costs for public services, not least the NHS. I hope that when the Government calculate costs they also include the benefit that accrues to the Treasury from UK pensioners living outside the UK who do not directly use those services.

There is of course a question about those UK pensioners who move into EU countries after 1 February, because at present it would appear that they do not have a right to an uprated pension. I seek the Minister’s assurance on that point. UK expatriate pensioners need and deserve greater certainty when they are living outside the UK in the EU. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that it is government policy to uprate their pensions permanently once the three-year period is over.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I put my name to this amendment and I remind noble Lords of my interests in that I spend a considerable amount of time in France. I should add that I have health cover in France, so when I speak on health, I do not have an interest in being covered by the UK.

First, I ask the Minister if he still agrees with his noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie who, when summing up at Second Reading on Monday, said:

“Reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, to the status of UK citizens in the EU. However, that is … not a matter of domestic law and is therefore not a matter for the Bill”.—[Official Report, 13/1/20; col. 552.]


The fact is that the Government have chosen not to include in the Bill either the pensions upgrade or anything about health cover; it is a choice. The Bill could encompass the rights of UK citizens should the Government choose or should we, for example, win this amendment. At the moment, it is the Government’s choice to exclude any cover for UK citizens from the Bill, rather than a matter of fact.

Secondly, I want to speak about health. Many UK citizens working abroad in the EU will have health cover by virtue of their occupation or if they are a dependant of somebody in an occupation that qualifies, so they are fine. The problem is for those who are not covered by that either because they have not yet qualified for settled status but hope to—for example, those who have been in a country for less than the qualifying period; in France that would be five years, so perhaps someone has been there for three years not five—or because their financial status is questionable because of low income. What cover from the UK can those UK citizens expect? Some are likely to have ongoing conditions such as cancer and some will develop illnesses between now and the period in which they would qualify, and certainly by the end of December.

Up until now, the S1 provision has dealt with this for a significant number of people; can the Minister say how many people are actually covered by it? If only 1% of UK citizens in the EU are thus adversely affected, that is still 10,000 people with enormous worries about their health cover. For some, this is bound to mean that they will have to return to the UK, where their healthcare will be 100% covered by the NHS. When the Minister replies, could he outline just what provisional arrangements will be in place until the arrangements in whichever EU state those UK nationals are in finally take effect because they have their settled status?

The last point I want to make is that I do not think that, at the moment, the Government have done nearly enough to publicise the fact that UK citizens living in the EU will not be able to access NHS services for free when visiting the UK after this, unless they have a UK-issued S1 form. The problem is that the Government have not done nearly enough to publicise what will happen, country by country. I accept that the embassies have done some outreach work and have embassy pages, but in many cases those are pretty generic and the situation alters very much country by country. Again, at Second Reading, I asked if the Government would provide information on where reciprocal arrangements were in place with the EU states—for example, for qualifications. The Minister made no reference to that in his summing up. The absolute least the Government could do for UK citizens in Europe is to provide a comprehensive country-by-country guide covering all the issues that concern UK citizens abroad.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I have not yet spoken on the Bill, preferring to leave it to the experts —of whom there appears to be quite a lot on these Benches—but I want to speak in support of these two amendments which my noble friends have tabled.

I have a holiday house in Languedoc—not the fashionable part of France. Every time I have gone there during the last three years since the referendum, the people who live and work there, as my noble friends have described, have said to me, “Come on, you’re a Member of Parliament, even in the upper House. Can you tell us what is going on? What are our rights?” I have given them a truthful answer: “I’m sorry. I haven’t a clue and, what is more, neither have the Government”. That is the position we have arrived at today. They have all made the point that during the last three years we have had no fewer than three different Cabinet Ministers responsible for exiting the EU. That was their job, but never, in the whole time of our membership of the European Union, have we ever had a Cabinet Minister whose sole responsibility was to stay within the EU and to make sure it developed in such a way that it improved our relationship with it and that its terms and condition and its new regulations were those that we found acceptable. That was an extraordinary omission that we made during that time.

Some of the people whom I have met are thinking, as one of my noble friends said, taking out French citizenship. If they have lived there for more than five years, they can do that. Another one has found an Irish grandparent and is thinking of taking out Irish citizenship. It is a tragedy that we are possibly losing these people and losing them from the citizenship of our country. It is not desirable at all. A lot of them are aware that I took an active part in the 1975 referendum. I keep pointing out to them that I am sorry because there was a huge difference between the two referenda. In 1975, there were huge public meetings in every town and city in the land; there were huge arguments about our role in Europe, and about the reasons why we were having European unity and the European Economic Community as it then was. This time, it was all about a grubby figure on the side of a bus. It was a very different atmosphere, and one they found very difficult to understand. These people have been treated rather shabbily, and I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will be able to give them some words of comfort.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

My amendment might not be exactly the best way of achieving what I am seeking, but I would like an indication from the Government that they are working on this and are positively considering whether we should seek associate membership of each of these agencies or an equivalent arrangement post 31 December. I hope that the Minister can at least give me some clarity and reassurance on these issues. I beg to move.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his dogged persistence in pursuing this matter. There is no doubt that, as we move beyond the end of this year, we will start to lose out on all the joint research on the issues around novel foods, scientific research into diseases and threats, pollution, climate change and so on—all the things that scientists are working on—unless we move ahead in the way that the noble Lord has described. It would be criminal if at a time when we are all facing so many common threats, particularly from climate change, we started reinventing the wheel. We do not have the scientific capacity to reproduce the sort of work that goes on at the Joint Research Centre in Ispra in Italy, for example, which is the combined research of the cutting-edge scientists of so many countries.

I doubt that it will be in the lifetime of this Government that we will be able to measure their failure to do the sort of work that the noble Lord is suggesting but, unless a solution is reached along the lines that his amendment suggests, we will certainly suffer in five, seven or 10 years’ time.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not the first time we have debated the options for future UK participation in EU agencies and I doubt it will be the last. However, it remains a vital issue, and one where the Government and the Opposition remain at odds.

We have always been clear that, while it would require ongoing payments to the EU, it is in the national interest for the UK to continue working within or alongside EU agencies. These are the bodies that were established with the UK’s blessing, and indeed often at its insistence, to share best practice and promote efficiency by avoiding unnecessary duplication. Participation often comes with access to shared databases or alert systems. These are particularly important for food safety, product recalls and so on.

Under Mrs May, the Government shifted from point-blank refusal to even debate the issue to half-hearted commitments to exploring their options. Later they edged towards continued participation in some agencies if the price and terms were right. All the while we edge towards our exit without any kind of clarity. Your Lordships’ House and its committees have previously explored the options and precedents at some length. I hope the Government will have undertaken their own assessments. The Minister will know that it is not only possible for the UK to continue as part of many agencies but that that would be actively welcomed by our friends and colleagues across the EU 27.

As with the last group of amendments, I know the Minister will fall back on the fact that these are matters for the next phase of the negotiations. I also know that the Government will resist this amendment, as they have done with every other amendment that we have debated in recent days. I strongly disagree with that approach but it is the Minister’s prerogative. However, the suggestion from my noble friend Lord Whitty is a sensible one. All he seeks is an assurance that Parliament will be provided with information on the Government’s plans for future participation in each EU agency and will have the chance to debate those decisions. I have no doubt that your Lordships’ House’s committees will continue to carry out inquiries in these specific subject areas, and those reports will continue to be useful and give us the chance to talk about specifics, but I would like a commitment from the Government that they will be proactive in their approach, providing a speedy response and ensuring that sufficient time is allocated for discussion.

In my career I have been a much-regulated person, and the value of effective regulation when it comes to safety, trading, smoothness and so on is overwhelming. Every now and then we get a sad reminder of that when it breaks down, and unfortunately we have had this recently in the aviation industry. To take on the sheer complexity of certificating aeroplanes, for instance—in this case the Boeing 737 Max—you need an enormous level of competence and real political clout. The FAA failed to supervise Boeing successfully despite being a body in a big country which had all the resources to do it. The European aviation safety organisation did have that size. We have to recognise that to discharge these responsibilities without being part of a larger agency will be an enormous challenge, requiring enormous resources.

I really hope that the Government will take the general thrust of my noble friend Lord Whitty’s amendment and recognise just how valuable it is to retain membership of the European agencies in one form or another. The chances of generating our own capability to have the same impact on safety in particular, but also reliability, co-operation and so on, are, in my view, close to negligible.