European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Our amendment seeks to make that commitment legislatively—if that is a word—certain because there is considerable anxiety among people who chose to move within the EU, understanding that their entitlements were secure, but now finding that they may be standing not on a cliff edge but on the brink of a chasm. I look forward to hearing what the Government are doing so that UK citizens are reassured and can be confident that they can continue on the course that they have chosen. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. Around 1.2 million British pensioners live abroad. Just over half have annual uprating of their pensions as they would if they still lived in the UK. They are in one of the 48 countries where the UK Government apply an annual uprating, and over half those countries are in the EU.

In September the Department for Work and Pensions made an announcement on the extension of uprating for a further three years to those pensioners in the EU. I quote from its press release:

“Nearly half a million people living in the EU will continue to have their UK State Pension increased every year for the next 3 years in the event of a no deal exit from the EU”.


There is no explanation of why it is three years as opposed to permanently, or any other figure. It goes on to say:

“During this 3-year period the UK government plans to negotiate a new arrangement with the EU to ensure that uprating continues.”


I stress “plans to negotiate”. The question arises as to what happens if those negotiations fail. Along with the question of why the figure of three years was selected, there is a possibility that the negotiations will fail. There is also no explanation of why the uprating should not apply to all the pensions affected for those pensioners’ lifetimes.

My noble friend Lady Hamwee has mentioned the fact that if all those pensioners returned to the UK there would be substantial costs for public services, not least the NHS. I hope that when the Government calculate costs they also include the benefit that accrues to the Treasury from UK pensioners living outside the UK who do not directly use those services.

There is of course a question about those UK pensioners who move into EU countries after 1 February, because at present it would appear that they do not have a right to an uprated pension. I seek the Minister’s assurance on that point. UK expatriate pensioners need and deserve greater certainty when they are living outside the UK in the EU. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that it is government policy to uprate their pensions permanently once the three-year period is over.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I put my name to this amendment and I remind noble Lords of my interests in that I spend a considerable amount of time in France. I should add that I have health cover in France, so when I speak on health, I do not have an interest in being covered by the UK.

First, I ask the Minister if he still agrees with his noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie who, when summing up at Second Reading on Monday, said:

“Reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, to the status of UK citizens in the EU. However, that is … not a matter of domestic law and is therefore not a matter for the Bill”.—[Official Report, 13/1/20; col. 552.]


The fact is that the Government have chosen not to include in the Bill either the pensions upgrade or anything about health cover; it is a choice. The Bill could encompass the rights of UK citizens should the Government choose or should we, for example, win this amendment. At the moment, it is the Government’s choice to exclude any cover for UK citizens from the Bill, rather than a matter of fact.

Secondly, I want to speak about health. Many UK citizens working abroad in the EU will have health cover by virtue of their occupation or if they are a dependant of somebody in an occupation that qualifies, so they are fine. The problem is for those who are not covered by that either because they have not yet qualified for settled status but hope to—for example, those who have been in a country for less than the qualifying period; in France that would be five years, so perhaps someone has been there for three years not five—or because their financial status is questionable because of low income. What cover from the UK can those UK citizens expect? Some are likely to have ongoing conditions such as cancer and some will develop illnesses between now and the period in which they would qualify, and certainly by the end of December.

Up until now, the S1 provision has dealt with this for a significant number of people; can the Minister say how many people are actually covered by it? If only 1% of UK citizens in the EU are thus adversely affected, that is still 10,000 people with enormous worries about their health cover. For some, this is bound to mean that they will have to return to the UK, where their healthcare will be 100% covered by the NHS. When the Minister replies, could he outline just what provisional arrangements will be in place until the arrangements in whichever EU state those UK nationals are in finally take effect because they have their settled status?

The last point I want to make is that I do not think that, at the moment, the Government have done nearly enough to publicise the fact that UK citizens living in the EU will not be able to access NHS services for free when visiting the UK after this, unless they have a UK-issued S1 form. The problem is that the Government have not done nearly enough to publicise what will happen, country by country. I accept that the embassies have done some outreach work and have embassy pages, but in many cases those are pretty generic and the situation alters very much country by country. Again, at Second Reading, I asked if the Government would provide information on where reciprocal arrangements were in place with the EU states—for example, for qualifications. The Minister made no reference to that in his summing up. The absolute least the Government could do for UK citizens in Europe is to provide a comprehensive country-by-country guide covering all the issues that concern UK citizens abroad.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shipley]

Can the Minister clarify something that I think he said? He referred to UK citizens who are not yet of retirement age but become entitled to a UK state pension and then move to one of the 27 countries of the EU. Will their pensions be uprated?

[Lord Bethell]

I am not sure that I completely understand the question. If they have qualified for the UK state pension while still in the UK, of course they will take their pension with them. If they are currently living in the EU but contemplating retiring in that country, the arrangement that we have had means that their benefits will continue while they are in that country. I hope that answers the question.

[Lord Shipley]

My question was whether, if someone who is currently working and then retires, receives the UK state pension outside the European Union after 1 February but then moves to an EU country after that date, their pension will be uprated in that country. Is that what the Minister said?

[Lord Bethell]

That is a question of sufficient complexity that I am reluctant to commit to an answer at the Dispatch Box, but I will be glad to come back to the noble Lord with a detailed response.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, made a good suggestion when referring to the concerns of EU citizens living in the UK about their arrangements. I reassure those citizens that the arrangements in place will preserve their current situation, so they should feel confident and reassured. Her suggestion of a country-by-country guide is a good one, which I welcome, and I will pass it on to the department as a recommendation.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh talked about the fair recognition of pension payments in the round. I cannot comment on the precise arrangements for her pensions, but I reassure her that everything that is contributed to pension pots in any EU country before the end of the implementation period will be recognised as contributions to the pension.

Lastly, my noble friend Lady Altmann talked movingly about the uprating of pensions for those who live in countries with no suitable treaty. That is way beyond the scope of this agreement. I have sympathy for those people who live in countries where there is no pensions treaty, but as she quite rightly explained, they did make that move knowing what the arrangement was. Bringing in uprating for such people would add an enormous cost to the Treasury of around £600 million a year, but it is something that remains on the Government’s radar screen.

The new clause proposed by Amendment 37 is well intentioned and is entirely supported in spirit by the Government, and that is why we have put in place the arrangements set out in the Bill. However, it is unnecessary as the agreements that the Bill will implement safeguard both healthcare and state pension rights for UK nationals living in the EU, and therefore I will ask the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to withdraw it.

Before I do so, I will address the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on his amendment. I thank him, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and others who also spoke to it. The proposed new clause is a well-intentioned and creative move. I acknowledge that there are some people in the EU, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who would like such a measure to be enacted. But I want to be really clear with the Committee: EU treaty provisions on this matter are very straightforward. Only the nationals of EU member states are able to hold EU citizenship. When the UK ceases to be a member of the EU on 31 January, UK nationals will no longer be able to hold EU citizenship. For those who have dual nationality with another EU member state—I would guess that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is in this group—it will be different. However, those with only British citizenship will not be EU citizens.

We have worked hard to ensure that the effect on people’s lives will be minimised. The withdrawal agreement we have reached is a fair and reciprocal agreement with the EU on citizens’ rights. It provides certainty and a means for all UK citizens living in the EU and EU citizens resident here in the UK at the end of the implementation period to be able to continue to live their lives broadly as they do now. These rights as provided by the withdrawal agreement will take the status of international law, having a direct effect in EU member states under EU law and in the UK under Clause 5 of the Bill. These provisions are meaningful and give people who are concerned about this the security that they need.