Environment Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

Finally, I take this opportunity to thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for Amendment 80A. His support and interest in this matter is greatly personally appreciated, and I reassure him that the UK Government will certainly engage with the Scottish Government when developing reserved policies that have an impact on Scotland. This engagement corresponds to the memorandum of understanding on devolution—namely, that all four Administrations are committed to the principle of good communication with each other, especially where one Administration’s work may have some bearing on the responsibilities of another. Over half the measures in the Bill are joint with the devolved Administrations, as a result of extensive consultation and engagement over a number of years and months. I hope this has reassured noble Lords, and I beg them not to press their amendments.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received two requests to speak after the Minister, from the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I will call them in that order.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with care to what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said about the precautionary principle, because this is hugely important to conservation and land management. I note that my noble friend the Minister did not respond specifically to the question he posed. While he is considering an answer to that, I am going to ask him a couple of questions too. How will the precautionary principle be interpreted by government? Will it be on the basis of a hazard approach or of a risk approach? The two are very different. It has to be a balanced approach; I think the courts have indicated that this is the right way forward. He will know that the precautionary principle, depending on how you interpret it, can stop some vital research. His department, Defra, has been guilty of stopping research because it used the precautionary principle. If we are trying to help biodiversity and conservation, we must be allowed to carry out sensible, controlled research to try to get to the right answer. If he is going to use—it is probably the wrong word—political bias against a particular aspect and say, “You cannot do research into that area”, then we are not being of any benefit to conservation or land management.

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[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I shall take that intervention as inadvertent—although the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has reappeared.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

I am not quite sure whether I am audible or not. I just want to thank the Minister for his kind remarks about my support for Amendment 80. As far as my Amendment 80A is concerned, I hope he will reflect carefully on what I said and perhaps come back with something on Report but, for the time being, that amendment is not moved.

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Clause 18, as amended, agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, we come now to the group consisting of Amendment 81A. Anyone wishing to press this to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Clause 19: Statements about Bills containing new environmental law

Amendment 81A

Moved by

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to support Amendment 81A, which I have co-signed. I support entirely the comments made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, in moving it.

I want to raise a very narrow point with my noble friend the Minister. It relates to the second part of Clause 19(8). Subsection (8) states:

“‘Existing environmental law’, in relation to a statement under this section, means environmental law existing at the time that the Bill to which the statement relates is introduced into the House in question, whether or not the environmental law is in force.”


This posed quite a question at the time of the withdrawal Act and the subsequent statutory instruments on retained EU law, particularly as the water framework directive was being considered and revised. Unfortunately, we had an empty-chair policy at the time, so were not at the council meetings when this was discussed, but it begs the question of which water framework directive, for example, is now enshrined in UK law. Is it the one that we previously agreed to or is it the one that was subsequently revised at the time of our departure from the European Union?

The second and last question that I have for my noble friend the Minister relates to a jolly good read which I commend to him: the 22nd and final report of the European Union Committee, Beyond Brexit: Food, Environment, Energy and Health. It was adopted by the European Union Sub-Committee, on which I was privileged to serve. In paragraph 148, the report sets out that the trade and co-operation agreement

“negotiated by the Government will affect the policy choices available to devolved administrations and legislatures in areas of devolved competence including the environment.”

That perhaps relates more to the previous amendment, Amendment 80A, but also to the amendment before us now.

The report goes on:

“There are already diverging environment and climate change goals across the UK, which could indicate challenges ahead. We urge the Government to address any concerns raised by the devolved administrations regarding the TCA’s environment and climate change provisions—via the Common Frameworks programme or other routes—as fully and promptly as possible.”


Scotland has now set up its equivalent to the office for environmental protection, the name of which escapes me completely—I think it is Environment Services Scotland—so it has an operation that is already up and running. We will not have ours in place until July. Have any issues already arisen in this regard, as we are slightly later in our programme than we would have hoped to be? Also, have any of these issues been identified and raised under the common frameworks programme? That is in addition to my earlier question about, for example, the water framework directive.

With those few remarks, I am delighted to lend my support to Amendment 81A.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I understood that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, had withdrawn from this debate—but she is shaking her head at me, so I assume that she wishes to speak. I think I should make it clear that her name is listed as having withdrawn; however, I will call her now.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Thank you. There was an administrative snafu, which I understood had been sorted out. I apologise. I did not mean to withdraw from this debate and thought that it had been fixed.

I will be very brief anyway. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and to thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for this amendment. I wish to speak to it briefly to highlight the way in which it helps to stress and shows the interaction between this Bill and so many other Bills, and the fact that the environment is now part of everything we do and there will be environmental impacts on all legislation.

What we are talking about here is a way of finding joined-up government, so that we do not have the siloed thinking that says, “This is environment and this is security and this is education”. My understanding of what the noble Lords who tabled this amendment are trying to do is get a functional way to do this—and it is very important that we do, so I thank them for their efforts. We need to make sure that Clause 19 really works for the future operation of the law and of government.

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Clause 20 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 82. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Amendment 82

Moved by

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, we come now to the group beginning with Amendment 89. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Amendment 89

Moved by

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to move Amendment 89 and speak to Amendment 90. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, for his support. I also thank the Law Society of Scotland for suggesting that this was worthy of probing by way of an amendment at this stage. It follows on from the little debate we have just had.

As my noble friend the Minister said in summing up the last group of amendments—and as Schedule 1 very clearly sets out—the appointment of a chief executive is to be by non-executive members of the OEP and the other executive members are to be appointed by the OEP. There are regrettably, and unusually, a couple of typos in the amendment on the Marshalled List. Clearly, it should not state that “he member” but “the member” has become insolvent or has been convicted of a criminal offence. I just mention that in the rare event that the Committee might want to adopt the two amendments, which—I hasten to add—I do not intend to press at this stage.

I have tabled these two amendments to introduce a definition for being unable or unfit to remain a member. This would give greater legal certainty as to the circumstances in which a person may be removed from office as a non-executive member of the OEP. As present, the Bill does not provide further detail as to the basis for determining whether a member is unable or unfit to carry out their functions. The amendment specifies that this would be the case when a member becomes insolvent or has been convicted of a criminal offence. The amendment is intended to bring greater specificity to the provisions of the Bill while still providing sufficiently wide scope to take account of other circumstances where the individual is otherwise unable or unfit to discharge the functions of a member or is unsuitable to continue as a member. I understand that there are similar appointee-removal processes in relation to other bodies, such as the Scottish Police Services Authority, set up under the Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006, and the Scottish Legal Complaints Commission, set up under the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 2007.

On Amendment 90, where prior notice should be given for the removal of such a person, it is intended that the Secretary of State would consult with the chair of the OEP in this regard. This would impose a duty, which I understand is currently not in the Bill, on the Secretary of State to consult with the chair of the OEP prior to giving notice to remove a non-executive member from office. The reason for this is that the consultation provides for an additional layer of scrutiny; the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult with the chair of the OEP will help to ensure openness and transparency regarding the Secretary of State’s actions.

Does any procedure exist that I am not currently aware of whereby such a person deemed unfit can be disqualified from holding office in these arrangements? What procedure is intended other than what I have set out in Amendments 89 and 90? With those few words, I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I had thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, intended to speak, but she is not in her place. The noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, has withdrawn, so I call the next speaker, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I thought I understood the intention of my noble friend Lady McIntosh in these amendments and I tried hard to understand her explanation, but I am not certain that I fully understood and I too look forward to hearing what my noble friend the Minister will have to say.

Some discretion should be given to the Secretary of State, even in the case of a person who may have been insolvent or convicted of a criminal offence possibly decades ago. As noble Lords are aware, many of those who have been convicted of a criminal offence and punished for it have often gone on to make a positive contribution to society years later. It would set a bad precedent to legislate that they should be for ever denied opportunities for which they might otherwise be considered.

Regarding Amendment 90, I cannot conceive of any circumstances in which the Secretary of State would not consult with the chairman of the OEP prior to removing a non-executive member from the board. If the Secretary of State does not have the kind of relationship with the chairman where they are in regular contact on the operations of the OEP and the composition of the board, it would surely follow that either the chairman or the Secretary of State was in the wrong job. I do not think that such prescriptive details as my noble friend proposes should be included in the Bill.

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Amendments 90 and 91 not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, we come now to the group beginning with Amendment 92. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 92

Moved by

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[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, after my remarks a moment ago on the independence of the OEP, it will come as no surprise to your Lordships that I strongly support the principle that the OEP should have as much financial independence as possible and that I therefore support these amendments.

Funding is vital. I note that the correspondence from Natural England that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, just read out could equally be replicated in correspondence from, I suspect, the Environment Agency to Defra, because the same incredible cut—up to 70%, I believe—has happened to the Environment Agency. So funding is absolutely vital for the proper operation of all these NDPBs. In my view, the OEP’s budget should not be at the discretion of the Secretary of State for Defra.

I believe that the public at large will take a great deal of interest in the work of the OEP—if not, they certainly should do—so anything that makes the OEP’s finances more transparent to the public, more long-term and more the business of Parliament rather than at the whim of the department gets my approval.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington.

I support the amendments in this group. It is worthy of note that the Government have agreed that,

“to ensure its financial independence, the OEP will be provided with a five year indicative budget which is formally ring fenced by HM Treasury within any given Spending Review period.”

However, it needs to be much more concrete than that.

This is comparable with how some other bodies are given long-term financial certainty; for example, the Treasury has made a similar commitment for the OBR. In its letter to the OBR setting out a multiannual funding commitment, the Treasury noted that this approach

“supports the OBR’s independence and ability to manage its resources effectively in the medium term. This approach for independent fiscal institutions is consistent with international best practice, strengthening institutional independence through delegated budgetary autonomy.”

The Government have said that they will make this commitment on the OEP in Parliament; I would like to see the Minister make it to your Lordships’ House today in his response to this group of amendments.

It would also be helpful if the Minister could clarify that the Government’s position remains as set out in their response to the EFRA Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny, which stated:

“In order to ensure its financial independence, the OEP will be provided with a five year indicative budget which is formally ring fenced by HM Treasury within any given Spending Review period.”


This was repeated in the Government’s Environmental Governance Factsheet, which was published in March 2020. However, since that time, the Government appear to have wavered on the commitment for the long-term budget to be for five years, leaving such matters to political rather than legislative commitments.

As per Amendment 93, I urge the Minister to confirm that the Government remain committed to providing the OEP with a five-year indicative budget. That must be enshrined in legislation. In such circumstances, I support Amendments 93 and 92, which would require the OEP to prepare a five-year indicative budget that would be subject to public consultation, and allow it to request in-budget increases.

If the OEP is to work strategically, it will require financial security enshrined in legislation. A binding commitment to provide a multi-annual budget would help to avoid the slow but significant funding decline that many of Defra’s arm’s-length bodies have suffered over recent years and provide certainty of ongoing funding levels.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches support both amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, has indicated that hers is a probing amendment. We support the need for a clear statement of the financial independence of the OEP because, by that means, we can be clear that it has sufficient funds for its function.

I very much support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, about the need for its budgeting to be published. Parliamentarians have often had to rely on other opportunities, such as that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, when the chair of Natural England made public comments at a Select Committee down the other end, or charities getting information by FoI about the funding shortfalls of the Environment Agency. That should not be the way we have to find out about the budgets of these important bodies. That information should be available to parliamentarians; it should be published and we should all be able to see it clearly.

I echo my colleague, my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie. In his remarks at the end, I hope the Minister will say more about the current budget for the OEP. I know it is in its interim phase, and I understand that its first board meeting will be this week. It has been suggested that, in its initial year, staffing levels will be around 25 members. Clearly, that will not be its final staff resource level, but if the Minister could indicate the scale of OEP staffing next year, that would give us a clearer idea of the capacity of this critical body to deliver the functions we all need. I hope he will say a few words about scaling up the budget of the body for next year.

In closing, I agree with other Members on the principle that a five-year budget associated with a work plan be published and put in the Bill.

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Amendment 93 not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

We come now to the group beginning with Amendment 94. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Amendment 94

Moved by