Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, I shall speak to Amendment 50. The board has a duty towards improvement in the quality of services, in particular the prevention and treatment of illness, and the protection of and improvements to public health. The board must have regard to documents,

“published by the Secretary of State for the purpose of this section”,

and NICE quality standards as appropriate. So far, so good, but what is completely omitted from this process is input in the form of the voice of the public and of patients—that of HealthWatch England. This organisation is best placed to look at how services improve on the ground. Its role is to gather evidence from patients about services and then to offer advice to the board, so the omission seems quite strange. I wonder if my noble friend could confirm that this is actually an accidental omission. We know that the patient is seen to be paramount throughout the Bill, so it seems odd that the patient is missed out of this element. I would also be grateful if he could confirm that HealthWatch England will be adequately resourced and able to use information and advice from local healthwatch.

[Lord Beecham]

Does the noble Baroness agree that another possible source of information would be the health scrutiny committees of local authorities, which could well consider representations from local healthwatch and, in any case, report on how the service is performing in their area?

[Baroness Jolly]

Certainly local government will play a key role in all this, so the scrutiny committees would seem to be a sensible place to take information from, which would then work in with their local healthwatch.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, let me begin by setting out what we intend for the standing rules. We intend to use the rules to replicate core elements of the current system that need to be maintained in the future. For example, the standing rules will be used to provide the legal basis for certain patient rights as set out in the NHS constitution. Amendment 38, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will do three things. First, it seeks to require the Secretary of State to make standing rules as opposed to enabling him to do so. Secondly, it would require rather than enable him to update the standing rules no less than once a year; and finally, the Secretary of State would be obliged to share the standing rules with the relevant committee of the House of Commons for consideration at least two months before they are laid in Parliament. I hope that I can help the noble Lord here.

It is already our intention to make standing rules and to review them on an annual basis alongside the mandate. Where it is necessary, the Secretary of State would update the standing rules. Imposing a requirement on him to produce regulations regardless of whether an update is necessary will introduce what I believe is a needless administrative and bureaucratic burden on the system, and we surely do not want that. The amendment would also set out a requirement in legislation for the Health Select Committee to examine the proposed standing rules. I hope that I can reassure him that the committee would have the opportunity to examine proposals, and that Ministers in the department would engage constructively with the committee on any inquiry. However, I do not think that it is usual practice for legislation to set expectations as to the subject that Select Committees should examine or what areas committees should focus on. I should also remind the House that any regulations laid in Parliament are also considered by the Merits Committee of your Lordships’ House, as well as the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

I turn now to the remaining issues. I think that it would be helpful to set out what we aim to achieve with the mandate. The mandate will bring with it an unprecedented degree of transparency, scrutiny and accountability to government policy for the NHS. For the first time, the Government’s core objectives for the NHS commissioning system will be subject to full public consultation.

A number of the amendments in this group, both government and from your Lordships, focus on the parliamentary scrutiny of the mandate. Amendments 41 and 46, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, would make the mandate subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and require the Secretary of State to lay the mandate in Parliament in draft. I hope that I can reassure your Lordships that we have already built in sufficient parliamentary scrutiny of the mandate to render the amendments unnecessary.

Following the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendations, the Government have tabled Amendments 45 and 47, to which I now speak, to allow specific parliamentary scrutiny of the “requirements” within the mandate by providing that they can be brought into effect only by regulations subject to the negative resolution procedure.

However, making the mandate as a whole subject to the affirmative procedure would go too far. Parliament will set the parameters that the NHS will operate within, through this Bill and the legislation that will support it. This is a Bill that takes many powers away from Ministers and gives them back to Parliament, but it should be for the elected Government of the day, not for Parliament, to set specific policy objectives within that legislative framework following full consultation.

Of course, parliamentarians will have an interest in the mandate, and will have the opportunity to debate and influence it in the usual ways. As Clause 1 of the Bill makes clear, following our debate last week, the Secretary of State retains his responsibility to Parliament for the health service; and Parliament has the right to hold him to account for the health service, including the setting of the mandate.

Amendment 43, tabled by my noble friend Lady Williams and three of my other Liberal Democrat noble friends would require the Secretary of State to explain how the mandate supported his cross-cutting duties. I think that part of the motivation for the amendment is a concern to ensure that the mandate is not simply about financial issues. I hope that I can reassure my noble friend Lady Williams in particular on this point. It is our firm belief that the mandate should focus on the strategic outcomes and policies that the Government wish the NHS Commissioning Board to achieve. At the heart of this should be objectives for improvement against the NHS outcomes framework. The mandate will also be an opportunity for the Government to set specific objectives about the policies that we have set out in the NHS White Paper and the government response to the NHS Future Forum; for example, about extending patient choice and enabling clinical commissioning groups to flourish.

While the mandate will set the budget for the board and could include objectives relating to efficiency or financial management, it definitely will not be primarily about financial controls. Of course financial controls are essential, but the Bill has separate provisions for these under Clause 23. The mandate will not be a narrow and technical financial document which requires a separate justification of how the Secretary of State has fulfilled his legal duties; rather, it will visibly embody his duties. So I do not believe that an extra reporting requirement in the Bill is necessary.

Amendment 49 would require the board in consultation with the Secretary of State to set standards for the management of commissioners’ and providers’ accounts to enable efficiency comparisons. This comparison would be published annually by the Secretary of State. I understand the concerns which have led to the tabling of the amendment, but it would be an unnecessary and perhaps bureaucratic imposition on NHS providers and commissioners, distracting them from improving outcomes for their patients and the wider QIPP challenge.

It is important to be able to make comparisons of efficiency, but the board and, in turn, CCGs should be given the autonomy to decide whether and how to do this. I happen to know that work is currently proceeding in this area.

Monitor’s role currently includes the oversight of the financial management of foundation trusts, and the Trust Development Authority will do the same for non-FTs, so this information is already available for providers.

My noble friend Lady Jolly referred to HealthWatch England. It is specified in subsection (8) of new Section 13A as someone the Secretary of State must consult in developing the mandate. HealthWatch England will be able to feed in the views of local healthwatch as well.

Amendments 48 and 293, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, would require parallel mandates to be set for Monitor and the Care Quality Commission. Again, I hope that I can persuade him that that is not necessary.

Monitor and CQC are independent regulators, with clearly defined statutory functions. Their core role is unchanging and regulatory, rather than about achieving a series of evolving policy objectives. Therefore, there is far less reason for the Government to set them a specific mandate. The fact that there is a statutory mandate in the Bill for the Commissioning Board reflects the different nature of the board’s role.

As with any arm’s-length body, there is a framework agreement between it and the sponsor department, which is used as the basis for monitoring the body’s ongoing performance. That is the approach that the department uses and will be using for all of its arm’s-length bodies, including CQC and Monitor. That will be underpinned by formal reviews of each organisation’s capability, at least every three years.

The department will retain overall stewardship, system leadership and accountability for ensuring that the different national bodies are working as Parliament intended. As I have mentioned on previous occasions, the Secretary of State will have formal powers to intervene in the event of significant failure. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

Before the Minister sits down, will he clarify whether the same processes that he has just outlined would apply to people in receipt of specialist services that are commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board, not by local CCGs?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, where a service is commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board—and let us imagine that it is a specialised service—the patient’s recourse should be to the board. However, of course, the board will be represented at a local level rather than only centrally, and we expect that the board will be represented in health and well-being boards and in the discussions that take place there. It would therefore be possible for a patient to address their concerns, in the first instance, to the health and well-being board, which would have the ability and power to communicate directly with the NHS Commissioning Board, if that was felt to be appropriate. However, as I said, the patient would be able to go straight to the board in those circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I support the government amendments in this group, which are also in the name of my noble friend Lord Marks. They represent the last in a suite of 10 amendments which came out of the process so eloquently described by many noble Lords in earlier debates today, and which take us from the Secretary of State right through the board to CCGs, accountability and micromanagement, tentacles and all.

Like everyone else I should like to state my thanks, and on my Benches there are two people to whom I owe particular thanks. My noble friends Lady Williams and Lord Marks worked very hard from last March to make this happen. In association with many others, including my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern and the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, who is no longer in his place, they worked extremely hard at getting these amendments together. I hope that the noble Lord feels comfortable and confident about the expression he used in Committee about the DNA of NHS Bills, and that he feels that that DNA is now weaving through this suite of amendments—from the 1940s to the 21st century. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, and the Constitution Committee played such a vital role, and my noble friend the Minister smoothed the way. As I say, however, I thank in particular my noble friends Lady Williams and Lord Marks.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I think it is the turn of my noble friend.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, health reforms rarely come at low cost. Can the Minister tell the House how much the previous Government’s health reforms cost between 1997 and 2010?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is right to remind the House of the repeated reforms of the health service made under the previous Administration. I do not have a figure for how much they cumulatively cost the taxpayer, but it was clearly a great deal and I recall that one of the reforms took place over the course of the summer without any reporting to Parliament at all. The contrast between those reforms and this one is marked. We are doing this to get better care for patients. The previous Government were really only doing it to rearrange the deckchairs.

NHS: Transition Risk Register

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, to answer the second part of the question first, a substantial number of the risks pertaining to the Bill are already in the public domain and we are considering whether there is scope to draw these sources of information together in a single place, so that noble Lords can look at them more easily. To answer the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, I made inquiries about NHS London. Its situation is very interesting and quite different from that of the Department of Health. NHS London developed its risk management strategy with a view to it being visible to stakeholders and the public, as its document says. It is therefore a reasonable assumption that officials will have worded their risks for inclusion in the register in the knowledge that that wording would be likely to form part of a document placed in the public domain, so there is a very real difference between the two situations.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, as has been suggested, there are wider issues here. Could my noble friend the Minister tell the House to what extent he believes the use of risk registers might be compromised if their authors feel they cannot be entirely candid?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, risk needs to be thought about and assessed thoroughly and often in worst case terms in order to inform policy development and implementation. Risk registers are therefore a basic policy management tool and, for robust risk management to take place, officials have to be free to record all potential risks fully and frankly, with absolute candour, in confidence that anything they say will not be disclosed. If officials knew or believed that what they wished to say was going to be disclosed, that would inhibit them in expressing views fully and frankly. That, in turn, would erode confidence in policy-making and impede good government.

Health: Pathfinders

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jolly]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support and guidance is being offered to pathfinder clinical commissioning groups in commissioning integrated health and social care services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, pathfinders are receiving national and local development support. With their SHA and PCT cluster, pathfinders are exploring approaches to clinical commissioning, including integration of health and social care. Key to this will be engagement with local authorities and secondary care. Our national learning network allows pathfinders to share learning and best practice. Pathfinders will be authorised to take on their full commissioning functions only when the NHS Commissioning Board is certain that they are ready.

[Baroness Jolly]

I thank the Minister for his reply. He outlined the fact that local authorities will play a key role in this new world. We hope that they will commission for patients and not for the condition. For the health and well-being boards to operate effectively, they, too, need support. What support are the Government able to offer, and what support are they offering pathfinder health and well-being boards within local government at present?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is right. We were very pleased to see the NHS Future Forum says that running right through the Health and Social Care Bill is the desire and aim to integrate services. That is certainly right. We recognise that there is a balance to be struck between allowing local ideas to spring up and people to progress their own ideas and having the necessary support from the centre to do that. We have established a national learning network for pathfinders to complement the support given to them by strategic health authorities and PCTs. Those learning networks will ensure that best practice is spread and, specifically, that pathfinders support other local groups which are less developed.

Health: Influenza Vaccination

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

I agree that there is some way to go. It is encouraging that we have made significant progress this year. Of course, the season is not yet at an end, and we hope that more healthcare workers will still be vaccinated. Uptake rates in healthcare workers have historically been low, as the noble Lord will be aware. A number of reasons have been suggested for that, but there is no doubt about the importance of this issue. Part of the reason is the need to ensure that healthcare workers do not transmit flu to those they are looking after. Also, it is in the interest of employers to ensure that absenteeism for sickness reasons is kept to a minimum.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify whether the same measures will be taken whenever public or NHS money is spent, which is not only in the public sector but in the private voluntary and mutual sectors?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, in general it is incumbent on employers, whether in the public or the independent sector, to ensure that their staff are protected appropriately. If my noble friend’s question alludes to the fact that independent providers may be offering services to the NHS, then I agree that there is a duty there, and we will see, as we already see, that that provision is taken account of in the contracts that commissioners take out with independent providers.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Greengross]

My Lords, my Amendment 332A follows well from the previous two speakers. It would ensure that integrated working in health and social care delivery—particularly the latter, which we know from many noble Lords who have spoken, including the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is often very much the junior partner in these discussions—is given an explicit place on the face of the Bill, rather than simply being relegated to regulations and guidelines. In his report on Fairer Care Funding, Andrew Dilnot commented that when someone has a care or support need, they do not really know which part of the range of state funding is going to provide the services that they need. This particularly applies to people with multiple needs and co-morbidities, which is often the majority. We know that there are many different services delivered at national and local level—for example, the NHS, the adult social care system, social security benefits, public health services and housing services. They can all be critical in meeting people’s needs. The problem is that all these elements overlap and interact, sometimes positively but sometimes rather negatively. Dilnot noted forcefully that when services that are shaped around people work well together, outcomes are better; when they do not, people experience very disjointed services and their experiences are poor.

We need a care system that is more consistent, with less variability, and one in which people feel that services are working for them, not against them. In this context, I welcome the Department of Health’s commitment to breaking down the barriers between health and social care to improve the outcomes and experience of users. Having a National Health Service that is free at the point of need, but a shared-responsibility system of social care, means that difficult decisions will continue to be made if this carries on. For example, in response to the Nicholson challenge, how will clinical commissioning groups ensure that the focus stays on the patient and on integration of services and not on contracting and other arrangements? Do we know what type of support managers need to make integrated services a reality? How can staff be encouraged to work collaboratively? Through this process, how can the correct values and ethos concerning the dignity and respect of patients, which we all believe in, be developed and maintained within and across organisations? There are many examples of where the consequences of having different care streams can seem extremely unfair to people. But when streams have been integrated or a more co-ordinated approach is taken, there is evidence of improved outcomes, high-quality services and better value for money, as well as the fostering of innovation. In my view, the powers proposed in Clause 192 for the health and well-being boards to support integrated working should be extended to encourage explicit joint commissioning.

In support for innovation in Part 5, greater regard should be given to the role that service and technology solutions, for example, can have in breaking down traditional boundaries and in encouraging better integration of health and social care services. All generations, including older people, are having their lives transformed by the dramatic changes that we daily witness in communications technology, yet in the UK the adoption of telehealth into health and social care, particularly in prevention and intervention, has sometimes been much slower than in many countries in the industrialised world. In other parts of the world, we have clear evidence of the key role that these systems play in the prevention of ill health, in self-management, in the provision of improved outcomes and in dependence for service users and efficiency savings for the taxpayer. As part of the overall redesign of care, this represents a vital element in the shift towards more preventive care, reducing the imbalance between hospital and primary care spend and making better use of scarce clinical resources. Better integration should facilitate such innovations and would go a long way to making health and social care more self-directed and giving a boost to the personalisation agenda. Integration deserves to be more than a footnote in this Bill. It could be the cornerstone of better quality, value for money and patient-centred care.

[Baroness Jolly]

I have put my name to Amendments 328B and 330ZAA. I send the apologies of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who is not well. She had hoped to be able to speak to these instead of me. First, I should like to make a few general points about health and well-being boards. It should go without saying that the Liberal Democrats really welcome local democracy in health and the far greater involvement of local authorities than is the case at the moment, as well as the use of scrutiny committees. We are somewhat saddened that in the legislation there is only one elected decision-maker on a health and well-being board. I understand the Government’s unwillingness to prescribe, but they have not quite got the balance right. There may be as many elected councillors as other voting stakeholders, with maybe a casting vote given to the chair. That feels much more like localism in action than what we currently have.

Linked with that is the role of district councils, which is not mentioned terribly clearly. Here I have another apology, because I know that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, had hoped to speak on this point. What we are losing in his eloquence we are probably making up for in brevity, but I still feel as strongly as I am sure he will. I can almost feel him behind me now, as I speak, but he is not well and is not able to be with us.

Where are district councils in this framework? I know that a lot of local authorities have now become unitary, but there are really key parts of England where strong county councils are well underpinned by district councils. They need to be there, because they provide planning, housing, leisure and environmental health—all these things that have to be well woven into the fabric of this Bill and the delivery of services. They are also part of the solution for the big public health issues. Three examples come to mind without even having to think very hard. Wearing their leisure hat, obesity is a very big issue. Some people prescribe exercise for obesity. On housing, in my neck of the woods, with the warm, wet westerlies, housing gets damp very easily. That brings with it chronic heart and lung problems, particularly if you cannot afford to heat. District councils also play a key role in housing on mental health issues. They are often providers for county councils and PCTs and I know that they would hope for a similar relationship with clinical commissioning groups, when things become established. They should be at the table of the health and well-being boards. I appreciate that you cannot have every district council having one representative. In Kent, where there are 16, or in Devon, where there are eight, you cannot bring those in, but there needs to be some arrangement for working together to ensure that district councils should be there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I remind the Committee of my role as chair of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence, which has an oversight role with the General Pharmaceutical Council. We believe that single dispensing errors should be treated in a proportionate way that still prosecutes those who have been negligent or have committed a deliberate act but does not penalise pharmacists who want to declare a dispensing error in the interests of patient safety—and I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that this is about patient safety.

In the interests of patient safety and public protection, we of course expect the regulator to be able to co-operate with other agencies if it is aware of a pattern of repeated single-dispensing errors that might reflect wilful and deliberate acts with the intention of harming patients. In those circumstances, there would of course still be recourse to criminal prosecution. With these exceptions, I very much support this amendment.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I have some personal experience that I can bring to bear, and it was not until I was reading through the amendments a week or so in advance that I put these things together. Some years ago my mother became really ill with a very strange set of symptoms and no one could work out what the problem was. Eventually her GP came round. Like many people of that age, she takes several drugs. He sat down on her bed, took out her box of drugs from her bedside table drawer and went through them. There was one drug that she should not have been taking at all. It was completely wrong and should have been taken sparingly, not three times a day. My mother lives in a small town and the GP knows the pharmacist well, so he high-tailed down to him straightaway to find out what exactly the issue was. In this case, the dispensing pharmacist was unaware that there was a mistake.

It was really quite interesting to see how it had all happened. The medicines were all stored on a shelf in alphabetical order by drug name, not brand name. The drug in question was adjacent to my mother’s normal drug, and both were generics produced by the same pharmaceutical company. The narrow little rectangular boxes looked the same, so the pharmacist had picked the wrong one off the shelf, popped it into the bag with the rest and it had gone home. My mother, whose sight is not what it was, had taken them all out of their boxes and popped them all into her pill box. The deal was done, it was really very easy, and the whole thing was completely indistinguishable.

Fortunately my mother recovered once it was sorted out. It was a regular, well-known, high-street pharmacy, and it was absolutely excellent. It wrote a letter immediately saying that it was going to instigate a clinical governance review. It then wrote again to tell us exactly what it had done, including changing its methods of storage and ensuring that someone double-checked all drugs before they were bagged-up. This had been a mistake, but there is absolutely no doubt that it was completely negligent, and also avoidable. However, it was not criminal. There was no malicious intent. It could have been terrible, but mercifully it was not. The employer spoke to the pharmacist who admitted exactly what she had done once they had worked it all out. The pharmacy took proportionate discipline, and that is what we as a family wanted. We wanted something to happen, for it be arranged that the mistake could not happen to anyone again and for anything that happened to be professional and proportionate. That is what happened. As a result, I totally support the amendment that my noble friend has tabled with the support of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I shall add a few words because a pharmacist contacted me. Pharmacists are being encouraged to take on more and more, and the drugs are extremely difficult. Some drugs are the same but have different names. It is extremely difficult for patients too, and as they often go to pharmacies for advice it is really very important there this is openness and honesty when a mistake is made. However, I would not like this amendment to open a door for more mistakes to be made.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

I rise to speak to Amendment 311ZA, in the name of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, which calls for people’s views on those services commissioned by the board, whether locally or nationally, to be taken into consideration. I need to make a declaration, because I am chairman of the Specialised Healthcare Alliance. When she sums up, will my noble friend the Minister try to give some assurance that those with rare and complex conditions, services for whom will be commissioned by the board, will be included in all consultations by local healthwatch organisations and by HealthWatch England?

I have some general remarks about HealthWatch, which is to be the voice of the patient both nationally and locally. I want to tease out what it is all about, where it should be and who should be doing it. HealthWatch has to do far more than its name suggests—it has to do more than just watch. Clearly, it needs to listen. I totally support the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Rooker and Lord Harris of Haringey, who are pushing the idea that HealthWatch should be able to recommend. This is not just a tacit thing: it has to be very much more proactive, to push things back. Whether it is pushing it back to the Secretary of State, CQC, local authority boards, NICE or even clinical commissioning groups, it is critical that that should be seen as part of HealthWatch’s role. “No decision about me without me”—well, we will not know about that unless the recommendation amendment is actually woven in.

The amendment of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege is about local healthwatch organisations. Local healthwatch organisations will have an opinion on clinical commissioning groups’ commissioning plans, and that opinion should go to the board.

Where should healthwatch organisations be placed? We have said it before in this Committee and I suspect we shall have to say it again on Report: we on these Benches are not convinced that the role for HealthWatch England is with the CQC—as a sub-committee of the CQC—or that the role locally should be with local authorities. One of the things that these organisations will have to do, whether nationally or locally, is to be quite critical of their hosts. It is very difficult to be critical of your host, so it is perhaps not appropriate that they should be their host.

Along with the question of where healthwatch organisations should sit, another issue—certainly, this is an issue at local level—is funding. Funding is currently held by local authorities for LINk organisations. I suspect that many of us who have been involved in this Committee have been receiving letters from LINk organisations saying that their funding is being cut and they cannot possibly manage. That needs to be taken into consideration. I understand that, currently, the pot of funding for local healthwatch is going to be given to a local authority. Should we be unsuccessful in moving local healthwatch out of the local authority, I would like the Government to give some thought as to how that money might be ring-fenced. I know that they are not happy about ring-fencing money, but should money be ring-fenced and be part of, for the sake of argument, the public health budget? If local healthwatch organisations have to remain with local government, then the funding needs some sort of protection.

Who should be involved with HealthWatch? I support the amendment of, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that there should be locally elected delegates. HealthWatch England would be far stronger if there were local voices from local healthwatches. Now that we will have not strategic health authorities but sub-national areas, perhaps there should be two members from each sub-national area to represent their patch who could give the views of local healthwatch organisations to HealthWatch England. Perhaps that might be appropriate.

The local healthwatch organisations—LINks and their immediate predecessor organisations—have had problems with who actually forms part of these organisations locally. Some have been very good, but some have been less than effective. The members of these groups have just happened to be whoever was interested and keen at the time. Sometimes the groups were positive, but sometimes they really did not work at all. There might be shades of the past here: I wondered if there was any mileage in suggesting that the local healthwatch should be composed of someone from the local authority, someone from the voluntary sector and, of course, someone representing the patients, so that you weave into the local group some professional expertise in order to help with some of the strategic work.

I pass on apologies from my noble friend Lady Tyler, who was going to speak about children—she had her name down to Amendment 311ZA. Children need to be heard. When you talk about the views of children, you might have a mental picture of very little children, but in this context children go up to the age of 18. A lot of interesting services are currently available for teenage children, teenage individuals, young people or young citizens. It is critical that their views, needs and experiences are sought so that they can be fed into the mix.

I have probably said enough now about HealthWatch for the three groups so I shall sit down and not stand up again, but it is critical that we do this right in the Bill. I look forward to seeing what comes out on Report and to seeing where we need to move on to from there.

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

My Lords, my contribution in support of the amendments is simple and brief: it is to ask that the Minister ensures that we learn the lessons of history and do not repeat the mistakes of the past when it comes to patient involvement. As we know, there is a huge evidence base about the benefits of patient involvement in health outcomes, and I am sure that the mantra of “No decision about me without me” is something that all noble Lords will accept.

While successive Governments have been committed to patient and public involvement, the history of it has not been a happy one. Some of us can go right back to 1974 when CHCs were first set up. Like my noble friend Lord Harris, I believe that this Government are committed to putting patients at the heart of the NHS, but let us look at why the previous attempts to do so have not been successful. In summary, I suggest that the reasons are these: the efforts have not been sufficiently well funded; they have not been seen as sufficiently independent and therefore have had conflicts of interest; they have not had enough status; and there has not been seen to be enough communication between national and local bits of the set-up.

I leave aside the current problems of the CQC, although I agree with noble Lords who have spoken about that, but the very idea of making the new body a sub-committee of anything seems to me to ensure that we are in fact going straight down the route where we have made so many mistakes before. I remind the Committee that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Nursing

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, for inspiring this debate. Hers is one of the most respected voices in your Lordships’ House, and when she speaks on this subject we all listen and learn. I am also delighted to see here in the Public Gallery nurses who have come to listen to the debate.

What is the front line? All but a few of the 600,000-odd nurses are working right there, delivering world-class care to their patients. Some will be in key management positions in our trusts and a few are top civil servants advising the department and strategic health authorities. They are members of clinical networks, and I hope that in the new world they will be advising the NHS boards and should be on clinical senates.

If you were to talk to a focus group of the general public and ask them to close their eyes and think of a nurse, what would they say? In all probability they would think of a woman. Depending on their age, they might put that nurse in a frilly starched cap, and almost certainly in a hospital at the sharp end of acute medicine—including theatre, A&E, intensive care and neonatal nursing—although those with recent experience of the NHS might have a more modern, nuanced view. Of course, that picture is not accurate. Many nurses are men, and in the days of infection control frilly caps have gone. This focus group might be surprised that it is a graduate profession and that there are many specialist nurses with the equivalent of masters’ degrees in their specialism. This situation is completely unrecognisable from that of 20 years ago. Let us be completely clear—here I totally agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick—that, despite much red-top protestations to the contrary, all but a very few nurses do their jobs with utmost professionalism, as they fit into a multidisciplinary team based around patient care.

I shall focus my remarks today on the nurses whose front line is the local community and who work in community settings, in the home and in community hospitals. They are largely unsung but play a vital role in patient care. They give the patients what they want—personal care at home or close to home. Their role is vital in keeping patients out of the acute setting wherever possible and in taking tasks from doctors, who are thus freed up for diagnostic work. We should be in no doubt that this is not only good news for the patient but, incidentally, delivers considerable savings to the NHS.

What roles might nurses take in community care? They are involved with cancer, continence, COPD, diabetes, district and community nursing, end-of-life care, learning disability, mental health, midwifery, minor injury nursing, multiple sclerosis, older people, practice nursing, prescribing, renal, school nursing, smoking cessation, stroke and substance misuse. My list is not exhaustive, and I apologise unreservedly for any areas that I have omitted. These nurses are quietly innovative. The way that they work improves the care of their patients. They are collaborative and forge links with GPs, acute care, charitable sector providers and local authorities. They were designing informal packages of care and pathways before those terms were in common parlance. They act, while others plan and strategise.

In the history of community specialist nurses, midwives get the earliest mention in literature, in Exodus, delivering babies as the tribes of Israel fled from Egypt—if anyone can go back more than 6,000 years, I am happy to hear of it. This is a far cry from the world that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege spoke about on Monday in Committee on the Health and Social Care Bill. I should like to highlight two areas of outstanding care. Your Lordships will know that I worked for Macmillan Cancer Support, and I should like to explain its work in the community, and the role of minor injury nurses.

Last Sunday, I attended a service in Exeter cathedral to celebrate 100 years of Macmillan Cancer Support, which was established by Douglas Macmillan in response to his father’s death from cancer. There are now thousands of Macmillan-trained nurses in the community, offering services such as chemotherapy at home, wherever possible, and helping the whole family deal with end of life, where necessary. At present, only a quarter of patients are able to die in their own beds, and 24/7 community nursing is critical to helping cancer patients die at home. These front-line nurses prevent crisis situations from occurring, so that patients are not transferred into hospital and hence reduce costs to the NHS in the longer term. However, half of PCTs are not providing this vital service. The palliative care funding review recognised that a relatively small investment in 24/7 community services would enable commissioners to deliver improved outcomes for patients and ensure that palliative and end-of-life care services are delivered in the most cost-effective way. The new draft end-of-life care quality standard also supports the need for 24/7 community nursing, and Macmillan would like to see the standard implemented effectively and as quickly as possible. Macmillan is also supporting those living beyond cancer. Macmillan nurses help families link into specialist benefits advisers—either Macmillan's own or those trained by Macmillan and now working in CABs across the country—who work through and around the system for the patient and their carers. That is true personalisation.

On minor injury nurses, every week millions of people go to A&E or their own doctor for conditions that are minor—neither an accident nor an emergency. They go because A&E is easily accessible, but they waste the time of trauma teams. Two highly skilled specialist nurses in a community hospital or within an A&E department can run a minor injuries unit. They have access to advice from the A&E department as and when required. These units are able to treat a range of conditions: cuts, bruises, burns, simple fractures —even broken bones, as long as the skin has not been broken and the bone does not stick through—as well as sprains, strains and head injuries. Saturday afternoons see them full of sportsmen and women. In one year in Cornwall, 900,000 patients attended a Cornish minor injury unit. This prevented nearly 1 million attendances at A&E. By anyone's reckoning, that is an impressive record. If we visit their websites, praise for their service is fulsome. Holiday-makers visiting Cornwall, in Newquay, St Ives or Bude, leave messages on the websites to say how impressed they are by the services and asking why they are not offered locally.

I would like to move on to two general points about specialist nursing. Changes to the workforce need to be patient-centred and must not be undertaken simply as a cost-cutting exercise. There is anecdotal evidence that, in some cases, services are downgrading roles simply to save money without analysing the needs of patients. Changes to the workforce need to be thought out and patient-centred, mapping needs against skills. Macmillan is looking at how cancer patients can be given one-to-one support by a team of different professionals so that they receive support from the right person at the right time. In particular, Macmillan is looking at how support workers can be used to release capacity for specialists so that they can concentrate on tasks that make best use of and develop their skills, thereby improving the productivity and efficiency of teams.

I would like to echo remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick. I suspect that the speakers who follow might agree, although I dare not anticipate your Lordships’ speeches. Education and training must be protected if we are to ensure a high-quality future nursing workforce. I am extremely concerned that under the current financial constraints, education and training budgets are being cut. In addition, there is not the capacity or funding to free up professionals to attend such training. Neglecting the continued education of professionals hampers their ability to advance their knowledge to meet the new and emerging needs of patients and threatens the future supply of specialist nurses. I would welcome assurance from the Minister on this subject.

This has been a very interesting and important debate. Its timing within the Committee stage of the Health and Social Care Bill is really useful. We must do all we can to advance the nursing profession and in particular those specialist nurses who add so much to patient care.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for missing the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell’s opening remarks. I simply point out that we have an Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, Ruth Marks. In March 2010 she led an inquiry into care in hospitals, called Dignified Care? By November this year, she was satisfied that the 12 recommendations from its in-depth and hard-hitting report had been met. She is now using her powers to drive forward additional adult protection legislation and a nursing home review. It is only with legal powers and leadership that we can really turn care round. I believe that such a post is more than cost-effective. I really recommend that the Government look hard at having an older people’s commissioner for England because we know that there is a big problem there. Such a post will more than save its cost.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, in her plea for a commissioner for older people. As she indicated, it has been a long-standing commitment of our party, which was put into party policy last September. Prior to the general election, we had a spokesman in the other place on older people’s issues, and there was a general election manifesto commitment. So we were right there and, as the noble Baroness has indicated, she has form in this regard too.

The Welsh commissioner for older people actually started life in your Lordships’ House before going to the other place, and the appointment was made in 2008. I have talked to Welsh colleagues over the last week and they have been really enthusiastic about the work that has been done and the progress made in Wales. So if it can happen in Wales, maybe we need to think about England too. The Welsh ambassador has similar responsibilities to those in the noble Baroness’s amendment. The role also has powers of investigation, entry and interview. I wish that we could be more ambitious with this older persons’ commissioner and extend the scope. As the noble Baroness said, there are so many issues that worry old people. Health and social care are clearly at the top of the list, but there are also pensions, housing, transport, leisure, even banking. Clearly there is a need for some sort of signposting centre for old people which somebody has to grasp and make it work.

The Government start a consultation on social care in the new year, and I know that my honourable friend Paul Burstow, the Minister for social care, is also keen on this particular issue, so I am really pleased to support this. Could my noble friend the Minister clarify whether an older person’s commissioner, or something similar, would be on the list of possibles, probables or definites for the next Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I have supported the idea of coterminosity from when I first saw the Bill in January. It struck me as being straightforward and sensible that if health and social care were put together, the health boundaries would be aligned with the social care boundaries. That clearly happened in the middle of the last decade, when PCTs were grouped together to be coterminous with social care boundaries. There are all sorts of issues. If you have a large clinical commissioning group, then there is a capacity issue in that you have one clinical commissioning group that might need to work with several local authorities’ health and well-being boards, directors of public health, healthwatches or whatever. If you have a small group, then you have many CCGs working with all those bodies. It struck me that if there were a direct fit, everything would look quite neat and hunky-dory. I parked the thought in my mind that everything was fine.

Then I started to look at what was happening around me locally in the south-west. Torbay has been mentioned many times in your Lordships’ House. It provided a care trust—health and social care together. One of the areas they are really anxious about is that if they become part of Devon, an awful lot might get lost. So there are special circumstances around that integration. They know that they are small and they are trying to look at making themselves bigger by working with other parts of Devon, all of which take their acute services from one DGH. The same sort of thing is happening in Plymouth. Noble Lords will remember from the Bill about constituency boundaries in January that there was a huge big deal about Cornwall being all on its own. Cornish patients, believe it or not, actually do cross the Tamar in order to go to hospital in Plymouth. A fifth of Cornish hospital patients actually do that, so a whole group of Cornish GPs who face that way, along with some in south-west Devon who face that way, along with Plymouth, have discussed the possibility of working together as a group, simply because they all face one DGH. It was a common bond, if you like.

Therefore, we have a county or a district or a borough seen as one possible common bond. We have an idea that commissioning groups who commission from a particular hospital, trying to work together in a pathfinder mode, is not peculiar to the south-west; a lot people seem to think it would be a good idea. There are lots of issues, so how do we solve this? I still think that, for an awful lot of situations, co-terminosity is the right answer. The test really has to be: what actually can be deemed to be in the interest of the patient? The whole thing has to be taken in the round; it has to include care providers and health providers and there has to be an element of size capacity. My head—and my heart—say coterminosity, but then I look at certain other areas where there are groups that have—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Would the noble Baroness give way? She has raised an interesting point. Could I describe the situation in Birmingham? My understanding is that although there will be more than one clinical commissioning group, there will clearly be one HWB group and the membership has now reached 25. There is one place for providers on it. One gets the feeling that there is a risk that it will become a talking shop. Secondly—and I declare my interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust in Birmingham—if you exclude the providers from those key discussions, you will not get a buy-in. Think of patient discharge and the relationship between reducing length of stay, preventing admissions and the support that social services needs to give packages of care. One worries that you reach a situation where the whole thing is so unwieldy that it will not really work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, could I ask the Minister a question that is definitely not medical and about which he might wish to take note for further advice later? In a cluster, does each component maintain its own solvency or do they have a collective solvency? If there is an imbalance in the size of those components and a marginally solvent large component, you run the risk of creating insolvency for the two smaller ones. That would be a severe risk for the trustees of those components.

[Baroness Jolly]

I have lost my thread. We are talking about Birmingham, which is humongous, and presumably any large city would have exactly the same sort of issues. Is the noble Lord arguing for coterminous clinical commissioning groups?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My point is that my amendment was a probing amendment to get some information from the Government about their intent regarding boundaries. Clearly, one of the problems that we are discussing is size and the larger you make clinical commissioning groups, the less influence GPs will have on their deliberations. The whole point about clinical commissioning groups was to put GPs in the driving seat. I do not know if Ministers know how much pressure within the system is being put upon potential clinical commissioning groups, but they are being told that they have to get large. The numbers who put themselves forward at the beginning were basically told that there was no way that they would get approval, so they have been forced into big marriages.

I simply point out that even if you take Birmingham, where there will be very big clinical commissioning groups, you will still end up with an unwieldy health and well-being board. One has to think through the implications of this if you are then trying to get a cohesive strategy on public health and on joint commissioning that pulls all of the players together—while still excluding the providers from those discussions. We started from an original prospectus that was going to give GPs real control over commissioning. That is gone. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. I do not think that there is now any chance in the system that is being forced upon the service, that individual GPs will have any influence. As with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, it is clear that GPs are realising this now, and that the prospectus is a false one.

[Baroness Jolly]

I think that the noble Lord’s point is well made. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, however, talked about the element of size and back office, which needs to be quite large. Small CCGs will need to share a back office, simply because that is the way it is. There will need to be shared commissioning arrangements. I think that the noble Earl, Lord Warner, was saying much the same thing: these things will not work if they are tiny but might if they are larger. I remember primary care groups, which became primary care trusts, which became bigger primary care trusts. What is a reasonable size to make all those linkages work? What we do not want is for all of these organisations to spend their days going to meetings. If we are not careful and clinical commissioning groups go over local authority boundaries then they will have to serve more than one health and well-being board.

The ideal would be to have some co-terminosity but clearly it will not work in really enormous situations. My background and experience is in rural areas, where it strikes me as the most obvious way forward. Even if that is not how it starts, that is how it probably should end up. As for the Torbay example, the PCTs are very small. However, they are also perfectly formed and have done a really good job. They are desperate to keep what they did, and did well, but they are being pressured to join a Devon PCT—which also has pressure on Plymouth, which is also part of the Devon PCT. So it is not a straightforward picture. When clinical commissioning groups put their case to the board, there needs to be some sort of nuancing in application.

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, is not the whole point of the formation of clinical commissioning groups that it should be a local solution that fits the configuration of a particular urban or rural area and that it should be decided locally with the Commissioning Board what the best fit is? I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that size is an important issue as to whether one is favouring individual GP commissioning of a personal family health service or whether one is going for the much bigger purchasing of population services. Surely the big difference with this Bill is that PCTs had no real central support for developing commissioning in the way that clinical commissioning groups will have very explicit support from the Commissioning Board. I can see that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is shaking his head, but I think that makes a huge difference because we have seen the concentration of emphasis by the Department of Health on the acute sector, and to get a way towards having much greater leadership from the centre in developing commissioning seems to me a very positive thing.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, asks why is it only GPs—why do all professionals not get involved? All local primary care clinical professionals should have an input to the groups’ deliberations, but surely the obvious answer is that it is GPs who specifically use resources for their patients from secondary care. They actually determine the costs in secondary care through their use of secondary care hospitals; they intervene to stop secondary care—they have the possibility of doing it through provision of primary care; and they have enormous control over the funding, potentially, of the hospital system. It seems absolutely obvious that it should be GPs. The input of local dental practitioners, opticians and pharmacists is vital but they do not play the same financial role and that is why it seems to me it has to be GPs.

We cannot in this Chamber fix this Bill to lay down rules for the development of clinical commissioning groups. It would be absurd. The Commissioning Board and local people who are going to contribute to it have to make that decision. They have to be the ones to make it work. If they need to come together to commission services for rare conditions, that is fine.