NHS: Healthcare UK

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

I am sure the noble Lord will know that a number of our flagship hospitals already have private facilities which treat domestic and international private patients, including Great Ormond Street and the Royal Marsden. All such treatment of course takes place outside NHS provision. However, it is important to emphasise that Healthcare UK is about much more than private patients. In fact, that will not be its primary focus. It is about sharing this country’s expertise, technology and knowledge to support healthcare systems and infrastructure with international partners. Healthcare UK will provide support if there are NHS organisations wanting to bring patients in from overseas but that will not be its principal focus.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, the NHS brand is the envy of the world and we welcome this enterprise. Will my noble friend tell me how many clinicians he expects might be involved and in what particular roles and disciplines?

[Earl Howe]

It is a little too early to say because the business plan for Healthcare UK has yet to be drawn up. We have appointed a managing director in the shape of Howard Lyons who I think will do an excellent job. It remains to be seen what requirements are needed. We are looking at certain target markets at the moment—in particular, the Middle East, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Libya, China and India. But it depends on the requests that we get from those countries as to what skills set might be needed.

NHS: Private Companies

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Government’s policy is that competition should never be deployed for competition’s sake but only in the interests of patients. Furthermore, competition should be on the basis of quality and not price. The answer to the noble Lord’s question is that we need to arrive progressively at a system of tariffs that fairly reflect the value and cost of the work that providers do, and that all providers should compete equally on that basis.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, Parts 3 and 4 of the Health and Social Care Act were rigorously debated. Will my noble friend confirm that the regulations covering this will be laid down soon, as 1 April is less than two months away?

[Earl Howe]

I can tell my noble friend that the Government intend to lay these regulations shortly.

Social Care Funding

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. I am with him in spirit. I say that because not only do I believe in cross-party consensus on a matter as important as this, but I hope he will accept from me that the way we have tried to structure this package, taking the cap and the means test in combination, has precisely been to target those of more modest means. Currently only those with assets of less than £23,250 and a low income receive help from the state with their care costs. Our changes will mean that those with property value and savings of £100,000 or less in 2010 prices will start to receive financial support. That means that the most support will go to those in greatest need. I am advised that had we, for example, opted for a higher means-test threshold, it would not in practice have brought into the net that many more people. We felt that the fairest way of cutting the cake was to try to concentrate the benefit on those of lowest means while also removing the fear of catastrophic care costs from everybody in the system.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, we on these Benches are delighted that the Government decided to implement the principles of the Dilnot report. The care and support Bill places a duty on local authorities to provide information and advice. In addition, there will be a need to set up some sort of taxi-metering system in order to achieve that outcome. Has the Minister any idea about how that might be achieved?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is absolutely right. One of the tasks that faces us over the next two or three years is to ensure that every member of the public has easy access to information which enables them to make plans and take decisions about their own or their family’s future. We will therefore be working very closely with local authorities on that front. It is important that there are websites. My department is already devoting a section of its website to appropriate information on this front. More generally, we need to ensure that the system is not only fair to people, but clear to people.

NHS Bodies and Local Authorities (Partnership Arrangements, Care Trusts, Public Health and Local Healthwatch) Regulations 2012

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I support the points made by my two noble friends in their eloquent speeches. I speak as someone who was given assurances about campaigning on Report by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. My filing system is not up to discovering whether she sent me a letter, but I have no recollection that she withdrew her assurances in any way. The set of regulations in Regulation 36(1) and (2) of Part 6, taken together, totally neuter the ability of local Healthwatch organisations to campaign effectively.

As my noble friend said, the extraordinary thing is that the Government have chosen, with absolutely brilliant timing, to bring this before the House on the day before publication of the Francis report. My noble friend was wise. He did not know when the Francis report was coming out, but the Government had an opportunity to offer the chance to defer these regulations. It is very odd that we are having this debate when no doubt tomorrow there will be an unleashing—a positive avalanche—of rhetoric about the need to put the patient at the centre of the NHS. There was a warm-up on “Newsnight” yesterday. We can see it coming. Now we have a set of regulations that will set up local Healthwatch alongside Healthwatch England. The organisations will be totally unable to campaign against policies that they regard as not in patients’ interests.

I will spend a few moments on the text of the regulations. The Explanatory Note on page 38 of the regulations states:

“Regulation 36 sets out certain political activities which are not to be treated as carried out for the benefit of the community”.

This is an extraordinary statement, but Regulation 36(1) and (2) go rather wider than that. The Explanatory Note does not accurately reflect what is in the regulations. Consideration needs to be given to the quality of the drafting of either the Explanatory Note or of Regulation 36(1)(a) and (b), interrelated with Regulation 36(2). Regulation 36(1)(a) and (b) prevents a local Healthwatch organisation promoting or opposing changes in the policy adopted by any governmental or public body in relation to any matter, including the promotion of changes to the policy, unless under Regulation 36(2)(a) they can reasonably be regarded as incidental to other activities which are acceptable. So it is left to a multitude of small local social enterprises around the country to make a judgment, day by day, about whether what they are doing offends the provisions in Regulation 36(1)(a) and (b), as modified by Regulation 36(2)(a).

Even if we assume that there is some scope under that wording for them to campaign—which I very much doubt on any reasonable interpretation of the words—they will be in a state of uncertainty, and they will be expected to resolve that uncertainty with the minuscule amounts of money they have to carry out their operations. So if the Government want them to be effective with the small amounts of money there is likely to be, why do they want them to be tied-up by and concerned about obscure regulations which call into question their right to do the sane and sensible thing on behalf of patients in their area?

This House operates on the basis that one can accept assurances from government spokesmen while legislation is going through and we do not pursue matters when we are given them. However, as an individual Member of this House, I take umbrage about the assurances we were given on our ability to campaign. And not only me—the point about campaigning was repeated by my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley and again we were given assurances. We did not press this point further at Third Reading but, had we not been given those assurances, I am sure we would have come back to this issue at that stage. The Government have some explaining to do about why those assurances were not reflected in the wording of these regulations.

I support the point made by my noble friend Lord Collins about the extraordinary definition of a lay person. As other interests said to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, this definition of lay person and lay involvement creates a situation in which it is possible to have people in local Healthwatch organisations who could be said to be in a position to manipulate discussion and debate on behalf of the very people that a local Healthwatch organisation is supposed to be monitoring and looking into.

Finally, I draw attention to the requirement provisions in Regulations 40 to 43. If one looks at these as a normal human being, they again pose a bureaucratic nightmare that will be excessively burdensome for the small organisations which will have to understand what it all means. I do not think it is beyond the wit of the Department of Health, Ministers and civil servants to produce proportionate regulations in relation to small bodies which spend relatively small amounts of public money.

These regulations are totally disproportionate to what they are trying to regulate in the interests of patients. The best thing the Government can do is graciously to withdraw the regulations, think about what is going to happen tomorrow, reflect on this and, after further consultation with stakeholders, come back with regulations which live up to the promises that the Government made and are more appropriate for the organisations being regulated.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, just under a year ago on 8 March 2012 we were asked, during the passage of the Health and Social Care Act, to accept a last-minute change of structure of local Healthwatch because, as the Minister put it at the time, on reflection the Government realised that greater flexibility was needed over the organisational form of local Healthwatch. It was not entirely clear what lay behind this sudden realisation, which happened after the Bill had been through the Commons. The House was given only five working days within which to make sense of 50-plus government amendments that were put down at the time to achieve this change.

This was a very unusual action for the Government to have taken and very little explanation was given. Stakeholders in patient and public engagement were not consulted; we were asked, effectively, to give the Government the benefit of the doubt. We continued to put our faith in the Government’s intention as stated in the White Paper, Equity and Excellence, which aimed to strengthen the collective voice of patients through a new independent consumer champion within the Care Quality Commission, manifested at a local level as local Healthwatch with a strong local infrastructure.

During the debate on Report, the Minister described Healthwatch as, indeed, the voice of the people. At that time, we were dealing with the third reform of the way in which local communities influenced their NHS in three years, and there was a general view that, for their sake, we needed to get on with it. To avoid switching off the power for local communities to have a say in local services for too long, we felt the turbulence of further reform needed to be kept to a minimum. We hoped that secondary legislation would give the system its real shape and we would have an opportunity to ensure that the essentials were in place, changes in structure notwithstanding. This secondary legislation, which is among the most difficult to fathom, really fails to reassure.

My noble friend Lady Cumberlege will deal with freedom of speech and action. I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister about two issues relating to who will make local Healthwatch’s decisions on what it does and how it does it, and what type of involvement lay people or volunteers will have in those decisions.

Local Healthwatch must be a social enterprise contracted by a local authority and may have many subcontracts with other organisations—which may or may not be local or social enterprises—to support or carry out its statutory functions. To try to cut through this structural tangle and preserve the essence of local Healthwatch as the Minister intended it to be—the “collective voice of patients” operating through a “strong local infrastructure”—in March 2012 we focused on who would be involved. We debated the independence of local Healthwatch from the local authority that contracts it, and similarly the independence of Healthwatch England from the CQC, of which it is a committee.

We felt that if local people wholly outside the health and social care system were leading this new structure, they would make it work properly, despite any inherent inadequacies which we were not afforded the time to correct. Therefore, we were pleased when on Report the Minister gave a clear and unambiguous undertaking on behalf of the Secretary of State. She said:

“I have listened to the concerns expressed about the need for local healthwatch to have strong lay involvement. I completely agree. This will be vital to the success of local healthwatch. Therefore, I confirm to the House today that we will use the power of the Secretary of State to specify criteria, which local healthwatch must satisfy, to include strong involvement by volunteers and lay members, including in its governance and leadership. This will have the effect that a local authority cannot award a local healthwatch contract to a social enterprise unless this condition is satisfied. I hope that that provides reassurance to noble Lords”.—[Official Report, 8/3/12; col. 1990.]

Despite the evident good intentions behind this undertaking, something seems to have gone wrong with its execution. There is a serious legal contortion in the regulations around the definition of “lay persons and volunteers”. Suffice to say, it can include staff of health and social care commissioners or providers, as long as they are not clinicians.

This brings me to the role of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House. It considered this SI on 15 January and its 23rd report draws these regulations to the specific attention of the House,

“on the grounds they give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House and that they may imperfectly achieve their policy objective”.

The committee noted that staff could be decision-makers in local Healthwatch. The department did not dispute this in its response to the committee, which therefore concluded that,

“the current wording may leave Local Healthwatch vulnerable to manipulation”.

The committee has been unequivocal in highlighting the errors it perceives in the secondary legislation, saying:

“The Department has offered a legal and policy response, but that may not be enough: the Department needs to address urgently the points raised to the satisfaction of the public because without trust in the basic structure the Department simply may not get the volunteers it wants”.

These regulations do not deliver on the undertaking we were given. There is no assurance of independence, credibility or a strong collective voice for patients. Local Healthwatch could be a mere proxy voice spoken by others—indeed, those others are the very people against whom that voice may wish to speak.

To help reassure both this House and the committee, perhaps the Minister could help me with two scenarios. First, could the manager of a care home sit on its local Healthwatch? If he or she did so, how confident would local people be in the conclusions of that local Healthwatch about the quality of services both at that care home and others? Secondly, could a local profit-making provider of primary care be a local Healthwatch contractor? If so, could its manager sit on the local Healthwatch decision-making group? How confident would local people be in the information they obtained from local Healthwatch in helping them choose a GP?

Moving on, what exactly constitutes “involvement”? The regulations require,

“a procedure for involving lay persons or volunteers”,

although the distinction is unclear. As the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee points out, “involvement” is not defined. The main problem is that in paragraph 38 the regulations deliver,

“the involvement of lay persons and volunteers in the governance”,

but not participation in decision-making, which one would have expected to see in Regulation 40(4).

We know from Sections 23 and 26 of the Health and Social Care Act, which relate to the national Commissioning Board and CCGs, that involvement in the context of patient and public involvement may simply mean giving information. There are no criteria for when more is required.

Social Care: Funding

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, we have to speak speculatively and hypothetically because I cannot give the noble Baroness any indication of the level at which the Government will finally propose to set the cap. The level of the cap needs to represent an affordable and sustainable relationship between the state and the individual. We will give due regard to the Dilnot recommendations for the cap while taking into account current economic circumstances. We will set out further details in the coming weeks but I am sure that the point that the noble Baroness effectively makes will be closely borne in mind as we approach decision time.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, with more people needing social care, and with a higher cap than anticipated under Dilnot being probable, what provisions are being made to assist local authorities to cope with managing deferred payments for care?

NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, that is a very important principle. It is one of the reasons why we felt that the NHS Commissioning Board should be responsible for the allocation of resources to CCGs and not Ministers, to avoid any perception of party-political interference. However, the Government’s mandate to the board makes clear that we would expect the board to place equal access for equal need at the heart of its approach to allocations. That is why ACRA has been charged with developing formulae independently to support the decision that the board takes.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, the first rule of funding is that recipients are never happy with their allocation. Given that, will the Minister assure the House that, with new configurations that we have with public health and CCGs, the model used will regularly be reviewed to ensure that it remains fit for purpose?

[Earl Howe]

Yes, my Lords. As I have indicated, as regards the NHS allocations, the board is clear that the model needs to be reviewed. That does not necessarily mean that it will need to change; the board will have to keep an open mind about that. Clearly, the board was not happy that the formula as currently constructed best met future needs. As regards public health, I think that we are in a better place. As my noble friend will know, the allocations were announced recently and they provide for considerable real-terms increases everywhere around the country.

NHS: Liverpool Care Pathway

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, once again, I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, will wish to look at that very issue. The CQUIN payment framework that the right reverend Prelate mentioned was designed to incentivise good practice, and the LCP is considered internationally to be best practice. In one sense, it is therefore logical that the two should be combined. It is equally important for me to emphasise that the Department of Health has not attached any set financial targets to the LCP; on the other hand, some commissioners in the NHS have introduced local incentives. The way in which those incentives have been applied should be the subject of close attention.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, the Liverpool care pathway is widely used, but some care providers choose to use a slightly different pathway. Will my noble friend confirm that all similar pathways will be included in the inquiry led by the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger?

[Earl Howe]

I will be happy to speak to the noble Baroness about that. I was not aware that she had that in mind. I do not think that there would be an objection on anyone’s part if she did, but it will really depend on the extent to which there is widespread concern about the use of those other pathways.

NHS: South London Healthcare Trust

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, all questions of process must be for my right honourable friend to consider, including that one. I emphasise the Government’s approach to reconfiguration decisions. When the Government came into office, we took a very clear decision about four tests that needed to be applied to any sustainable reconfiguration within the NHS: the changes, whatever they were, had to command support from GP commissioners—that is to say, the clinical community; the public must be engaged in the process; the recommendations must be clinically sustainable and sound; and, as the statement mentioned, they must leave patients with a clear choice of good-quality providers. Those safeguards were not there before, but they are there now and my right honourable friend will be looking at those tests when he considers not just the matter of Lewisham but the totality of the administrator’s recommendations.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, today it is the South London Healthcare Trust, and there is anxiety abroad that tomorrow it could well be another trust. Can the Minister tell the House how many trusts are in the “at risk” box today and what role is being played by Monitor and others in these cases?

World Sepsis Declaration

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness. The need to rapidly identify sepsis when it occurs is vital to ensure that unnecessary death is prevented. A crucial measure to tackle sepsis when it appears is early treatment with broad-spectrum antibiotics. My understanding is that once the bacterium has been identified, the treatment of choice is to have a more focused antibiotic, but rapid reaction is of the essence.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, every year sepsis kills 37,000 people and costs the NHS £2.5 billion. Can my noble friend please tell the House what research programmes are in place across the NHS into care pathways and diagnosis?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the department’s National Institute for Health Research is funding a range of research on sepsis, which includes a study into the clinical and cost-effectiveness of early resuscitation protocols for emerging septic shock. Other examples include a trial of vasopressin versus noradrenaline as initial therapy; a study on how risks associated with nutropenic sepsis are conveyed to and interpreted by patients undergoing chemotherapy; and there is also a very interesting project on a point-of-care test for sepsis.

Care Quality Commission (Healthwatch England Committee) Regulations 2012

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I will not speak at length this evening and will speak mainly of the issue of the independence of Healthwatch England. I was at the launch of Healthwatch England and met some of the members of the committee. As the noble Lord said, many come from wide and relevant backgrounds, and they were really enthusiastic about the task in hand. They represent all regions of the UK, disabilities and gender. I understand that the full committee is now appointed.

There is an undoubted need for a patient watchdog, as we have heard. Many hours were spent in debate in this Chamber, in Committee and on Report, on the Health and Social Care Bill to try to mould it as best as possible to achieve that. During that debate, some of us carried out a campaign with Ministers outside the Chamber as well as inside, but there was no acknowledgement that the siting of Healthwatch England as a committee within the Care Quality Commission would cause concern. Indeed, it was said that the connection would be beneficial to the process and result in improved channels of communication.

Those arguments are now past, and Healthwatch England is now constituted, but the secondary legislation we are discussing today is silent on the issue of independence. We are left to wonder whether that is a missed opportunity or a deliberate omission. I always look on the bright side, so let us assume that it is a missed opportunity.

We know that the chief executive officer of the CQC holds the budget for Healthwatch England. What safeguards are in place to ensure that the money is not used to support core Care Quality Commission business or, indeed, to prevent the board of the Care Quality Commission, of which the chair of Healthwatch England herself is a member, saying that the way that the Healthwatch England committee wanted to spend the allocation was not as it thought fit?

If so, where does that put both the Care Quality Commission and Healthwatch England—and, indeed, the confidence of the public in their watchdog—if a future chair of Healthwatch England goes native or a chair of the Care Quality Commission becomes overbearing? That is a reflection not on personalities or individuals but on roles and responsibilities. Both current incumbents of those positions have assured me that that could never happen, but we all know of instances where what seemed perfectly good appointments change the way that they work over time. Working arrangements honoured under one regime may not carry over to a successor.

I commend the work that Anna Bradley has done thus far in setting up the organisation and her commitment and understanding of the role. She has said:

“We will be accountable to Parliament not the CQC ... We will work with the CQC as strategic partners. Guarding that independence will be a very important aspect of my job and the committee’s job”.

As I said, Anna Bradley sits on the Care Quality Commission board as part of her role and is appointed directly by the Health Secretary. She is adamant that the patients’ champion will be fully independent from the regulator.

A set of arrangements has been developed to safeguard the independence of Healthwatch England, whose budget—£3 million in 2012-13—is determined by the Department of Health. Healthwatch England will have full editorial independence over its publications; its committee will set its own priorities; and the chair will appoint the committee, ensuring that a majority are not Care Quality Commission commissioners, and oversee the work of Healthwatch England’s director, its senior officer. Any disputes between the Care Quality Commission and Healthwatch should be resolved through “open and frank discussion”, with the Department of Health responsible for resolving any intractable issues.

The Government’s intention was clear about the independence of Healthwatch England when the Bill was being debated, and it is to be regretted that that did not find its way into legislation or this secondary regulation. This organisation will be closely watched. Its relationships with partners are clearly defined in legislation. Its first chair has been absolutely explicit about its independence very early in her appointment, with the clear support of both the CEO and the chair of the hosting organisation, the Care Quality Commission.

I want Healthwatch England and local Healthwatch to succeed. We owe that to all patients across the country. With all the changes working their way through the NHS and the care system—it is essential that, despite its name, we should not forget that Healthwatch watches after health and care—it is imperative that it is working as efficiently as possible to its agenda, not that of the many stakeholders. For the sake of the public, those in receipt of care, it must succeed.

I would welcome reassurance from my noble friend that the lack of regulation or independence will not impede Healthwatch England’s independent operation and an indication of how that can be guaranteed.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on this Prayer. She has highlighted the weakness in the Government’s position. I am confident that the people who have set up Healthwatch England are of good will and that they intend and wish it to work; that Anna Bradley will be an excellent person as chair of Healthwatch England; that the outgoing chair of the Care Quality Commission is committed to making it work; and that the chief executive of the Care Quality Commission is committed to making it work. I even believe that Ministers in the Department of Health are committed to making it work.

The problem is that we are provided with a framework of regulation which does not guarantee that in future. One or two appointments down the road, with a new leadership of the Care Quality Commission and, perhaps, with different Ministers at the Department of Health, how will those things be ensured, especially if budgets remain tight and Healthwatch England starts to be effective and makes criticisms which are difficult for Ministers—or, worse still, in this context, for the Care Quality Commission? That is when those problems may arise.

That is why, when the Bill was passing through this House, there was so much concern about the importance of independence for the Healthwatch structure. My concern is that, given that the legislation has passed, this is a wasted opportunity to make it stronger.

One of the lessons that is expected to come from the Mid-Staffs inquiry relates to independence. The report is expected to identify the systemic failure of organisations to focus primarily on the needs of the patients of that hospital. Because each was looking at its own area, nobody was taking the step back to say, “How does this work from the point of view of patients?”. That is where Healthwatch should come in and be influential: to cut through the complicated organisational structures which the Health and Social Care Act has bequeathed to the NHS. That is why the simple issue of how it preserves its independence is so vital.

When the Bill was going through Parliament, the noble Earl held a meeting to discuss how Healthwatch England should work. He made the point that there would be valuable synergies from Healthwatch England being located within the Care Quality Commission. He did not stress, but it was clearly part of the equation, that there would also be some useful cost savings associated with that. The cost savings could be achieved in a whole variety of ways. It would be possible to have an agency agreement whereby some of the back office functions were provided by the Care Quality Commission or any of the plethora of structures that the Health and Social Care Act has bequeathed to the NHS. Similarly, because the duty of co-operation exists, you would hope that those synergies could be activated without the need for the Healthwatch organisation to be subservient to the Care Quality Commission. It would have been possible in these regulations to create a structure which, while preserving the general framework of the Act, would ensure that there was independence.

If we look at the regulations that we have before us, we see a number of flaws. First and foremost, for example, is the size of the Healthwatch England committee. Potentially, this will be a committee of as few as six members. I appreciate that in the initial instance it is larger than that, because people of goodwill are trying to make this structure work. However, in three, four or five years’ time there may not quite be the same atmosphere or there may be a feeling that the wings of Healthwatch England need to be clipped back. In any event, with six to 12 members it is going to be extremely difficult to ensure that there really is the geographical diversity that is necessary; the coverage of all the many major areas of special need that exist as far as health and social care is concerned; and proper recognition of ethnicity and gender within that. Again, the initial membership has provided a reasonable attempt to achieve that diversity, but where is the guarantee of that in the future?

I know there is a feeling that small boards work well. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, who is not in her place on this occasion, has talked to us glowingly about the value of having small, dynamic boards to run organisations but this is a different sort of organisation. It is supposed to be one that represents the generality of the interests of patients across the whole country and which derives its authority from what is happening in local Healthwatch organisations around the country—the 150-odd local organisations that will exist. It is therefore not appropriate to have a small board in such a case, as it is not the same sort of structure.

Then we have the rather strange arrangements for the appointment process. In the first instance, the chair of Healthwatch England has to get the approval of the chair of the Care Quality Commission before appointments can be made. The future arrangements are that the chair will make the appointments directly but let us be clear: the chair of Healthwatch England is a Secretary of State appointment and has the potential to be the poodle of the Department of Health. I have been in the position of being in charge of the organisation representing patients and I remember successive Secretaries of State, from two parties, making attacks on the organisation because we were being effective and raising issues that were uncomfortable.

Under those circumstances, can we be satisfied with a future arrangement whereby the Secretary of State solely makes the appointment of that individual, who then appoints all the other members of the Healthwatch England committee? In the initial stage, you have a double lock where the chair of the Care Quality Commission gets involved but in future you will have someone who might be appointed as a poodle or to muzzle the watchdog nature of Healthwatch England appointing individuals who are, no doubt, like-minded. That is why the arrangements are strange.

We then have the provision for suspending members, which is set out here. Presumably, the suspension is different from disqualification but the Secretary of State may dispense with the chair of Healthwatch England for a variety of reasons, which includes,

“failing to carry out those duties”.

Who is going to determine what those duties should be? Essentially, we are being told that the Secretary of State will decide what he or she thinks is appropriate for Healthwatch England to be carrying out. Again, the chair then has similar powers in respect of individual members. I make a specific request of the Minister: that in his reply he spells out absolutely that it will not be appropriate for either the chair or the members of Healthwatch England to be suspended from their membership if they are pursuing their interpretation of what is in the interests of patients and their organisations, and the people that they represent.