Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill. I draw the attention of the House to my interests: I was a non-executive director of a health authority, and am chair of ISCAS, the Independent Sector Complaints Adjudication Service.

I welcome the Bill in so far as it contains changes that the NHS requested, promoting local collaboration and reducing bureaucracy. My only hesitation is how such a fundamental reorganisation will affect the NHS when it is already under such huge pressure from the pandemic.

While the Bill is mostly structural, the real test is whether it will deliver positive change for patients. I note that one of its aims is to deliver a range of targeted measures to support people at all stages of life. In the debate on 14 October, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, spoke movingly about hospice and social care. Can my noble friend please tell me whether the integrated care systems will have a duty to commission end-of-life and palliative care services to meet the needs of the population? I think I was told that, at present, 60% of these have to be raised from charity, which is unimaginable for other forms of healthcare. Surely, end of life is a critical and essential time when a patient needs most support.

Continuity of care is also a very important factor, especially in the care of the very young and the very old. In the debate of 14 October, I cited an article in the Times about a Norwegian study published in the British Journal of General Practice, which demonstrated the benefits of having the same GP for years. It showed that those who had the same doctor for between two and three years were about 13% less likely to need out-of-hours care, 12% less likely to be admitted to hospital and 8% less likely to die that year, rising to 30%, 28% and 25% after 15 years. It was stated:

“It can be lifesaving to be treated by a doctor who knows you.”


Yet in the UK, GP practices are becoming bigger, and the relationship between doctors and patients less constant. While patients over 75 in the UK are also given a named GP, some doctors interpret this as just having to look at patient records. While I understand that patients who wish to be seen urgently cannot always see their GP that day, how can a doctor deliver appropriate and responsible care of a patient without ever meeting them?

To deliver good healthcare and care needs good staff, and the BMA estimates that the NHS is currently facing a shortfall of 50,000 doctors. Many GP practices seem overstretched. Can we ensure that we train more GPs and change the system so that it is advantageous for them to work in GP practices rather than as locums? I know that many people now feel that they have to fight to get an appointment with a GP, or are simply unable to get one. We need to ensure that carers, both paid and unpaid, get the recognition and status that they deserve. A good carer is invaluable and we have a shortage of them too.

I hope that these changes in the Bill will ensure more focus on prevention rather than cure—reducing smoking and obesity, ensuring a better diet and other initiatives would result in a healthier nation. Health checks and screening are also important, to pick up issues such as cancer earlier, when it is easier to treat. Checks for older people are also vital to pick up issues early so that they can lead fuller lives and thus need less care—which all reduces the burden on the NHS.

Part 4 of the Bill will establish the Health Services Safety Investigations Body in statute. The impact of clinical negligence on a patient and their family can be devastating. Moreover, the costs have quadrupled in the last 15 years to £2.2 billion in 2020-21, equivalent to 1.5% of the NHS budget and eating into resources that should be available for front-line care. Surely we urgently need to find a better way to deal with these cases rather than resorting to law, which can take years to settle, putting a patient through yet more stress. I gather that nearly a quarter of the costs of clinical negligence go to legal fees.

I congratulate those who campaigned—and welcome the provisions—to make the practice of virginity testing an offence. It is a horribly demeaning process and an abuse against women. However, surely it is inextricably linked with hymenoplasty, and any commitment to ban it will be undermined if we do not ban them both together.

To conclude, in welcoming this Bill I am mindful that how we treat our elderly, infirm and ill of health is a measure of our society. We must not be found wanting.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 3 & Committee stage
Tuesday 18th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, whatever view we take on assisted dying, I think that there is general agreement that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, deserves a great deal of support in her two amendments. The predicament that we find ourselves in is that the Minister will probably reject them and say that the Government will ensure that the NHS prioritises these services in the future. The trouble is that we have been here many times before, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said. He mentioned 2016, but in 2015 the Economist produced its last quality of death index, as far as I can find out, which basically said that the UK had the best palliative care in the world, but it was very patchy. I am afraid that the situation has simply not moved on.

So the question is: what should we do? Clearly, it is not going to get better if you leave it to the health service. It treats hospices dreadfully, with continuous late contract signing and short-term contract signing by bodies that should be able to agree three-year rolling contracts with those institutions. The lack of priority that is given suggests to me that, unless we take legislative action, we will not see any improvement at all. That is the quandary for us in terms of collectively agreeing a way forward that makes it clear to the NHS that time is up on its neglect of palliative care. We really must take action.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, I too have put my name to these amendments, so ably introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. Because this is the first time that I have spoken at this stage of the Bill, I remind your Lordships to refer to my Second Reading speech and entry in the register of interests for my experience and links around the topic of health. The hour is late, so I shall try to be very brief.

Although Clause 16 currently lists a number of services that the ICBs are required to commission, it fails extraordinarily to include palliative care. We have already heard that current estimates suggest that, although as many as 90% of people who die have a palliative care need, only 50% currently receive that care—only half. I find it somewhat horrifying that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, told us, a Marie Curie survey found that 64% of people who died at home did not get adequate care, with pain management.

Like others who have spoken, I know from personal experience of family members how hard it was for them to get the care they needed at the end of their life. I am sure that everyone here can share examples of exceptional local hospices, especially facing the challenges of the pandemic, that currently have to fundraise to be able to do the work to fill these gaps—as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, told us, they sell cakes. It is quite extraordinary. I pay tribute to the outstanding work of the hospices and the wonderful palliative care doctors for the amazing support they give to those who are dying and their families.

Although I recognise the Government’s concerns about overprescribing the list of services that integrated care boards should commission, it seems anomalous for the Bill to proceed with priority given to ensuring that ICBs commission maternity and other services but have no explicit requirement to commission palliative care services. I am sure that this was not the Government’s intention, but I am concerned that the current drafting implies that health services for people at the end stage of their life are less important than health services for people at earlier stages. Surely the end of life is one of the times when care is needed most. I find it extraordinary that we are even having this discussion.

The addition of these amendments offers a unique opportunity to ensure that nobody with a terminal illness misses out on the care and support that they need, both now and in the future. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s views on these amendments, which will help us to ensure that all of us have the end-of-life experience that we would hope and wish for when our time comes.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, if we were having this debate about any other service in the NHS, people would be aghast. Can noble Lords imagine the response if we said that your access to dental treatment would be determined by the number of books sold; that your access to maternity services would be based on the number of jumble sales held; or that, ultimately, your access to ophthalmology would be dependent on the number of cakes and coffees sold at an afternoon party? These examples are no different from that of specialist palliative care, a service that is meant to be from cradle to grave. The unfortunate reason why the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, has had to table her amendment, supported by other noble Lords, is that, for too many years, promises have been given but the services have not been delivered because the NHS does not commission parity of service across England.

I know quite a lot of people who work in the health service who are decent, hard-working and genuine, but the fact is that palliative care is seen by too many as an add-on and not central to the services they are providing. I do not blame them for that because, unfortunately, that is the behaviour that sometimes happens when the NHS does not have a mandate to provide specialist palliative care and people think that the local charity shop funds it. The noble Baroness has had to table Amendment 52 because we need to be clear about what this service is. It is not about just those last few days or weeks; it is not about just putting someone in a hospice. It is about giving psychological and medical care and support throughout a whole process to people with a life-threatening illness or who are at the end of life. This service needs to be commissioned against a clear understanding and definition of specialist palliative care.

I agree with many noble Lords: people across this country have waited far too long for access to specialist palliative care funded by the taxpayer. This does not mean that some of the charitable work would not continue, but such care should be a right and a service, funded by the taxpayer, which says that people will be looked after from cradle to grave.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, I support this amendment, so ably moved by my noble friend Lord Blencathra and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Noble Lords have already heard the well-versed and evidenced arguments put forward and, while the amendment does not specifically refer to China, there can be no doubt that the well-documented example of the horrific treatment of the Uighur people in Xinjiang province would fall under its scope.

We have all heard today about the hundreds of millions of pounds-worth of healthcare goods that have flooded into this country since the start of the pandemic, much of it sourced from China. We would expect our Government to make every effort to disentangle our supply chains from implication in these atrocities, so was any due diligence carried out throughout our procurement process? This amendment would correct that oversight if it was not.

I do not want to repeat everything that has already been said by others, but I want to highlight the importance of the risk-assessment aspect in proposed new subsection (3). I anticipate that the Minister will highlight the work already being done by government departments to weed out companies with slave labour in their supply chains. Perhaps sometimes they are being asked to perform an impossible task, because I understand that supply chains in the Uighur region of China are almost entirely opaque. It is suggested that the area is rife with systematic forced labour, that audits there are worthless and that workers live in fear and terror of telling the truth. Indeed, as we have already heard, the US Government have just passed legislation presuming that all imports from the region are tainted unless proven otherwise.

Surely, it is our responsibility, as a signatory to the genocide convention, to do all that we can to prevent genocide when there is a serious risk of it taking place. This amendment builds on the work that we have already done in this regard. We cannot continue business as usual with China or any other state that condones or supports genocide. I ask the Government to act urgently to ensure that our supply chains are not tainted by goods made with Uyghur forced labour. I ask Members on all sides of your Lordships’ House to join us and reassert our commitment to global human rights and to provide the protection against genocide, wherever it is needed, by supporting this amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I too support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. As we are really talking about procurement in the NHS, I should declare my interest as president of the Health Care Supply Association.

It is entirely reasonable to use NHS procurement rules in this way. The noble Earl knows that Clause 70 is intended to give wide discretion to Ministers to bring in a new procurement regime. I see no reason why this cannot be part of that regime.

I sometimes think the NHS operates in isolation from what is happening in the world, but it cannot operate in isolation from the terrible things that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and other noble Lords have spoken about. I hope the noble Earl will be sympathetic.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 4th February 2022 Lords Chamber

I said that a measure of a decent society is how well it looks after those who have suffered harm, especially where that harm has been avoidable. Having met many hundreds of people who have suffered and having heard from many more, I am clear that help is needed and deserved. People should not be made to wait any longer. I know that my colleagues on the Front Bench are compassionate people. I have met my noble friend Lord Kamall and others. I thank them for their precious time and I know that these issues are understood. On behalf of all those suffering now, I ask my noble friend to consider further and to seek a way by which a responsible Government can alleviate the suffering that has ruined so many lives.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 268, to which I have added my name, and thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for moving it so eloquently. I also support the two other amendments in this group.

I declare my interest as chair of ISCAS—the Independent Sector Complaints Adjudication Service—and because I have been involved personally in two clinical negligence situations. The first involved a death. We did not take legal action but tried to get answers. Answers were very difficult to obtain because all the papers that the hospital had disappeared. On the second, we had to take legal action.

Amendment 288 will, as discussed, do exactly what it says on the tin. It will ensure an independent review of the process for handling clinical negligence. The present situation where the only solution is to resort to law to get damages is far from satisfactory. Where a patient sustains damage, as my noble friend Lady Cumberlege so eloquently explained, the impact on them and their family is utterly devastating. In some cases, there is a need to get damages, because the situation means that there are ongoing costs for ongoing care, as we have just heard. They need financial help in these situations. Legal cases can often take years to settle. The one that I helped with took five or six years going over and over what happened, going to endless meetings, going to meetings with the lawyers and chasing the lawyers, who seemed to have dropped it. It was unbelievably stressful. I cannot think that anybody would want to go down that route unless they really had to. For the patient, if they are still alive, or the relatives, it means reliving and reliving the incident on top of coming to terms with the damage that has been inflicted.

Moreover, I understand that the costs of medical negligence have quadrupled in the last 15 years to £2.2 billion in 2020-21, equivalent to 1.5% of the NHS budget. I understand that about 25% of this goes on legal fees. I believe we urgently need to find a better way to deal with these cases, rather than resorting to the law. Not only do long, drawn-out legal wrangles put patients through years of unnecessary stress, but huge legal fees eat into the resources that should be available for front-line care.

An independent review would hopefully be able to examine and deliver a more satisfactory solution for patients and the NHS alike, and I hope the Minister can support this amendment.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and others for the amendments in this group, which would help transform some of the long-standing problems in social care, as well as improve the quality of life of patients and their families, especially those who care for them. I will speak to Amendment 297D, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which seeks the establishment of a review into institutional abuses in care settings within six months of the passing of this Act.

Amendment 297D talks about the effects of restrictive visiting and eviction notices

“on the emotional, psychological, social and physical health of service users, and on the well-being of service users”

and their families. Obviously, “restrictions on visiting” has taken on a whole new meaning throughout the Covid-19 pandemic. I note that the Rights for Residents campaign group has secured more than 270,000 signatures on a petition for a law that ensures that

“every resident has the legally enforced right to the support of an essential visitor”.

Currently, homes are meant to support an essential caregiver for all residents—but this is advisory and some homes are still imposing blanket bans on visits. That may be because they have some Covid infections inside the home, but that is not universally true.

There is still no clear picture of how visits are going on in care settings. These could be difficult for residents with dementia, for example, if there is only a very small window for visiting—and perhaps it is just not the right time or the right day for them.

Unlock Care Homes is also doing work on this, including highlighting good practice. It is important to remember that most care homes are not just doing their best, they are doing really well with looking after their residents, despite the constraints of the pandemic, staff shortages and burnout.

Time and again, investigative journalists are uncovering practices going on in care settings that are inhuman, breach vulnerable residents’ human rights and damage patients’ mental, physical and psychological well-being. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, referred to a long list, and that list is indeed shameful.

A series of scandals led to a CQC report into restraint, seclusion and segregation for autistic people and people with a learning disability being commissioned in 2018. It was published in October 2020. The report said:

“We found too many examples of undignified and inhumane care in hospital and care settings where people were seen not as individuals but as a condition or a collection of negative behaviours … We also found that a lack of training and support for staff meant that they are not always able to care for people in a way that meets those individuals’ specific needs. This increases the risk of people being restrained, secluded or segregated.”


However, the Government have not yet commissioned a review of the entire sector, to understand and learn from the causes and poor practices that have resulted in those institutions failing their residents. Commissioning such a review would demonstrate that the Government really want to bring a halt to these practices.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 297A is in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Cumberlege, but I am also supportive of the other amendments in this group.

With people living ever longer, looking after older people so that they can stay healthier for longer is critical, as is ensuring that they receive the care they need and have a dignified and secure old age. Amendment 297A seeks to introduce a new clause that will not only lower, from 75 to 65, the age at which every patient is assigned a named GP but sets out to ensure that named GPs will actually have to meet and have some knowledge of each patient they are responsible for, and will communicate directly with them and the family.

We need to encourage everyone to take responsibility for their health. Having good and regular health checks is an essential part of the prevention of ill health, as well as leading to earlier identification of conditions and earlier interventions. I am sure that other noble Lords who are doctors will put me right, but I was once told that 65 is an age where things can start to go wrong. Therefore, it is important to start monitoring people’s health and being able to identify changes from this age. This will deliver better outcomes and may also enable people to stay at home and lead a fuller life for longer. The role of the GP in all this is absolutely critical.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

I also join the noble Lord’s tribute to Lady Hollis, who was such a tremendous source of value in this House, including, as many of your Lordships will remember, the time when she was able to get the House to set aside the order about capital provision for poorer people.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. Having spoken on this in Committee, I simply thank my noble friend the Minister for bringing forward Amendment 16 to include palliative care services in the list of things required by ICBs to commission. We all agree that the end of life is one of those times when care is needed most, and I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on all her work on this, and all those who spoke in support in Committee.

This is an example of where the Government have truly listened and responded to concerns voiced on all sides of the House. They have made the most of the Bill’s unique opportunity to ensure that nobody with a terminal illness misses out on the care and support they need, both now and in the future.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, without whom this amendment would not have been laid by the Government —although I pay tribute to the Government for listening to her. As she said, it could be game-changing—I say “could be” because unless the resources are made available for these services and for training enough of the health professionals needed to carry them out and make them available everywhere, it will not be game-changing. I would like a reassurance from the Minister that adequate resources will be made available so that, as appropriate, ICBs can carry out the duty that will be put on them.

I was horrified to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, mention a hospice with half its beds empty. I hope additional resources will be provided for hospices. I clearly remember somebody saying in Committee that you would not expect to have a coffee morning or a cake bake to treat a broken leg; you should not have to do the same sort of thing for services at the end of life. I hope the Minister will bear in mind the possibility that additional resources should go there.

We have heard that services are patchy across the country, and I suggest that the worst patchiness is in services for people dying at home. I know it is not easy to provide 24-hour services and advice to a family doing their best to try to care for somebody dying at home, but it must be done. I am afraid I know friends who have had a very bad experience of that. The person at the end of life had a bad experience, and the family have never forgotten it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has often told us, it is possible for everybody to have a good death if the right services are provided to them. That means a good experience too for the family, who simply want to know that they have done the best and that that has been enough.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to add my name to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McColl. I am not going to say very much in support, because the background has already been explained. Without a diagnosis, people living with dementia cannot access the community support they need.

I will add one specific group who experience dementia, which is people with Down’s syndrome. Some 60% of people with Down’s syndrome will develop Alzheimer’s by the age of 60. A lot of research on Alzheimer’s has been developed from an understanding of Down’s syndrome and the changes that take place in people’s brains. The manifesto pledged to double the funding for dementia research. The amount is interesting. It was a commitment of £800 million over 10 years for dementia research. To put that figure into context, the co-chair of the APPG on dementia, Debbie Abrahams, has stated that dementia currently costs our economy £34.7 billion each year. I therefore support this amendment requiring integrated care partnerships to include a strategy to improve both the diagnosis of dementia and dementia research, which has the potential to improve the lives of so many people in the UK.

I also added my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Finlay. I, too, began my medical career as a GP. I therefore support my noble friend Lord Crisp’s amendments. It also has some relevance to my later practice in psychiatry. Having worked as a general practitioner in south London, I began to understand the importance of social factors in the development of mental illness and in the ability of my patients to live with whatever long-term condition they might have. As a community psychiatrist I have extensive experience of practicing medicine that addresses people’s biological, psychological and social needs, and I have been a prominent advocate of the least restrictive practices. Best practice includes facilitating robust, multidisciplinary mental health care in the community where it is a feasible alternative to treatment in hospital and, when admission is needed, helping people to be discharged back into the community at the earliest point so that their recovery can continue in the community, close to family and friends. As a mother, I advocated for effective community rehabilitation for my daughter after she become quadriplegic, which was a much better option than the nursing home care that she was initially offered.

Robust integration between multiple disciplines within health and social care is essential to ensure the high-quality, coherent, consistent and readily accessible community rehabilitation that can promote physical and mental health and help people to thrive to their full potential within communities. I am very pleased to support my noble friend’s amendment. I should declare an interest as president of the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, a profession which has a particular contribution to make in community rehabilitation.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, before I speak to my amendment I would like to put on record that I particularly support my noble friend Lord McColl’s Amendment 62, which considers the needs of those with dementia. I also support the thrust of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on better rehabilitation. Perhaps the concept of convalescence, as it used to be called, would help free acute beds and thus save money. I also support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, to ensure that integrated care boards work with primary care and, I hope, with community nursing as well.

Amendment 177 is in my name. Much of the Bill is about the architecture of the NHS, and it is important that we get it right. However, the success of the Bill will be whether it delivers for patients. As we have discussed before, healthcare needs to be patient focused. At the moment we sadly have a system where the traditional idea of a family doctor who knows their patients is too often disappearing. Why has this been allowed to happen when we know it worked so well? We need somehow to get an element of that back. I understand that today many doctors in general practice find their role far less satisfactory, with fewer people wanting to go into general practice. I am given to understand that a large element of this has to do with the fact that fewer doctors know their patients, whereas in years gone by they would know and look after the whole family and be part of the community.

With people living ever longer, looking after older people so that they can stay healthier for longer is critical, as is ensuring that they receive the care they need and have a dignified and secure old age. This amendment would introduce a new clause that lowers from 75 to 65 the age at which every patient is assigned a named GP, which would help with prevention, an issue raised by my noble friend Lord Farmer in his amendment. The amendment would also ensure that named GPs actually have to meet and have some knowledge of each patient they are responsible for, and to communicate directly with them and their family.

I will not reiterate all the facts and figures I gave in Committee. I merely remind your Lordships that studies have shown that, quite simply, being treated by a doctor who really knows you can be life-saving. Quality care by a named GP benefits patients by delivering continuity of care and therefore better healthcare, and by keeping more people out of hospital, relieving some of the burden on the NHS.

Following the debate in Committee, I have added proposed subsection (2) to enable the role of the named GP to be “delegated” to another doctor in the practice who might be chosen and preferred by the patient. But this amendment ensures that patients will have someone who actually has some knowledge of them and whom they or their relatives can turn to for help, care and advice.

I was very disappointed that, in Committee, my noble friend the Minister failed to grasp the significant difference between current regulations, guidance and what happens in practice. I have personal proof that, as things stand, some named GPs are able to choose not to know the patients they are responsible for. This amendment seeks to positively address that.

I urge the Minister to reconsider and accept these proposed changes to the Bill. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that primary healthcare is incredibly important. This whole area really needs an in-depth debate because it is breaking down in some places.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I will make just a few comments. I put my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McColl, which I will not say much about because he and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, have said it all.

However, I will make one point about the importance of early diagnosis. As most noble Lords will know, Alzheimer’s is a complex range of diseases, and it is very important for the patient that their doctor is able to know what sort of Alzheimer’s they have so that an appropriate set of support can be prescribed. The other very important reason is that we do not yet have a disease-modifying cure. Unless more suitable patients go forward for clinical trials, the researchers will not be able to do their research, no matter how much money the Government put forward. We know that 80% of people who put themselves forward for a dementia clinical trial have to be rejected because their disease has progressed too far. So, we really need early diagnosis so that the researchers have some chance of finding the cure that we all want.

Secondly, I will say two things about primary care. The noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, talked about patients having to see a doctor they have never seen before within their practice. Well, now—and I would like the Minister’s answer to this—not only are people ringing up and going to a doctor in the practice whom they have never seen before; in London, they are now being referred to a completely different practice, because something like five practices share patients. I understand that that is a temporary measure during the pandemic, but could the noble Lord confirm that that is the case? Could he also confirm that it is going to end once we believe the pandemic is over, which of course it is not yet?

I shall say a few words about the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. It is vital, as he rightly said, that primary care has a role in planning the commissioning of services. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, a lot of expertise has been developed, and it must not be lost. It is vital because primary care services are the gateway for a patient to everything else in the health service; it is the first port of call for a patient and, without a referral from a GP, on the whole you cannot get to anything else.

I very much support what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, is doing and look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the reasons why primary care services do not appear to be treated equally with NHS trusts and foundation trusts.