Trade Bill
Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, the two Motions standing in my name give effect to a decision taken last week to move the Trade Bill into the Chamber tomorrow and on Thursday for the remainder of its Committee stage. As a result, the Social Security (Up-rating of Benefits) Bill’s Second Reading debate will need to move into Grand Committee tomorrow. This will mean that more time can be spent on the Trade Bill, which has made relatively slow progress in Grand Committee. Those noble Lords who signed up to speak on those Bills were notified over the weekend, and I am grateful to the other members of the usual channels for the constructive nature of the discussions we had on Friday. I beg to move.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
I thank the Chief Whip for tabling these Motions, which we undoubtedly support. In fact, we welcome the proper time to discuss the Trade Bill that this allows, prior to Report. However, it raises the question of the seriousness with which our amendments are then considered by the House of Commons. On another Bill, the all-important Agriculture Bill, we see that our so-called Curry amendment has effectively been deemed to need a money resolution. However, it was the Government, not the Speaker, who
“considers it probable that the … cost to public expenditure would be significant (and would go beyond what could be met under existing authorisation … by the Secretary of State).”
That statement by the Government begs two questions. First, what is the limit? Secondly, what is the Government’s estimate of the cost of Amendment 18? The result of this estimation—the figures which we have not seen—effectively denies the House of Commons the chance to consider amendments sent by your Lordships’ House, whether it is the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Curry, the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Grantchester or any amendment that will emerge on the Trade Bill.
Certainly, should key amendments passed by your Lordships’ House be set aside, perhaps a bit peremptorily without proper consideration, the Government should not be surprised if the proponents of those amendments use ping-pong to find a way of ensuring that the issues are properly debated in the other place.
So we welcome this Motion on the Trade Bill but, looking forward, we need to be clear that devices will not be used to set aside amendments, should they be passed by your Lordships’ House.
Business of the House
Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
No, I cannot, as I do not know how long the problem will take to fix. Obviously, if it is not fixed after the deferred Divisions are over, we will not be able to continue with the immigration Bill since we need the virtual participants to be able to hear. I will come back to your Lordships once I have been told the situation in respect of the technical difficulties. I hope that makes sense.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, I wonder whether it is worth leaving a little more latitude in the Chief Whip’s hands so that at 2.15 pm he may know what time the Oral Questions will be. An enormous number of people will need to physically change their plans. Most people who are preparing for the Report stage of the immigration Bill know that it will be going on this afternoon—and, perhaps, this evening and for a long time. For the sake of those waiting for Oral Questions, I just wonder if we could give a little more leeway to the Chief Whip so that if at 2.15 pm he has a little more idea, we can notify the people preparing for Oral Questions.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
That is a good idea. I will make sure that noble Lords have some warning of when Oral Questions will be. I shall certainly let Members know the timing as soon as possible. I commit to coming back to the House as soon as I know and, if necessary, making a statement about the timings of business, even if that means temporarily interrupting the business at hand. Basically, I will let noble Lords know as soon as I know.
Recess Dates
Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I agree that it does immediately look odd, but the reasons are that we have looked at the business that needs to be done and the dates that would allow it. The amount of time that has to pass between different stages of Bills means that it is imperative that we come back that week. I accept that for some people, myself included, it will cause difficulties, but we have looked at that. Of course, if circumstances change and we make tremendous progress, we could look at it again, but that has been communicated to the usual channels. The reason that we need to come back for those two days is to get business started during that week, but I am entirely able to look at that at a later date if it is not necessary. I take the point about two days in a week basically disrupting the whole week.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
I do not think that I misheard the Chief Whip, but can he indicate whether these are the same dates as the House of Commons will sit? From the nodding, it looks as if they are. I will let him answer; obviously, we understand the need to get on with legislation. However, it has always been of some interest that we should sit the same days as the Commons, wherever that is possible.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The House of Commons has not announced its recess dates yet. I wanted to make sure that, as far as we were concerned, noble Lords had the earliest possible opportunity to plan. I can see why we should be aligned with the House of Commons to a certain extent, but it is an important principle that we do not always have to sit at the same time as the House of Commons. Sometimes the Commons is at a different stage of legislation from us, so every Chief Whip reserves the right to alter dates due to the progress of business. I do not know when the House of Commons is going to announce its dates, but it has not done so yet, so I cannot confirm whether they are exactly the same.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I am very content with that and, as I say, we understand the need for this. It does mess up my holiday, but even I might forgive the Chief Whip for that—for once.