Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick]

I am sure that there would be ample room for argument in the courts. I am concerned that we do not leave matters of this importance, in relation to a Bill that confers such exceptional powers on the Executive, to legal argument for the future. It is our task and our responsibility to ensure that these matters are clearly stated in the legislation that we are considering.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I endorse the words of both noble Lords, Lord Lester of Herne Hill and Lord Pannick. I urge the Minister and the Committee to do the same.

Amendments 14 and 107 seek to ensure that, in any move to abolish, merge or alter the various organisations listed in the various schedules, the Minister must have regard to the original powers or objectives laid down in law for those bodies. It would therefore not be enough to say simply, “We can save money by these changes”, although I always agree with saving money. The amendments would make it necessary to consider more than just the need for specialist and technical expertise, much though I also support that; and more than simply independence from government, as has been spoken of, much as I also concur with that.

Parliament needs to be satisfied that the raison d'être of each body—its objective, as set down in statute—will be protected and continued under whichever body takes over from the abolished, reformed or merged organisation. I would like to give four brief examples listed in the schedules where legislation has been passed, including through this House, to give powers or duties to those organisations. We need assurance that, in any change to their status, the very purpose and duties for which they were set up should be retained, even if carried out in a more resource-efficient way.

I start with the Legal Services Board; I declare an interest as chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel, which is funded by the Legal Services Board. The Legal Services Act 2007 requires the establishment of the board, and says that it,

“must … act in a way … compatible with the”,

Act’s “regulatory objectives”, which are about,

“protecting and promoting the public interest … supporting the constitutional principle of the rule of law … improving access to justice … promoting competition in the provision of services”,

and,

“encouraging an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession”.

The Act also demands that the board promotes adherence to the professional principles of lawyers, which are to,

“act with independence and integrity … act in the best interests of their clients”,

and,

“comply with their duty to the court to act with independence in the interests of justice”.

This goes further than judicial independence—important though that is; those objectives would need to be retained. My amendment would ensure that those objectives were still met if there were any alteration to the board’s set-up. They are absolutely central to the administration of justice.

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[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

The noble Baroness makes a powerful case, but can she help me? The powers in the Bill are wide enough to deal with bodies that have outlived their useful life or are in need of substantial and radical reform. My idea is that it would be a sensible way forward to hedge the powers with sufficient safeguards. What about the noble Baroness’s approach? What happens if Ministers rationally and proportionately decide that body X has outlived its useful purpose or needs radical reform? Would not her Amendment 107 produce a situation of fossilisation?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

The idea is that they should have regard to those objectives. If the objectives are no longer required, or if they could be dealt with in a different way by a different body, that would be one thing. My concern is that if we look only at the issue of independence—which I spoke about, and stressed the importance of, at Second Reading—this will not be sufficient if the power given by the Bill to a body to make sure something happens is still needed. There is nothing else in the Bill as it stands—and even with the other amendments—to make sure that those duties, for example to look after the interests of consumers in rural areas, or of vulnerable consumers, are still carried out. They must have regard to those interests, but my concern is that the purpose for which primary legislation set up these bodies, and the duties which it gave them, should be considered by the Minister before he exercises his power. In passing the Bill, Parliament must be confident that where the functions are still needed, they will still exist under the new body, which will have the same strength to safeguard whichever group of users or vulnerable people or pension members whose interests are covered by the 150 groups listed in Schedule 7. Therefore, the amendments in this group seek to ensure not only that the new bodies are independent, but that the purposes for which Parliament set up the old bodies, if they are still needed, will be retained by the new bodies, which will have the relevant powers.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, I am sorry to invite the Committee to listen to another lawyer quite so soon. I regret very much that, as I was abroad, I could not be present for Second Reading. However, I express my complete and respectful agreement with the speeches of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Woolf and Lord Mayhew, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and indeed many others. As a result of Second Reading, we now have before us very elaborate amendments covering the question of proper consultation and procedure. The amendments were pioneered by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Pannick, who were followed by Her Majesty's loyal Opposition and then by the Government. I will certainly vote for one of the amendments, and all three if necessary.

However, welcome though the amendments are, they do not hide the remaining glaring deformities of the Bill. In particular, I will concentrate on government Amendment 108 in this group, which has been referred to already by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Clause 8 establishes the two main objectives of the Bill: to bring about greater efficiency and accountability. The clause is said to be the great safeguard in the Bill. However, the moment I read about greater accountability to Ministers, I hear a warning signal. We should read carefully Amendment 108 to Clause 8. It states:

“For the purposes of the objective referred to in subsection (1)(b)”—

that is the accountability objective—

“the Minister must consider the extent to which functions affected by the order need to be exercised independently of Ministers—(a) because they require the exercise of professional or specialist expertise, or the making of decisions or giving of advice, by a person who is impartial as respects Ministers’ policy”.

I shall leave for the moment proposed new paragraph (b).

The moment I read that amendment to Clause 8, I began to feel that we were verging on a contradiction in terms. The whole objective, it is said, is to lead to greater accountability, yet at the same time it is said that the Minister is to take into account matters which emphasise the bodies’ independence of Ministers. I find it very difficult to see how these two apparently contradictory objectives can be reconciled. Exactly the same applies—perhaps even more so—to paragraph (b) in Amendment 108, which says,

“because they involve establishing facts in relation to, or oversight or scrutiny of, Ministers’ actions”.

It seems to me that, once the facts in relation to that are established regarding any of the bodies in Schedules 1 to 6, it must no longer be a matter for the Minister’s consideration—a point made effectively by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Once it is established that that is the purpose of the body in question, then surely it is not a matter for the Minister’s consideration; at that point, the body must be taken out of Schedules 1 to 6 altogether and left to primary legislation.

Either this amendment means nothing at all or, if it means anything, it is contradictory to the main objective and is therefore likely to lead to a great deal of litigation in the future, which one can easily envisage. In the mean time, however, if the relevant facts in relation to any particular body are established, then the only solution, with great respect, is to take that body out of Schedules 1 to 6 altogether.

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[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for asking a question which I am trying to answer as I speak. The Minister will have heard everyone around the Committee. I am sure that some of us recall what was once said by Archbishop William Temple in a famous lecture: “Whenever I travel on the Underground I always intend to buy a ticket, but the fact that there is a ticket collector at the other end just clinches it”. The Minister has heard the voice of a united Committee, and I am going to be pusillanimous and much criticised for my moderation in not dividing it. However, I do so as a friend and supporter of the coalition. Unless we get the amendments that have been asked for on all sides of the Committee, this Committee will act as the ticket collector rather than myself. If we are trying to achieve a constitutional Bill that we can pass, the right way to do that is not by flexing our muscles on Amendment 1 and proceeding on that basis.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Can the noble Lord explain the difference between the strength of feeling at Second Reading—which we agreed was very strong and very united, but not tested because of the protocols of this House—and the strength of feeling today? If I understand him, he feels that he has not yet been heard properly by the Government. Why does he think that the strength of feeling today is different from that on the previous occasion and, therefore, that it will be heeded on this occasion?

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I do not think that it is different. If anything, it is stronger; but it is certainly as strong as it was on Second Reading. I am trying to consider how best to persuade the coalition Government, whom I support, to make these changes. I believe that we will have more influence by not dividing the Committee. Having said what I have said, I hope that noble Lords, except those who are dying to win a vote, will hold off for now so that we can come back quite strongly—