Child Safety: Video Games
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Garden of Frognal
Again, the noble Baroness makes a very helpful point. There is a lot of information going out to schools in the form of posters. Of course, internet safety is one part of the school curriculum that tries to ensure that young people themselves are aware of what the dangers are. We are getting co-operation, and indeed funding, from the providers.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I do not know whether I heard the noble Baroness correctly. I think she said that traffic lights were being introduced on to the packaging for these things. It strikes me that indicating red for danger or red for encouragement might be a difficulty in this area. My main point is that PEGI is an industry-led body and that one increasingly finds that in video games inserts are being used from films and related materials. Is there not a case for trying to get co-ordination across this, and having some sort of accommodation with the BBFC?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The BBFC is indeed involved in this. It has just become the independent reviewer of the content of mobile operators and, as the noble Lord says, there is some overlap between what goes on in the film industry and what goes on in the video games industry. It is a question all the time of trying to keep one step ahead of cunning children, who have a tendency to be one step ahead of their parents.
Education: Student Loans
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The noble Lord mentions the burdensome debt that students are accruing, but I would again stress that they will begin to contribute back for what they have gained from their university education only after they graduate and are earning a salary. We will be monitoring the effect on students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I would also point out that there are very generous forms of mean-tested grants for students, while many universities have instituted all sorts of bursaries to try to make absolutely sure that no student feels disadvantaged because they come from a low-income family.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, students who took out loans under the previous Government pay interest based on the base rate plus 1%—so it is currently 1.5%—whereas those who have taken out loans since 2012 will pay RPI plus 3%, currently amounting 6.3%. Does the Minister agree with the recent HEFCE report which suggests that the new financial system contributed to a 12% reduction in students entering HE last autumn?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Those figures are not holding up as the noble Lord says, because substantial numbers of students are still applying for university. There was of course an increase last year when people applied early, ahead of the new scheme, but the figures we are getting back from the higher education authorities show that the numbers going into higher education are still holding up. We very much hope that the new fee structure will not be a deterrent; in fact, it may well help many of the students whom we most wish to attract to higher education.
Olympic Games: British Companies
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, I apologise to the House as I should have declared my interest as chairman of the British Olympic Association.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, just to get a flavour of what we are actually talking about, when the Olympic torch started out from Plymouth, LOCOG officials confiscated leaflets advertising an Olympic breakfast at a local café. The officials said that flaming torch bacon and egg baguettes were on the menu, which contradicted their guidelines. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, GDP is set to grow by 0.1% because of the Olympics. Presumably, that figure would have been much higher if the enterprise of the supplier companies had not been so grievously shackled in their marketing and advertising operations that we have heard about. Is the conclusion that we have to draw from this sorry episode that the Government have missed a golden opportunity here by caving in to LOCOG and to the IOC, to the detriment of our supplier companies?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I do not think that there is any question of the Government caving in to LOCOG. We reached agreement with LOCOG and the IOC on the way in which we would frame the Games. I remind the noble Lord that it was his Government who set up all these criteria in the first place. However, I agree that the case of the flaming torch sandwich will live on in the memory.
London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for tabling this amendment and allowing us to have another lively debate. I am also grateful to him for his comments about the spirit of co-operation and bipartisanship in which this Bill has been conducted. It has been a great pleasure to work with noble Lords in trying to ensure that we all achieve the best results for the Olympic and Paralympic Games.
On the matter of transport, I can assure the House that promotion of public transport is at the heart of our transport strategy for the Games and that detailed plans have already been set out in the Olympic Delivery Authority’s Olympic Transport Plan required by Section 10 of the 2006 Act. Indeed, the opening words of the most recent, June 2011, edition of that plan are:
“London 2012 will be the first ‘public transport’ Games”.
I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Ford and Lady Grey-Thompson, for their support for public transport, and the use of public transport, in the course of the Games. This might be the moment to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Myners, that Ministers will not use the ORN Games lanes.
Next summer the world will come to London to share in the excitement of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The Games will draw up to 600,000 ticketed spectators daily to London’s transport system. Many more will come to London and other venue cities to join in the wider celebrations. There will be up to 3 million additional trips in London on the busiest day of the Games, in addition to the 24 million trips normally made. It is the scale of the demands that this volume of visitors will place on our transport system, rather than the specific impacts of the operation of the Olympic route network for the Games family, that drives our strategy of promoting travel by public transport, walking or cycling at Games time. The Olympic route network roads will, as I explained in the Committee debate, almost all be fully open for normal traffic and the temporary traffic management measures necessary to make the network work effectively for the Games family will be implemented in a proportionate and targeted manner so as to minimise the impact on normal business. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for so clearly setting out, and exploding, some of the myths around transport in London at this time.
Our goal is that all spectators travel to the Games by public transport. We have invested £6.5 billion in transport infrastructure since 2005 to boost London’s transport capacity to enable spectators and visitors to get to their events and to keep London moving. Londoners are already benefitting from this transport legacy in advance of the Games. The improvements to the public transport system already delivered include a 50 per cent increase in Docklands Light Rail capacity with lines extended to Woolwich and Stratford International; extra capacity on the Jubilee line, with the signalling upgrade now complete and additional trains already operating at peak times, with more early in 2012; the new high-speed rail service between St Pancras, Stratford International, and destinations in Kent; refurbished and extended London Overground services on the East London and North London lines; upgrades to national rail services on the Lea Valley and Great Eastern lines; King’s Cross-St Pancras and Stratford regional stations essentially rebuilt and expanded, with step-free access and extra capacity; and step-free access now provided at Southfields, serving the Wimbledon venue, and at Green Park, a vital central transport hub during the Games. I have mentioned those facilities in some detail, given the numerous concerns about the problems of transport in London, to show that an awful lot of work has already taken place to improve transport facilities around the capital.
In addition to these upgrades, additional public transport capacity will be provided specifically at Games time. This includes: later evening services on the London Underground, DLR and national rail services from London, with trains running up to 90 minutes later than normal; a high-frequency Javelin rail shuttle service between St Pancras, Stratford International and Ebbsfleet; direct coach services from a range of cities across England and Wales to the Olympic Park, ExCel and Greenwich Park; park-and-ride services from three sites near the M25; and enhanced river services between central London and Greenwich. As a further encouragement to use public transport, all spectators will receive a free all-zones Travelcard for the day of their Games event ticket. A dedicated Games journey planner on the London 2012 website enables ticket holders to plan and book their journeys well in advance of the Games.
Taxis and private hire vehicles will play an important role at Games time, in particular as a travel option for those with reduced mobility. ODA and its partners are working closely with the industries to assess likely demand, to make them aware of the temporary traffic restrictions that will be in place and to mitigate their impact where possible. They are also working to ensure appropriate provision of pick-up and drop-off points at all of the Games venues as well as key transport interchanges. Information packs are being put together for all taxi and private hire drivers, which will cover the ORN, venues and other details about the Games, ensuring that drivers can operate effectively and make the most of the opportunities that the Games offer. I say to my noble friend Lady Doocey that the packs will be distributed in spring next year. More information will be going out but I hear what she says about the emergency services. We will make further inquiries to ensure that all that is in order and come back to her on that.
The amendment seeks to encourage the use of public transport by those with an Olympic identity and accreditation card. For most of the transport needs of the athletes, officials, media and marketing partners who form the Games family, transport by road along the Olympic route network, mostly in buses and coaches, will, as at previous Games, provide the most convenient and effective means of ensuring that they get reliably to where they need to be each and every time. We listened with great interest to the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in respect of the transport for the Olympic athletes and the Olympic Games family. We are, of course, encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible. For example, the media will use the Heathrow Express to travel between Heathrow, which is LOCOG’s official port of entry, and central London. Transport for London will be providing access to free public transport travel for all members of the Games family.
The Games will, of course, place unprecedented demands on our public transport system, despite the enhancements to capacity I have described in detail and the normal summer seasonal reduction in background demand that can be expected at this time of year, so it will be necessary to reduce non-Olympic demand at key hotspots at times of high Games demand to keep London moving. The latest surveys and forecasting enable those times and places to be identified and the necessary reductions to be specifically targeted. On the basis of the most recent surveys and forecasts, we now know—noble Lords have already indicated this—that we will need to reduce non-Olympic demand by approximately 30 per cent on average across a number of hotspots on both the road and public transport networks. Larger reductions will be needed on certain days at particular times at specific stations and lines. Further details on those hotspots will be published by TfL at the end of this month, but, just to be clear, we are not looking at a blanket reduction of 30 per cent in non-Olympic demand across the whole of London for the entire Games period.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked how we will achieve the public transport reductions and whether we were confident that the necessary reductions will be achieved. There is a rolling programme of tracking research used to estimate the level of reduction that may be achieved in 2012. This gathers information on public awareness, propensity to plan and intention to take action to change travel behaviour during the Games period. A whole host of research goes into trying to ensure that we have the best ideas of where the transport hotspots will be and how we can cope with the additional traffic. TfL has been working with businesses since November last year to encourage them to plan to reduce journeys where possible, and reroute, re-time or change the mode of essential journeys. TfL is already working directly with businesses responsible for more than half a million employees in transport hotspots. This will be supplemented next year by extensive public communications to commuters and the wider public.
Finally, the amendment also calls for proposals to promote public transport use by non-Olympic visitors and tourists. I am aware that behind this may be concerns in some quarters that the Olympic and Paralympic Games will deter non-Games tourists from visiting the UK. This has been indicated in tonight’s debate. The Government are committed to ensuring that the tourism industry maximises the economic benefits provided by the Games. Including new money that has recently been announced from the GREAT campaign, plus private sector support, VisitBritain will invest around £127 million in a new international marketing programme. Over the next four years it is expected to deliver 4.6 million extra visitors from overseas and £2.27 billion in extra visitor spend. We have also recently announced the 20.12 per cent discount initiative which will be launched next year by VisitEngland as part of a campaign to use the Games to boost domestic tourism.
Visit England’s campaign is supported by a £3 million investment from the Olympic budget and is expected to deliver 12,000 new jobs and £480 million in extra spend over three years. At this point, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, and her team on their success in achieving the World Athletics in 2017. If we get all the transport right for the Olympics, then 2017 will be a piece of cake.
I hope that has addressed the points that noble Lords have made in this debate. We hope that the non-Olympic visitors and tourists will of course be able to benefit from the significant enhancements to public transport provisions, and that the Olympic lanes will work as efficiently as intended to get the athletes and the Olympic family to and fro. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked where the previous reductions have been achieved, and we have looked to previous host cities on the reductions and on travel to get indications of travel demand. Sydney, Salt Lake City and Vancouver have all contributed to helping our plans for assessing the numbers likely to be travelling.
I have something here for the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on the emergency services. The Games consultation and engagement team is working with the emergency services to ensure that vehicles attending emergencies can move around the city safely and easily. There will be ongoing discussion about the other vehicles she mentioned, the ones that are not actively engaged on emergency services. That is all being debated and consulted on.
I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that we are well under way in delivering a comprehensive and detailed strategy to promote public transport for the Games while also effectively managing the pressures that will be placed on specific parts of that system. On that basis I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness to go back a little in her speech. I heard her say something about one-day travelcards being available to Games ticket holders. Can she confirm that?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Yes, there will be travelcards available to ticket holders and to those attending the Games.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
This is for London only, I assume.
I thank all who have spoken in this debate, particularly my noble friend Lady Ford and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Doocey, who shared their expertise in these matters. I am left with three quotes and a conclusion which I would like to cover before we resolve how to take this forward. When the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, was talking about modelling, she said that on certain occasions demand is going to exceed supply. That is picked up by the sense of the word hotspot which I assume covers much of the same issue. There is obviously going to be a problem at some point during the Games and we recognise that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, was worried that emergency service vehicles would be sitting in traffic jams for hours on end, and I hope that she found the Minister’s response helpful. If there are traffic jams, they will not be the only people sitting in them; it is also going to be Londoners and others who wish to go about their ordinary business, including visitors and businesses that may have time-sensitive deliveries to make—for instance newspapers. There is obviously a second concern in that.
The third concern—the one we are all beginning to push at—is that we are making it clear that these will be the world’s first public transport Games, while at the same time recognising that even our enhanced public transport system will not really be able to cope. We have a problem.
Our amendment was an attempt to try to take a little of the potential blame away and bring it back to Parliament. However, I think that it has not found much favour and therefore will not push it further at this stage.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
All spectators will receive a free all-zones travelcard for the day of their Games event ticket, so that will cover the London venues. A dedicated Games journey planner on the London 2012 website will enable ticket holders to plan and book their journeys well in advance of the Games. We are hoping that the all-zones travelcard will be an additional encouragement to the spectators to use public transport.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am grateful for that useful clarification. Let us paint the scenario. The Ministers are trapped in their cars, not in the Olympic lanes, but possibly hovering close to the Olympic network.
London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, in moving Amendment 3, I will also speak to Amendments 4 and 5 in this group. The amendments address a concern raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The 2006 Act provides for the making of advertising and trading regulations. Under the Act, all such regulations, including amending regulations, are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
The Bill amends the 2006 Act to provide that advertising and trading regulations other than the first set may instead be made via the negative resolution procedure. This is intended to enable the making of amending regulations if unforeseen events crop up late in the day, such as if it is necessary to move a Games event from one venue to another shortly before the event is due to take place. If the need to amend the regulations arose at this point, such as if a water main serving a venue burst a few days before that venue was scheduled to be used, it would be impracticable to amend the regulations via the lengthy affirmative resolution procedure.
Because the regulations are very detailed and specify precisely the places where, and periods during which, they will apply, it may be necessary to amend them if a venue or the Games schedule has to change. It is not possible, in the abstract, to describe all the incidents that might necessitate such a change, but I emphasise that we are not planning any such amendments. A lot of work has gone into identifying and preparing venues and the event schedule for the Games, and we intend the venues, the schedule, and the regulations that have already been published to remain as they are. A change will be necessary only if unforeseen circumstances such as the burst water main I mentioned occur.
The Delegated Powers Committee accepts the need to amend the 2006 Act to facilitate the amendment of the regulations in such circumstances. However, it is concerned that the extent of the procedural relaxation in the Bill goes further than is necessary. Accordingly, it has recommended that the Bill is amended to provide that the affirmative resolution procedure must be used unless the Minister considers that, by reason of urgency, it is necessary instead to use the negative procedure. As it was always the intention that the negative resolution procedure would be used only where there was an urgent need to do so, the Government are happy to accept the committee’s recommendation and to provide the additional clarification.
The effect of these amendments is that advertising and trading regulations will be made via the negative procedure only if the Minister considers that that is necessary by reason of urgency. In such a case, the regulations will confirm, on their face, that this is the Minister’s view.
In essence, what we mean by “urgency” is that, for reasons of time, it would be impracticable to use the affirmative procedure and it is necessary instead to use the negative procedure. That is likely to be because the amending regulations have to take effect quickly, before the earliest date that affirmative regulations could practicably be made. This would be the case, for example, where the incident necessitating the amendment occurs only a short time before the relevant Games event. Likewise, it would be the case if amending regulations had to be made when Parliament is not sitting. As noble Lords will know, affirmative regulations cannot be made when Parliament is in recess, whereas negative instruments can.
I hope that these amendments and the further explanation that I have set out today provide noble Lords with welcome assurance that the power to amend the regulations via the negative procedure will be used only when that is genuinely necessary. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these amendments. There is obviously sense in having flexibility within the legislation to deal with unforeseen events, and we fully understand why the Government have decided to take these powers. However, as was pointed out in the report of the Delegated Powers Committee, these powers are wide-ranging, and it is important that they be subject to appropriate scrutiny.
The recent Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report called for assurances that the provision to make these regulations via the negative resolution procedure would be exercised only when there was an urgent need to do so. The Minister reaffirmed that the intention is always to work within the set of advertising and trading regulations laid in Parliament on 10 October, which will be subject to the affirmative procedure. However, the problem with the approach being taken by the Government is that these present regulations are going to be made only in the deepest recess period, July to September 2012, so there is a Catch-22 situation. You can make negative regulations of the type described by the Minister when you cannot make regulations under the affirmative procedure, but because the Houses will be in Recess, neither House would be in a position to exercise its power under the negative resolution procedure in those circumstances. The net effect is to provide the Secretary of State with wide-ranging Henry VIII powers exercisable on his or her assertion that it is an emergency. When the Minister responds, will she enlighten us about why it was decided that the negative/affirmative procedure was appropriate?
It might have been easier to fess up and simply say that, on reflection, the Government take the view that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to have these powers and that some procedure, such as a full report, will occur once the Houses have resumed after the Games have finished. Clearly, we are where we are, so the question really is: what are the urgent situations that could give rise to the need to use this provision? I may be straining at a gnat here, but I have noticed in the documentation that we have been provided with that there are three different variations on what is defined as an urgent situation. The wording of the amendment is that the regulations would be used only if,
“the Secretary of State considers that by reason of urgency it is necessary that they be made”.
The Delegated Powers Committee slightly inflects that and changes the terms. It states that the powers would be needed only when there was an urgent need. The Minister suggested in correspondence, which was copied to several noble Lords, that the amending regulations would be brought forward only to provide flexibility in cases where exceptional circumstances, such as a burst water main, require a change of competition venue. I am not sure that a need for flexibility is by definition an urgency, but I think we understand the sense behind the points made in the correspondence. I do not think at this stage we wish further to oppose this amendment, but it would be helpful if the Minister would write to us with a few examples of where she thinks such a situation might occur so that we have them on record.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I would be very happy to do that because this is an area where perhaps a little more clarity could be due. As the noble Lord has indicated, we are introducing these measures at this stage as a matter of pragmatism.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank all noble Lords who took part in this useful and helpful debate. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Coe, for being present and for sharing his thoughts on this. We are all in a much better place as a result of the discussion. We know more about what the issues are. We support what has been done. There is no question of any destructive view on that. Like my noble friend Lady Billingham, we want to continue to say that, in order to build on what has been achieved and to make sure that these are the greatest Games ever.
There are three points that I would like to leave with the Committee. First, would it be possible at some point for LOCOG to get across—obviously it does not need to be said too widely—what I thought the noble Lord, Lord Coe, said, which was that, given the vast majority of people in the iceberg, as he put it, who come into our Games are going to be able to do so without any let or hindrance, there is not going to be an issue about that? These regulations are at heart back-stop regulations to be used only if there is suspicion. Somehow that has not come across. There has been a sense that somehow we are all under surveillance and are all somehow possibly complicit in some frightful game involving tickets. When you buy a ticket or get a ticket, it may well be covered in beautiful colours and have all sorts of ideograms and other things on it, but you do not really know whether it is the right one or not until you turn up, put it in and it goes through. There is that sense that you are always going to be caught. Can we somehow agree among ourselves, even if we cannot say it publicly, that that is not the main purpose here? The main purpose is to get the touts who are out to disrupt the Games for their own horrible and nefarious purposes. That would be helpful.
Secondly, as the Minister said, we need clarity on a number of things. I do not want to reopen the debate but, for example, on identity, her answer was very firm and clear: people who have tickets and are bringing themselves or a party will need to bring identity with them. The letter states that that identity must be in the form of a photo card, but the Minister said that it could be a credit card, possibly the credit card with which you bought the tickets. You are already giving us two versions. We must be clear about this: either it is a photo card or it is credit card, or we are very clear that it is both. To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, a credit card might well be the right answer because it ties you to the original purchase. If phone calls are going to be the way you begin checking whether those who are under suspicion are right, it would be helpful if some more explanation is given about that. I can imagine a scenario where my children set off on their own to the Games to watch the synchronised swimming, which are the only tickets we have, they arrive to find that somebody has already got in on false tickets, they are dragged off, and I am rung—
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am sorry to interrupt, but I understand from my noble friend Lord Coe that telephone numbers are already available for those who purchased tickets.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, my point—had I been able to make it—is this: what happens when the noble Lord, Lord Coe, rings me and says, “We have your three children here, and they have fake tickets”, but I do not have my mobile phone—I have dropped it in the bath or something like that—so all that I get is a message, and when I ring back I get through to some call centre which, in the nature of trying to internationalise the Games, might be situated in Bangalore? You get the point.
Let us just be clear about this, get the narrative right and communicate clearly so that we carry the public with us, which is a vitally important point, and bring everyone along with us. This is going to be fantastic, and we will definitely be there to make it so. However, following the testing, once we have been to the archery and we have the tickets—and the T-shirt, too—then we need to communicate again that the systems work, and that the testing is happening along with everything else. Then we will all be happy, and I will withdraw the amendment in order to facilitate that.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am not sure that I can entirely answer the noble Lord and I will have to come back to him on that specific point. Obviously, it will be part of the whole parcel of communication which will go to all the different people involved in ensuring that London keeps moving and that the Games operate as successfully and smoothly as we want.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank everyone who participated in this debate, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for her ability to spin across into Transport for London issues, which was very helpful, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, whose contribution brought the practicalities of London very much to the forefront.
I am left with three or four points that it might be worth sharing with the Committee. We are dealing with a road transport system in London that is already pretty fragile and anything that one does to it is bound to have a major impact. It used to be said that if you wanted to bring London to a standstill you simply had to put one man and a digger somewhere in Soho: it had such an effect in terms of road traffic that it could close the whole of the city, which may still be true. I know that attempts are going to be made to make sure that there are no road repairs during the period about which we are talking. But, even so, it is a fragile arrangement.
Given that it is fragile, the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, are quite worrying. I know that the Minister tried to give us some gloss on those figures. If the bid book was wrong and the figures were underestimated, what are the correct figures? Would it be possible—not in this debate—for her to write to the noble Baroness and me to give us a linkage back to the bid book, to what the figures should have been if they were wrong and to what the figures will be on the best possible estimates? I am intrigued by the idea that somehow there has to be a reduction of 30 per cent in current use. How will that be achieved? Are we saying that more measures than have currently been discussed will have to be brought out? Are we going to say to people that they will have to take rolling holidays? I can see some advantage in that. Again, I do not need a response today, but it would be useful to have some sense of how that will happen.
My worry is that we may have the best Games possible and that they will be incredibly successful, but that the price we will pay will be a significant dip in GDP, which we perhaps had not anticipated, because people are not able to get to work or they decide to take the line of least resistance and not go into work on the days when the Games are happening. I am being frivolous, but at the heart of this there are problems.
The points on which I am still a little concerned are that the river will be used only for events happening at Greenwich—it seems to me that the river could be utilised much better in terms of providing ancillary transport from a river stopping point, perhaps near Canary Wharf, to the Games, which would save all the central London movement—and the issue about black cabs. Again, I could not quite make out what was being said.
The ORN is a physical mark on a map and can be measured. It is said to be 109 miles in length. Clearly when it is not being used for Olympic purposes, it can be used for ordinary transport, but the feeling has come across, whether it is right or not, that black cabs will not be allowed to go on to the network at all, and that is what is causing the problem. If it is clear that they can, we are back to our old friend communication.
These are going to be brilliant Games, but we must get people on side. We must get them to support them. We need to start communicating better about the transport issues because they are definitely going to continue. The Minister gave us a lot of detail about the consultations going ahead, which was generally very comforting, but there is a difference between consultations about particular closures in particular places and general broad communication about what is happening. I still think that there is room for much more on the latter point, even though the former point will take much of the load. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Economy: Tourism
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend raises a very important issue. We are fully aware that tourism is a very competitive industry, so the UK must always ensure that it is not being outgunned on different fronts by other countries, that the unique assets in our countries, which tourists might want to visit, make it worth while and that the finances do not discourage people from coming here rather than going elsewhere. All these matters are currently under consideration to try to ensure that we make the most of people coming to our country and that they get a warm welcome here.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, tourism is clearly one of the most important potential growth sectors in the economy. Can the Minister explain what the Government have done to ameliorate the damage caused to the tourism industry by the riots last August?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, that is obviously a very concerning issue on all sorts of fronts, one of which is tourism. The pictures that went around the world were not such as would attract people to come to this country. We hope that more positive messages have gone out since then. The causes of the riots are obviously being looked at, tackled and addressed, but we hope that we will send out positive messages about the parts of the country which were not subjected to riots so that people are not deterred from coming to visit this country.
Live Music Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, given that this is the main point at issue, it is worth spending a few minutes on it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that in ideal circumstances midnight might have been a more appropriate time, as indeed was his original intention. Live music tends somehow to gain in character and quality as it moves towards the midnight hour. I do not think that many people would disagree with that, although, as I get a little older, I wonder whether I could survive as late as that.
In introducing the amendment, the noble Lord made it very clear where his sentiments lie and what problems the Government would have in accepting anything later than 11 pm. We have to have regard to the impact that any late activity has on localities and we should be respectful of that. Given that there seems to be some sort of agreement between the two sides—or, rather, between the two parties on the same side—that 11 o’clock should be the time that appears in the Bill, we would not object to it at this stage.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the Government’s position on the time at which exemptions for live music would no longer apply. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for the Keeling schedule, which certainly brought some light to some fairly obscure parts of the Bill.
The Government have previously indicated that they are supportive of the measures to liberalise the licensing of live music but that they would like to see some minor changes to the Bill. Apart from some technical changes outlined in amendments tabled by my noble friend, we asked him whether he would bring forward the time at which the exemptions ceased to have effect from midnight to 11 pm.
We have to acknowledge that there are concerns from residents’ groups and others about the impact of possible deregulation of licensing requirements for live music, particularly in relation to late-night noise, and that local authorities may be concerned about a possible increase in complaints at night. There are, of course, other interventions that can be used to tackle any problems of noise and disturbance, not least the continuing requirement for an alcohol licence in most venues. However, we have to recognise that 11 pm is generally accepted as the time at which it is not unreasonable to expect consideration for those who live near businesses and entertainment premises. That is why noise legislation already has special rules relating to the period from 11 pm to 7 am and why the Licensing Act makes special provision for takeaways and other late-night hot food premises to require a licence after 11 pm.
Those other protections might, in themselves, be a good reason why we could be more ambitious in relaxing the rules for live entertainment. However, the difficulty that the Government have is that previous consultation sought views on deregulation of small music events only up to 11 pm, and without a further test of public views the Government would be unable to support the Bill at this point if it retained the midnight cut-off. However, I should add in response to my noble friend that the Government are planning to consult shortly on wider reforms to regulated entertainment, including music licensed under the 2003 Act. This will include seeking views on deregulation after 11 pm.
However, for the moment, and given the concerns that some feel about later cut-offs and the fact that this has not been subject to consultation, we believe that it is better to adopt a more cautious approach. Therefore, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling relevant amendments, which, if agreed by the Committee, will enable the Government to offer their support for the Bill.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I congratulate my noble friend on successfully tabling the amendments he has outlined today and on bringing us a step closer to a more proportionate licensing system. These are important measures that could help struggling venues and aspiring performers, as well as enhancing the cultural offering in local communities. Once the amendments are in place I am pleased to confirm that the Government are happy to support the Live Music Bill.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I join the noble Baroness and add our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and to the Government for supporting the Bill. This will radically change the way in which live music can be performed across the country. It was not well dealt with in previous legislation, which we very much regret. This is the way forward and we are delighted to support it.