Lord Clement-Jones
“( ) In section 177 of the Licensing Act 2003 (dancing and live music in certain small premises)—
(a) in subsections (1) and (2), for “the provision of music entertainment” in each place substitute “dancing”,(b) in subsection (2) omit—(i) paragraph (b) and “and” immediately before it, and(ii) in the words following paragraph (b), the words “, in relation to the provision of that entertainment,”,(c) omit subsections (3) and (4),(d) in subsection (8)—(i) for “music entertainment” substitute “dancing” and in paragraph (a) of that definition omit “(e) or”, and(ii) omit paragraph (b) of that definition and “or” immediately before it, and(e) in the heading omit “and live music”.( ) After that section insert—”
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 2. From the outset, in dealing with all these amendments, I want to assure your Lordships that with the exception of the third group, all the amendments are of a technical and drafting nature. The essence of the Bill—to deregulate the performance of live music and to provide for safeguards on a subsequent review if problems are created by the performance of live music—remains fully intact. I shall therefore be as brief as possible, but consistent with the need to explain the technical nature of some of the amendments. I want to acknowledge not only the assistance of my advisers in improving the Bill but that of DCMS officials who have been particularly helpful in helping me to draw up these amendments.
Section 177 of the Licensing Act 2003 at present relates to live music and dancing in small premises. However, the purpose of the Bill, as stated in the Long Title, is to deal only with live music. In fact, a later government consultation on, I hope, other aspects of entertainment is coming down the track. These amendments ensure that dancing is neither positively nor negatively affected by the changes that the Bill makes. To do this, Amendment 1 amends existing Section 177 so that it deals only with dancing. Amendment 2 creates a new Section 177A for live music. I suppose that we can now say that the Bill is not all-singing and all-dancing. Obviously, I hope that in due course the Government will, through their entertainment consultation later this year, say what can be done to deregulate dancing in small venues. I beg to move.
Lord Skelmersdale
I am not sure whether anyone else among your Lordships is as confused as I am. Although I well understand that,
“dancing and live music in certain small premises”,
is a very wide term, the words in the Bill and in Amendment 1 seem to be so restrictive that they would not include singing, which I would have thought was certainly a part of live music.
Lord Clement-Jones
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for that intervention. I can certainly say that singing is covered as part of entertainment in the circumstances. There is no question about that. Through the amendments, one is simply restricting the Bill from impacting on the dancing aspects of licensing.
Lord Colwyn
Does that include spontaneous dancing—where dancing was not intended, but the style of music changed the attitude?
Lord Clement-Jones
Dancing is often spontaneous. I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, engages in spontaneous dancing on frequent occasions, perhaps even when he is playing a musical instrument at the same time. However, technically speaking dancing in those venues, in licensed premises, requires a licence. The Bill is not designed to impact on the existing law. Future consultation may suggest that we can deregulate that—I firmly hope that we can, especially in small venues—so that the noble Lord will be freer to stand up and spontaneously dance in future, but that is not the intention behind the Bill.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I do not want to engage in the question of whether we will spontaneously join in any activity this morning, because it is still early, but I reassure the House that we support the amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
In moving Amendment 3, I shall also speak to the other amendments in the group, which I shall reference separately as we go along.
On Amendments 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 18, proposed Section 177 contained in Clause 1 refers at various places to “music entertainment” or “live music entertainment”. It is clear from the Bill and the definition of “music entertainment” in subsection (5) that all those references relate to live music. For the sake of simplicity, and to improve the drafting, the amendments ensure that the term “live music” is used throughout the provisions.
Moving to Amendments 4 and 6, in proposed Section 177(5) contained in Clause 1, there is a defined term, “supply of alcohol”. However, elsewhere in Section 177, the Bill does not use the phrase “supply of alcohol” but instead uses “supply alcohol” or “supplying alcohol”. The defined term ought to be used consistently throughout. Proposed Section 177(1)(a) also alters the wording about the circumstances in which provisions apply from being when the premises are,
“open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises”,
to when the premises are,
“supplying alcohol for consumption on the premises”.
The wording in the Bill, if applied literally, could mean that the premises would have to be supplying alcohol the whole time that the music entertainment was taking place. That is a somewhat surreal concept. It would be absurd if the requirement was that at least one person was actually being served alcohol at the bar, rather than the premises simply being open for the purposes of supplying alcohol. Those amendments ensure that the defined term “supply of alcohol” is used uniformly within the drafting. Amendment 6 also addresses that potential absurdity.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Again, I do not want to delay the House. I should have said the first time I spoke that much of what has just been said will have been completely incomprehensible—indeed, it probably still is—unless you have access to a Keeling schedule, which puts all the word changes proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in the context of the Bill as it would be if amended. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for providing that for us, because it makes our life that much easier. With that, I support the amendments.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
I beg to move Amendment 9 and shall speak to Amendments 30 and 36. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his remarks on the previous grouping. The Keeling schedule is available for your Lordships if you wish to see how all the amendments would alter the Bill; I very much hope that you will avail yourselves of it. Of course, it will be reprinted after these amendments have been made so that, on Report, it will be much clearer what will be the total import of the Bill. I recognise that some of the technical amendments create some confusion in how they impact on the Bill and on the original Licensing Act 2003.
There is no doubt that this particular set of amendments is not technical but is indeed a matter of policy. The amendments move the time at which exemptions under the Bill cease to apply from midnight to 11 pm. I recognise that many low-risk performances may continue a little later than 11 pm—in particular, acoustic events, which pose no threat of noise nuisance—but I understand that the Government’s position is that this issue has not yet been fully tested in public consultations and that therefore it would be difficult for them to offer support at this point. Therefore, in order to make sure that the general provisions of the Bill go through, I am content to have tabled these amendments to ensure government support. However, I very much hope that the Minister will be able to say a few words about the Government’s position and confirm that there will be consultation on matters such as this in their entertainment consultation, which we are advised will take place later this year, and that further scope for exemptions will be consulted over. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, given that this is the main point at issue, it is worth spending a few minutes on it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that in ideal circumstances midnight might have been a more appropriate time, as indeed was his original intention. Live music tends somehow to gain in character and quality as it moves towards the midnight hour. I do not think that many people would disagree with that, although, as I get a little older, I wonder whether I could survive as late as that.
In introducing the amendment, the noble Lord made it very clear where his sentiments lie and what problems the Government would have in accepting anything later than 11 pm. We have to have regard to the impact that any late activity has on localities and we should be respectful of that. Given that there seems to be some sort of agreement between the two sides—or, rather, between the two parties on the same side—that 11 o’clock should be the time that appears in the Bill, we would not object to it at this stage.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the Government’s position on the time at which exemptions for live music would no longer apply. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for the Keeling schedule, which certainly brought some light to some fairly obscure parts of the Bill.
The Government have previously indicated that they are supportive of the measures to liberalise the licensing of live music but that they would like to see some minor changes to the Bill. Apart from some technical changes outlined in amendments tabled by my noble friend, we asked him whether he would bring forward the time at which the exemptions ceased to have effect from midnight to 11 pm.
We have to acknowledge that there are concerns from residents’ groups and others about the impact of possible deregulation of licensing requirements for live music, particularly in relation to late-night noise, and that local authorities may be concerned about a possible increase in complaints at night. There are, of course, other interventions that can be used to tackle any problems of noise and disturbance, not least the continuing requirement for an alcohol licence in most venues. However, we have to recognise that 11 pm is generally accepted as the time at which it is not unreasonable to expect consideration for those who live near businesses and entertainment premises. That is why noise legislation already has special rules relating to the period from 11 pm to 7 am and why the Licensing Act makes special provision for takeaways and other late-night hot food premises to require a licence after 11 pm.
Those other protections might, in themselves, be a good reason why we could be more ambitious in relaxing the rules for live entertainment. However, the difficulty that the Government have is that previous consultation sought views on deregulation of small music events only up to 11 pm, and without a further test of public views the Government would be unable to support the Bill at this point if it retained the midnight cut-off. However, I should add in response to my noble friend that the Government are planning to consult shortly on wider reforms to regulated entertainment, including music licensed under the 2003 Act. This will include seeking views on deregulation after 11 pm.
However, for the moment, and given the concerns that some feel about later cut-offs and the fact that this has not been subject to consultation, we believe that it is better to adopt a more cautious approach. Therefore, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling relevant amendments, which, if agreed by the Committee, will enable the Government to offer their support for the Bill.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his extremely useful remarks. I also thank the Minister very much for her explanation of the Government’s position. I think that that is completely understood. Obviously I hope that we will be able to go further than we do in the Bill by extending the time to midnight after wider consultation. However, I understand the Government’s desire to have that wider consultation and, in the mean time, I am grateful to the Minister for giving us the background to their view.
Lord Colwyn
My Lords, the Minister should know that the licensee does not always have control over the finishing time. In London hotels, for example, the electricity can be turned off and the event will finish dead on time. However, it is up to the musicians when the party finishes, and I would hate a licensee to get into trouble if it carried on because the musicians continued playing.
Lord Clement-Jones
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, for that intervention. With him, I am sure that the party never stops. I very much hope that there will be an understanding by musicians of the licensee’s position in those circumstances, although there obviously has to be some leeway and I hope that the lack of a licence is used responsibly in future. It is very much hoped that those who take advantage of the exemptions in the Bill do so in a responsible way which does not cause nuisance.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, under Section 172 of the 2003 Act, the Secretary of State may make an order providing for the relaxation of opening hours to mark an occasion of exceptional international, national or local significance. Such an order was made in respect of the recent royal wedding and I hope that there will be many more to come.
The current Section 177 of the Act, so far as it relates to premises licensed to supply alcohol for consumption on the premises, provides that conditions relating to live music do not have effect at any time when the premises are open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises. Therefore, with regard to the licensing hours extension in respect of the royal wedding, the effect was that the disapplication of conditions relating to music would have been extended because Section 177(2) is linked to the time at which the premises are open for the supply of alcohol.
However, new Section 177(1) and (2) contained in the Live Music Bill provide that, so far as alcohol-licensed premises are concerned, conditions relating to live music will not have effect only if the music takes place between 8 am and midnight, or 11 pm as a result of other amendments. Although Section 172 of the 2003 Act allows for the relaxation of licensing hours for special occasions, as drafted the Bill would not allow the disapplication of conditions on live music to run in tandem with any licensing hours extension.
Amendment 10 allows the disapplication of conditions relating to live music to apply where extended licensing hours are granted as a result of a licensing hours order. In so doing, it preserves the benefit afforded to alcohol-licensed premises under the existing Section 177. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we support the amendment. It makes sense in terms of how current licensing operations work and I think that it would add to the general jollity.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 14, 15, 16, 24, 33 and 37. In the Bill, as presently drafted, there is a problem with the interaction between proposed Section 177 and proposed paragraphs 12A and 12C of Schedule 1. Paragraph 12A applies only to premises which are licensed for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises and paragraph 12C engages Section 177 only where the premises are licensed to supply alcohol. Given that where paragraphs 12A or 12C apply a performance of live music is not a licensable activity, there would be no need, and perhaps no power, for conditions to be included on a licence relating to the provision of live music.
On a review of a premises licence under Section 52, a licensing authority may, among other things, modify the conditions of a licence or exclude a licensable activity from the scope of the licence. However, the effect of the proposed Section 177(4) may be that, on a review, provision of live music becomes licensable, so effectively the licence would have to be amended to include a new licensable activity. A concern has been raised that Section 52 does not provide the necessary power to do that. There is also a conceptual difficulty with the proposition that whether or not an activity is licensable depends on the outcome of a review of the licence itself.
These amendments, taken together, resolve these drafting difficulties. They preserve the intent of the Bill that there should be an exemption from licensing for small audiences but enable a licensing authority to impose new conditions relating to live music at a review of a licence or club premises certificate as if the music were licensed, or to re-activate conditions about live music which would not otherwise have effect as a result of Section 177A(2). Again, I apologise for the highly technical nature of that explanation. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones
“(3A) On a review of a premises licence or club premises certificate a licensing authority may (without prejudice to any other steps available to it under this Act) add a condition relating to live music as if—
(a) the live music were regulated entertainment, and(b) the licence or certificate licensed the live music.”
Lord Clement-Jones
(a) included in a premises licence by virtue of section 18(2)(a) or (3)(b), 35(3)(b), 52(3) or 167(5)(b),(b) included in a club premises certificate by virtue of section 72(2)(a) or (3)(b), 85(3)(b) or 88(3),(c) added to a premises licence by virtue of its inclusion in an application to vary the licence in accordance with section 34 or 41A which is granted under section 35(2) or 41B(3) (as the case may be), or(d) added to a club premises certificate by virtue of its inclusion in an application to vary the certificate in accordance with section 84 or 86A which is granted under section 85(2) or 86B(3) (as the case may be);”
Lord Clement-Jones
In proposed Section 177(5), the Bill sets out a list of conditions which, if they relate to live music, do not have effect in respect of premises with small audiences unless and until there is a licence review bringing them into effect. However, the proposed definition of condition, while referring to various sections by which conditions can be imposed, uses the phrase,
“including, but not limited to”.
The purpose of the amendment is explicitly to include all the provisions in the Licensing Act 2003 by which conditions can be added or imposed which are intended to fall within the operation of Section 177A and therefore remove the words,
“including, but not limited to”,
which are too vague.
The amendment also removes references in proposed Section 177(5) to conditions imposed under Sections 53B and 53C of the 2003 Act. These were inserted in the 2003 Act by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 and relate to conditions that may be imposed on a summary review, or pending such review, in respect of premises which are licensed to sell alcohol and which are associated with serious crime or serious disorder. Given the seriousness of the circumstances that are likely to lead to a review under these provisions, the condition should definitely be removed from the list of conditions not having effect.
The amendment also includes reference to conditions added to a premises licence or a club premises certificate as a result of inclusion in an application to vary such licence or certificate. There is no reason why conditions arising in this way should be treated any differently from those imposed by a licensing authority on the grant of a licence. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
“( ) In paragraph 8 omit “or entertainment facilities”.”
“( ) In paragraph 11—
(a) omit “or entertainment facilities”, and(b) omit sub-paragraph (b).”
“( ) In paragraph 11A omit sub-paragraph (4).”
Lord Clement-Jones
(a) the requirements of section 177A(1)(a) to (c) are satisfied, and(b) conditions have not been included in the licence or certificate by virtue of section 177A(3) or (3A).””
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
I shall speak also to Amendment 28. Takeaways and cafés serving late night refreshment must be licensed under the 2003 Act because provision of late night refreshment—refreshment between 11 pm and 5 am—is a licensable activity under the Act. On the present wording of the proposed paragraph 12B of Schedule 1, such premises would not be able to benefit from the workplace exemption because they are licensed under the 2003 Act, even though there is no link between the live music and the late night refreshment.
This was an unintended consequence of the drafting of paragraph 12B. Cafés, takeaways and similar establishments should be able to take advantage of the workplace exemption so as to be able to put on live music without a licence between 8 am and 11 pm. To achieve this aim, Amendment 28 adds reference to premises being licenced for late night refreshment into the proposed paragraph 12B, and Amendment 25 makes a consequential amendment to the title of that paragraph. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I congratulate my noble friend on successfully tabling the amendments he has outlined today and on bringing us a step closer to a more proportionate licensing system. These are important measures that could help struggling venues and aspiring performers, as well as enhancing the cultural offering in local communities. Once the amendments are in place I am pleased to confirm that the Government are happy to support the Live Music Bill.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I join the noble Baroness and add our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and to the Government for supporting the Bill. This will radically change the way in which live music can be performed across the country. It was not well dealt with in previous legislation, which we very much regret. This is the way forward and we are delighted to support it.
Lord Clement-Jones
I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, very much for their bipartisan support on this legislation. As I said earlier, I am delighted to have had the support of DCMS officials in improving the Bill technically. I very much hope that we will be able to move to Report and Third Reading after the Summer Recess with dispatch. There are literally thousands of musicians and performers up and down the country who will be really grateful to see this legislation go through. It will give great encouragement to young musicians in all kinds of different venues, many of which we probably cannot conceive of at the moment. They will be able to take advantage of these provisions. I am extremely grateful. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones