Live Music Bill [HL]

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Friday 15th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

Dancing is often spontaneous. I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, engages in spontaneous dancing on frequent occasions, perhaps even when he is playing a musical instrument at the same time. However, technically speaking dancing in those venues, in licensed premises, requires a licence. The Bill is not designed to impact on the existing law. Future consultation may suggest that we can deregulate that—I firmly hope that we can, especially in small venues—so that the noble Lord will be freer to stand up and spontaneously dance in future, but that is not the intention behind the Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I do not want to engage in the question of whether we will spontaneously join in any activity this morning, because it is still early, but I reassure the House that we support the amendment.

Amendment 1 agreed.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Again, I do not want to delay the House. I should have said the first time I spoke that much of what has just been said will have been completely incomprehensible—indeed, it probably still is—unless you have access to a Keeling schedule, which puts all the word changes proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in the context of the Bill as it would be if amended. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for providing that for us, because it makes our life that much easier. With that, I support the amendments.

Amendment 3 agreed.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, given that this is the main point at issue, it is worth spending a few minutes on it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that in ideal circumstances midnight might have been a more appropriate time, as indeed was his original intention. Live music tends somehow to gain in character and quality as it moves towards the midnight hour. I do not think that many people would disagree with that, although, as I get a little older, I wonder whether I could survive as late as that.

In introducing the amendment, the noble Lord made it very clear where his sentiments lie and what problems the Government would have in accepting anything later than 11 pm. We have to have regard to the impact that any late activity has on localities and we should be respectful of that. Given that there seems to be some sort of agreement between the two sides—or, rather, between the two parties on the same side—that 11 o’clock should be the time that appears in the Bill, we would not object to it at this stage.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the Government’s position on the time at which exemptions for live music would no longer apply. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for the Keeling schedule, which certainly brought some light to some fairly obscure parts of the Bill.

The Government have previously indicated that they are supportive of the measures to liberalise the licensing of live music but that they would like to see some minor changes to the Bill. Apart from some technical changes outlined in amendments tabled by my noble friend, we asked him whether he would bring forward the time at which the exemptions ceased to have effect from midnight to 11 pm.

We have to acknowledge that there are concerns from residents’ groups and others about the impact of possible deregulation of licensing requirements for live music, particularly in relation to late-night noise, and that local authorities may be concerned about a possible increase in complaints at night. There are, of course, other interventions that can be used to tackle any problems of noise and disturbance, not least the continuing requirement for an alcohol licence in most venues. However, we have to recognise that 11 pm is generally accepted as the time at which it is not unreasonable to expect consideration for those who live near businesses and entertainment premises. That is why noise legislation already has special rules relating to the period from 11 pm to 7 am and why the Licensing Act makes special provision for takeaways and other late-night hot food premises to require a licence after 11 pm.

Those other protections might, in themselves, be a good reason why we could be more ambitious in relaxing the rules for live entertainment. However, the difficulty that the Government have is that previous consultation sought views on deregulation of small music events only up to 11 pm, and without a further test of public views the Government would be unable to support the Bill at this point if it retained the midnight cut-off. However, I should add in response to my noble friend that the Government are planning to consult shortly on wider reforms to regulated entertainment, including music licensed under the 2003 Act. This will include seeking views on deregulation after 11 pm.

However, for the moment, and given the concerns that some feel about later cut-offs and the fact that this has not been subject to consultation, we believe that it is better to adopt a more cautious approach. Therefore, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling relevant amendments, which, if agreed by the Committee, will enable the Government to offer their support for the Bill.

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[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, under Section 172 of the 2003 Act, the Secretary of State may make an order providing for the relaxation of opening hours to mark an occasion of exceptional international, national or local significance. Such an order was made in respect of the recent royal wedding and I hope that there will be many more to come.

The current Section 177 of the Act, so far as it relates to premises licensed to supply alcohol for consumption on the premises, provides that conditions relating to live music do not have effect at any time when the premises are open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises. Therefore, with regard to the licensing hours extension in respect of the royal wedding, the effect was that the disapplication of conditions relating to music would have been extended because Section 177(2) is linked to the time at which the premises are open for the supply of alcohol.

However, new Section 177(1) and (2) contained in the Live Music Bill provide that, so far as alcohol-licensed premises are concerned, conditions relating to live music will not have effect only if the music takes place between 8 am and midnight, or 11 pm as a result of other amendments. Although Section 172 of the 2003 Act allows for the relaxation of licensing hours for special occasions, as drafted the Bill would not allow the disapplication of conditions on live music to run in tandem with any licensing hours extension.

Amendment 10 allows the disapplication of conditions relating to live music to apply where extended licensing hours are granted as a result of a licensing hours order. In so doing, it preserves the benefit afforded to alcohol-licensed premises under the existing Section 177. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we support the amendment. It makes sense in terms of how current licensing operations work and I think that it would add to the general jollity.

Amendment 10 agreed.

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[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I congratulate my noble friend on successfully tabling the amendments he has outlined today and on bringing us a step closer to a more proportionate licensing system. These are important measures that could help struggling venues and aspiring performers, as well as enhancing the cultural offering in local communities. Once the amendments are in place I am pleased to confirm that the Government are happy to support the Live Music Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I join the noble Baroness and add our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and to the Government for supporting the Bill. This will radically change the way in which live music can be performed across the country. It was not well dealt with in previous legislation, which we very much regret. This is the way forward and we are delighted to support it.