Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Baroness Fox of Buckley Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, we have heard some important and powerful speeches. I broadly support all the amendments in this group. There is concern outside the House around these eligibility verification notices—people are genuinely worried about them and they are, I think, right to be—but I want to ask the Minister something directly. This Bill has been dubbed “the bank spying powers Bill”. There has been a lot of publicity about it. I know that campaigns such as Big Brother Watch have been gathering up signatures. There was an article in the newspapers today about it. I have heard Ministers, in debates, describe those kinds of descriptions as over-the-top hyperbole and say that it is absolutely ridiculous to talk in this way.

I think that paranoia is inevitable when things are not accountable or clear. I just want to say that I genuinely do not understand how the highly complex monitoring that this Bill demands, in order to provide information to the DWP, can happen unless it uses the processing of the data of all bank accounts. If you ask a bank to provide information on a group of people, the only way it can find out who that group of people is is algorithmically—I will come back to this—which means looking at the data of all bank accounts. That is one of the reasons why the idea of spying powers is raised. Have I got that wrong? Can the Minister clarify whether that is hyperbole and what the reality is? That would be especially helpful before I speak to my amendments on algorithms so that I do not make a mess of what I say.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group, but I want to make a brief comment on Amendment 89. It is inappropriate for the Government to have powers to extend to and include other benefits, because each benefit may well have a different dynamic as to whether there is a possibility of fraud. If you look at the DWP statistics, you will see that some of the other benefits have a very low incidence of fraud; it is universal credit that is out of line, compared to the rest. I do not think that the Government should be allowed powers to add to those three benefits. That would be highly draconian. If the present Government, or a future one, feel that there is a need, they should bring primary legislation. At that time, we can also take the opportunity to smooth the rough edges of this Bill, which might have become visible by then.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not a flow chart gal, but if anyone is capable of turning this into a useful flow chart, I shall have a look into it.

I fully accept, being an observant person, that not everybody in the Committee agrees with these measures. It is clear that they can make a difference to tackling fraud and error. We think that they are proportionate, but I accept that some Members do not think that, and that is obviously completely legitimate. We simply take a different view.

In the next few groups of amendments, we get to look at different aspects of how that would work, but it is the Government’s view that the scale of fraud is such that it needs to be tackled. If there were other, simpler ways in which to do it, we would have used them by now. This is a source of data that will help us to tackle fraud and error in overpayments, which we do not have at the moment. We do not see any other suitable ways in which to do it, so we think that it is proportionate. We have wrapped it around in safeguards as much as possible.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

The Minister has been very helpful. There are obviously disagreements philosophically, but what is confusing is that the financial service representatives have suggested that this is a trawling exercise—the quote given was of a “fishing exercise”. The Minister has stressed, “Don’t worry: when we go to the banks and ask for this information, it is suspicionless. We are not treating people as though they have done anything wrong; we are simply finding out”. That is a huge admission that the state—the Government—is going to the banks and demanding that they provide information for no other reason than that these people are on benefits.

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[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Amendment 83 is a probing amendment. I want to know more about the Government’s thinking on this. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, indicated, this is sparked by the comments of UK Finance, which represents, broadly speaking, those who will have to comply with this legislation, interrogate customers’ bank accounts and provide the DWP with information, so its views are very germane. It submitted a briefing for Second Reading, and a number of its points still stand, except to the extent that there has been any engagement between the DWP and UK Finance since Second Reading. I would be interested if the Minister could brief the Committee.

It is still, however, relevant to mention my points. I will focus on one in particular, as my amendment does. UK Finance raised a range of concerns that need to be taken seriously. I will outline them, just to put this into context. It is concerned about the potential conflict with its duties to deal with financial crime. It regarded this as a diversion from its capacity to deal with economic crime, and it was concerned that there were insufficient safeguards for bulk data access. I would be interested if the Minister could address those issues, either now or in correspondence.

My amendment focuses on the other point that it raised. It said:

“Risks of financial harm: Tensions between the Bill and firms’ existing obligations under the FCA’s Consumer Duty and Vulnerability Guidance could result in harm to vulnerable consumers. Bad actors learn workarounds quickly, so the powers may end up impacting most acutely people inadvertently making—or subject to—errors”.


That is a massive criticism of the Bill’s provisions, and it is important that it should be addressed explicitly, either in correspondence or in reply to this debate. I want to paraphrase in very broad terms the attitude of UK Finance towards the Bill. The truth—although it would not say it in quite these terms—is that it does not like it. It wishes that it was not here because of the pressure that it would place on it in all sorts of ways. That is outlined in its briefing.

I will address more directly the issue of financial harm to vulnerable customers. The Government need to say extensively and explicitly how they expect financial institutions to reconcile their undoubted duty of care towards their customers and their obligations under the Bill. To put this into context, the Child Poverty Action Group says that

“the eligibility verification measure would mean people face more suspicionless surveillance and intrusion into their privacy simply by virtue of being benefit recipients. We believe it is fundamentally unfair and potentially unlawful to subject these families to surveillance that the rest of the population does not face, simply because they are on a low income”.

I already quoted the concerns of Helena Wood of CIFAS. There is no doubt that the provisions of the Bill will be of massive concern to individuals, and that should be a major issue in how the Government implement the Bill—I have made plain my objections in principle—and how it will be handled in relation to vulnerable customers.

I have an amendment—let us hope we get to it on Wednesday—about the affordability assessment. Having an affordability assessment is not my idea; it is in the Government’s briefing note, but they do not explain what they mean by it. We will have a debate on Monday about the nature of that affordability assessment. But that in itself will put pressure on customers. Just being there, it will create pressure, particularly for people struggling with poverty and who have problems with their mental health.

It is essential that the affordability assessment will be able to understand the individual circumstances, but the process of implementing that assessment will in itself create harm for the consumer. I cannot see an easy way through on this, but the Government need to address the issue and tell us what they will do to ensure that this conflict is avoided.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, there was extensive conversation about the role of banks in the debate on a previous day in Committee, and I probably got carried away with my own hyperbole when I said that they were being coerced into being involved, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, corrected me. However, I think we can say that they are compelled to be involved and that financial penalties, which will become increasingly punitive, will be levied if they do not do as the Government request. If they get those penalties, the cost might not be an issue but there would certainly be reputational damage. We need to have some context here and recognise that the banks are not queuing up to do this. That is an important point, which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, has made. There is a reluctance about some of the things that are happening with the Bill, which I think the Government can admit to.

In all the literature they have produced and in conversations we have had so far, the Government have reassured those of us who are worried about privacy. We are constantly being reassured that there are limitations on the type of data the banks will share. On the other hand, the way in which the Government are dealing with that is by saying that the banks will be fined—there will be a penalty—if they overshare or if they provide inaccurate information, so I fear that this penalty will, again, have the impact of pushing the blame or responsibility on to banks for any errors.

That makes me nervous, because it is not clear to me how they will not see anyone on benefits as just a pain in the neck for them, since they will now have to go through the exercise of checking, which they are being compelled to do or they will be fined or get into trouble, and if they get the information wrong or hand over the wrong information, they can be fined again. Inevitably—this is why I am interested in these amendments—the banks will associate these eligibility verification notices and the work being asked of them for those on benefits, and they will view such people as creating more work and more jeopardy.

I also think the banks are being held responsible for things they should not necessarily be responsible for. I would be interested to know how the Minister feels, because I think it is a reasonable query at this point to ask, “Isn’t there a problem with private banks being asked to be government inspectors?” I think it was one of the MPs who said that the purpose of banks is not to act as an arm of the state. How should private banks respond to the fact that the state is asking them to do a huge amount more in relation to this clamp-down on DWP welfare fraud? It seems to me that, ultimately, we are asking the banks to do what the Government should be doing, and the banks will get the blame if things go wrong. They are the ones who will be doing the surveillance, no matter which way we look at it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the spirit and substance of these amendments, which would collectively strengthen the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill by ensuring that our approach to tackling fraud is not only effective but fair and—that word again—proportionate.

Amendment 81 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, rightly probes how the Secretary of State will prevent undue costs being imposed on banks and seeks to clarify the mechanisms for cost recovery. This, I believe, is an essential safeguard, ensuring that our financial sector partners are not overburdened by compliance costs, which could ultimately impact customers and the wider economy.

Similarly, Amendment 91, which calls for an independent review of the eligibility verification powers with a focus on the proportionality—that word again—of costs incurred by both the department and banks, is a welcome step towards transparency and accountability in the implementation of these new powers.

I am particularly supportive of Amendment 83, which would place the duty of care that financial services providers owe to their customers at the forefront, ensuring that data sharing with the DWP does not override these fundamental responsibilities. This is a crucial point. While we must be resolute in our effort to combat fraud—on which I am sure we all agree—we must not do so at the expense of the trust and the rights of individuals. It is a very fine line to draw.

Amendment 89C from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, would remove the risk that the mere existence of an eligibility indicator could trigger unnecessary action against account holders, thereby preventing unintended harm to individuals.

Taken together, these amendments would ensure that the Bill’s powers are exercised with restraint and with full regard to the interests of both institutions and individuals. We must not let it trigger unnecessary actions against account holders under the Proceeds of Crime Act. I support these amendments in their entirety.

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Moved by

[Baroness Fox of Buckley]

82: Schedule 3, page 79, line 22, at end insert—
“(4) The Secretary of State must publish the eligibility indicators.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to make public the eligibility indicators against which the banks are required to check their customers’ accounts.

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, my Amendments 82 and 88 attempt to bring much-needed transparency and clarity to how and why banks are being asked to check their customers’ bank accounts via EVMs. I also support Amendment 89ZA by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux.

Amendment 82 would require the Secretary of State to make eligibility indicators publicly available. As noble Lords will have gathered by now, I am opposed to eligibility verification notices in general and in principle. However, if they are to remain in the legislation, we need to maximise the transparency around them to guard against overreach. Amendment would 88 requires codes of practice to

“to include scrutiny provisions about the algorithms used by banks and the effectiveness of the eligibility verification measure”

in this clause.

At present, there is insufficient oversight in the Bill. We know that algorithms are central to the Bill. That is in line with the Government’s commitment to turbocharge data analytics and AI into public services in general and fraud risk detection in particular. Under this Bill, thousands of decisions regarding the collection and review of the private financial information of people receiving benefits will be—de facto at least—automated. That is a high-risk way to facilitate making decisions; especially those of a sensitive nature. Yet there is no other way for banks, building societies and so on to conduct the benefits eligibility checks that the Bill compels them to do without an algorithmic system—we have already touched on that—but the Bill does not include the specific eligibility search criteria of the algorithm involved. These amendments seek to address this lack of oversight.

The Explanatory Notes offer examples of search criteria, such as capital holdings or the legal limits of stays abroad, but there are no provisions to limit the criteria or provide transparency on them. That lack of transparency makes me question whether the Government are using the most appropriate mechanisms for their ends here, given the complexity of benefits eligibility per se, individuals varied circumstances and the sheer scale of the population’s financial accounts, joint accounts and so on.

It is unclear, and certainly no evidence has yet been provided that I am convinced by, why the Government think that banks are better placed than the DWP to conduct these complex assessments, especially when it involves outsourcing unconsented automated surveillance to third parties such as banks. These are all things that we have already discussed, so what I am specifically looking at here are the difficulties in relation to what we are asking banks to do.

There is no information in the Bill specifying who is responsible for supplying the algorithms required for this surveillance. Can the Minister clarify whether the DWP will provide third-party organisations such as banks with its existing search methodology? Will third parties be responsible for developing and deploying their own? I can understand that this might be being worked on. I have gathered from some of the things that the Minister has already mentioned that these technical issues might still be being resolved. However, it is not clear in the Bill who or what will decide on the algorithms, and there will be no accountability in relation to what we ask those algorithms to do.

In both the cases that I have given, we need to be able to probe how the powers will be put into practice. Can the Minister tell us how much testing has been done on the systems the banks will use? If it has not been done so far, when will we have it?

I do not understand why the Bill does not have provisions for quality assurance checks or a periodic review of these new automated systems. Without such quality checks, it seems inevitable that inaccurate information will be flagged and mistakes will occur, at great human cost. We heard similar concerns from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, today. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, referenced the Netherlands’ child tax credit scandal, which led to, for example, more than a thousand children being taken into foster care. That was because of algorithmic problems and a particular use of algorithms, with precisely the same ends of tackling fraud. Surely the Minister can see that the constant scanning of millions of accounts in relation to often complex queries and claims will make false positive matches for fraud highly likely.

I was trying to listen to what the Minister said earlier about how no decisions will be taken. Maybe we can clarify all that finally here, in terms of my concerns. I am worried that, as a result, a significant number of false positives will lead to account holders’ personal details being wrongly flagged up to the Government for further investigation, which in turn may incur further privacy intrusion—let alone penalties.

There have been problematic previous schemes that we should learn the lessons from. Take for example financial institutions’ suspicious activity reports, or SARs, which are used to combat money laundering—a laudable aim. But these SARs already have problems. A 2017 study of a sample of the largest banks found that, of approximately 16 million reviewed, 640,000 SARs were filed, yet only 4% of them resulted in law enforcement involvement.

Then there is a DWP pilot: the housing benefit accuracy award initiative, which was used to produce a risk score for housing benefit claimants that was then used as the basis for review of housing benefits by local councils. The algorithm flagged approximately 400,000 cases a year, identifying most of them as high-risk cases. As a consequence, councils were required to conduct file case reviews of those flagged, which involved invasive checks of bank statements, payslips, rent, et cetera. I know someone who was a victim of this and can testify to how awful that experience was. Benefits were suspended where claimants were not compliant or able to produce evidence to support their claim. But data obtained from the DWP by Big Brother Watch, which has been absolutely heroic in alerting the public to the problems associated with the Bill, showed that only one in three people on housing benefits subject to review were in fact being paid the wrong amount. That meant that 200,000 people were placed under suspicion at the hands of an algorithm, despite having done nothing wrong. The algorithm risks are amplified tenfold in the Bill—we should be taking this much more seriously in terms of scrutiny.

On recording how people’s data will be assessed and not relying solely on algorithms, we are given assurances in the Explanatory Notes—the Minister has been clear about this—that

“a human will always be involved in any further inquiries and any decision taken afterwards that might affect eligibility or benefit awards”.

But these assurances are not an adequate safeguard alone, as we have already touched on in earlier groups. On one hand, there is a tendency for human deference to algorithmic outputs—we have all heard the phrase, “The data does not lie”—and I fear that that is what will happen. On the other hand, courts are currently required to presume that computer systems operate correctly, placing the onus upon defendants to provide evidence that the systems they are implicated by are flawed.

There is also the small matter of staffing and resources. With many thousands of accounts being flagged to the DWP under the proposed system, it is not clear what is feasible in terms of the scale and nature of human involvement, or whether it will be genuinely meaningful. The Minister only moments ago assured us that members of the DWP would always be involved. Maybe this is the kind of job creation scheme that the Government are involved in, but it seems that that is an awful lot of civil servants who will be required if fraud is happening everywhere, and so on and so forth. So I worry.

Indeed, the impact assessment on the Bill acknowledges that the DWP may have to slow the volume of data requests to manage the potential volumes, because there will be so many. If a human decision-maker does not have enough time to properly review a decision—which is my fear—as may well be the case with the deluge of data that DWP will expect to receive from banks, the human input cannot be properly regarded as meaningful.

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[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

I have just answered my own question.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I apologise for jumping up and down. This is the confusion I have in relation to this area: if you are a fraudster and you are watching this Committee very carefully, as the Minister indicated they are doing—I am sympathetic to the idea that I am perhaps being naive in publishing, “Here you are, fraudsters, this is what you should do”—it seems to me that what you would do is set up multiple bank accounts. In fact, I think it was the Minister for Transformation, Andrew Western MP, who conceded

“that we will not have full sight of somebody’s accounts if they bank with more than one institution”.—[Official Report, Commons, Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill Committee, 6/3/25; col. 237.]

So it seems to me that the fraudsters are over there playing the system.

This is a Bill that gives enormous powers, about which I worry. It seems that the eligibility criteria should be known in order for them to be accountable. I do not want to be naive, but the people who actually need the eligibility criteria are those people who might, by error, breach the eligibility criteria, but also, democracy requires it because we need to know how to hold this legislation to account. The fraudsters—the people who are deliberately going out of their way to rip off the welfare system—already know how to play this, if that makes any sense. Even as I was tabling the amendment, I was aware of the fact that I am not saying, “Let’s give the game away completely”; however, we cannot just say, “We can’t tell you anything in case the fraudsters find out”, when there are real loopholes here that the fraudsters are going to exploit anyway.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

Related to that, as far as I understand it, some benefits can be paid into foreign bank accounts but they are totally beyond the scope of the Bill, so, presumably, if there is fraud there, it will never really be tackled. Secondly, is it permissible for a UK-resident benefit recipient to request that the benefit be paid into a bank account in the Cayman Islands, the Bahamas, Cyprus or somewhere else?

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Clearly, I am expressing this really badly, because I have said it about 17 times and still have not explained it clearly.

When the noble Viscount was a Minister—perhaps it was his predecessor—under the previous Government, they were working with banks to find out whether the proof of concept worked. The answer is that, yes, it does. Test and learn is about saying, “We’re now going to build this up and operate it at scale. How do we do it? What does it look like?” Bit by bit, we will work with a small number of banks; try it out; make sure that the processes, the data pushes and so on work properly; and work with a small number of people who also understand how the sector works as a whole. Then, when it is working, we will roll it out to a wider number.

I am sorry if I have not been explaining that clearly, but that is the difference. The proof of concept asks: can it be made to work? The answer is yes. The test and learn asks: what is the best way to set this up so that the systems will work and so that we get the right information at the right time—a time when we are able to work it properly? I hope that that has helped.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I give many thanks to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. In some ways, it has clarified quite a lot for me; in some ways, I am completely confused. I will go off and read the debate, reflect on it then work out how to bring this issue forward on Report.

I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, for his supportive remarks in general and the insights that he brought; they are much appreciated. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for drawing attention to my dilemmas around transparency. I want there to be more transparency but, as I said, I do not want to be associated with being an idiot—well, that ship might have sailed—in relation to giving the game away. Transparency is important in politics and in terms of trust in a new Bill that will bring about a huge change in the way the state is viewed, in terms of how it relates to citizens on benefits and so on. One of the reasons for this confusion and difficulty is that this Bill insists on treating fraud and error indistinguishably. That is one of the dangers with it. Fraud is one thing, but people who are inadvertently overpaid when errors are made are treated with the same piece of legislation. That is why it was helpful of the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, to remind us earlier that there are people who will play the system—that is one thing—while there are other people who could inadvertently be treated like criminals.