Smoke-free (Private Vehicles) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I greatly welcome this legislation. I want to ask two questions, which I hope the Minister will be able to deal with. Before doing so, though, I want to say why I am particularly pleased about this. In the early 1980s I tried to introduce a Bill in the other place to ban smoking in public places. I was almost literally laughed out of the House because everyone thought that it was ridiculous to have a ban on smoking in public places. Of course, it is now accepted as the norm.

I was also vilified, as indeed were all the anti-smoking campaigners, by an organisation called FOREST, the so-called Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco. I do not know how anyone can enjoy it—they just have to do it because they become addicted—but there we are. The organisation, which was funded by the tobacco companies, twisted all the figures. It was not a very pleasant experience. I know that my friends who worked in Action on Smoking and Health at the time, as well as other people, were subject to the same kind of criticism and attacks. I am very pleased that things have moved on since then and I commend the Government for pursuing this matter.

However, I have two questions. One relates to enforcement. The ban on smoking in public places has been effectively self-enforcing because the penalties and the problems that would be created by people smoking, particularly for publicans, shopkeepers and people responsible for public places, would be substantial, not just in terms of the fines that they might be subjected to but in terms of losing licences and other problems. Therefore, as I said, the ban has been effectively self-enforcing, with all but 100% compliance, I am pleased to say.

However, the legislation concerning the use of mobile phones in cars has not been so effective. I have seen a lot of people continuing to use mobile phones in cars while driving but I understand that there have been relatively few prosecutions of this extremely dangerous habit. I get the impression that the police are not particularly good at making sure that people are pursued in relation to that offence, and I am a little concerned that the offence of smoking in a car with children present will be more akin to using a mobile phone while driving than smoking in public places such as pubs, shops and so on. I would be grateful if the Minister could deal with that and give an assurance that enforcement and compliance will be more effective.

Secondly, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro—who I commend for the way in which he has pursued this issue—I am not sure that £50 is a sufficient penalty. I understand that it is similar to the penalty for parking in an inappropriate or illegal place, a much less grave offence than one that causes danger and harm to children. Many people will take the risk of smoking in a car with children present, particularly as, with no disrespect, a £50 fine to Ferrari drivers and drivers of large, expensive cars will not mean very much in terms of their regular expenditure. I wonder whether this is an appropriate penalty for the offence. The Minister mentioned a review; perhaps this matter could be looked at in that review.

Those are my only two reservations, neither of which takes away from my warm welcome to the Government for these regulations. As the Minister knows, I do not regularly welcome the things that this Government do, but on this occasion I am pleased to do so.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these regulations and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, on his work to achieve this position. Children themselves have asked for this measure. In the 2011 British Lung Foundation survey, 86% of children between the ages of eight and 15 said that they wanted protection. It is worth noting that the Welsh Fresh Start campaign, which was aimed at cutting down smoking in cars when children were present, did not have as great a success as one would have hoped, but these regulations send an important message that will change behaviour. Quite apart from encouragement to change behaviour, there needs to be a clear message out there.

The data from Wales have shown that 4% of children reported being in a car when someone was smoking almost every day, and 23% reported that they were sometimes in a car when someone was smoking. Where a parent smoked, one in five children reported that smoking was allowed in the family car. These regulations are welcome and will have a major part to play in bringing about behaviour change. Of course the fact that there are provisions for a fine is important, but behaviour change will be most sustainable in the long term.

I am grateful to the Minister for his comment that he will keep a watching brief on e-cigarettes and that that consultation will continue. I worry that we are at the beginning of an explosion of a highly addictive substance.