Smoke-free (Private Vehicles) Regulations 2015

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Ribeiro (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very kind words. This is a good-news day for children. These regulations and the Bill that went through are about protecting our children in the future. I think that we will send a very powerful message by passing these regulations and I hope that noble Lords will support them.

There is no point in rehearsing all the evidence that the Minister has very kindly given us. However, there is evidence that there has been a significant improvement in children’s health since regulations were introduced. We have only to look to Canada, where there is a ban on smoking in 10 of the 13 provinces. The evidence suggests that since the legislation was brought in, children’s exposure to second-hand smoke has dropped by a third.

The other important thing is the Government’s intention that these regulations should be not just punitive and about fining people but about behavioural change. When there was real reluctance from the Government to see the Bill go through—both when I introduced it as a Private Member’s Bill and early on during its passage—the questions raised were how to police it and how to ensure that people stick to the regulations and the law. The very fact that the emphasis is going to be on prevention, with a focus on health, is good.

Regarding the £50 fine that will be introduced, I am also delighted that the Government have taken the view that there will be a discount of £20 for those who pay within 15 days. That is a very important incentive. I had hoped that we might be able to introduce a learning exercise similar to the one for speeding, where people get some help in understanding the hazards and dangers of speeding. I had hoped that something like that might be brought in under this legislation. None the less, there will be a review five years from now in 2020, and if the general view is that the legislation has been effective, I am sure that it will be possible to devise an educational package so that people do not see the need to smoke in cars with children present. I thank the Minister for taking through these regulations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I greatly welcome this legislation. I want to ask two questions, which I hope the Minister will be able to deal with. Before doing so, though, I want to say why I am particularly pleased about this. In the early 1980s I tried to introduce a Bill in the other place to ban smoking in public places. I was almost literally laughed out of the House because everyone thought that it was ridiculous to have a ban on smoking in public places. Of course, it is now accepted as the norm.

I was also vilified, as indeed were all the anti-smoking campaigners, by an organisation called FOREST, the so-called Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco. I do not know how anyone can enjoy it—they just have to do it because they become addicted—but there we are. The organisation, which was funded by the tobacco companies, twisted all the figures. It was not a very pleasant experience. I know that my friends who worked in Action on Smoking and Health at the time, as well as other people, were subject to the same kind of criticism and attacks. I am very pleased that things have moved on since then and I commend the Government for pursuing this matter.

However, I have two questions. One relates to enforcement. The ban on smoking in public places has been effectively self-enforcing because the penalties and the problems that would be created by people smoking, particularly for publicans, shopkeepers and people responsible for public places, would be substantial, not just in terms of the fines that they might be subjected to but in terms of losing licences and other problems. Therefore, as I said, the ban has been effectively self-enforcing, with all but 100% compliance, I am pleased to say.

However, the legislation concerning the use of mobile phones in cars has not been so effective. I have seen a lot of people continuing to use mobile phones in cars while driving but I understand that there have been relatively few prosecutions of this extremely dangerous habit. I get the impression that the police are not particularly good at making sure that people are pursued in relation to that offence, and I am a little concerned that the offence of smoking in a car with children present will be more akin to using a mobile phone while driving than smoking in public places such as pubs, shops and so on. I would be grateful if the Minister could deal with that and give an assurance that enforcement and compliance will be more effective.

Secondly, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro—who I commend for the way in which he has pursued this issue—I am not sure that £50 is a sufficient penalty. I understand that it is similar to the penalty for parking in an inappropriate or illegal place, a much less grave offence than one that causes danger and harm to children. Many people will take the risk of smoking in a car with children present, particularly as, with no disrespect, a £50 fine to Ferrari drivers and drivers of large, expensive cars will not mean very much in terms of their regular expenditure. I wonder whether this is an appropriate penalty for the offence. The Minister mentioned a review; perhaps this matter could be looked at in that review.

Those are my only two reservations, neither of which takes away from my warm welcome to the Government for these regulations. As the Minister knows, I do not regularly welcome the things that this Government do, but on this occasion I am pleased to do so.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these regulations and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, on his work to achieve this position. Children themselves have asked for this measure. In the 2011 British Lung Foundation survey, 86% of children between the ages of eight and 15 said that they wanted protection. It is worth noting that the Welsh Fresh Start campaign, which was aimed at cutting down smoking in cars when children were present, did not have as great a success as one would have hoped, but these regulations send an important message that will change behaviour. Quite apart from encouragement to change behaviour, there needs to be a clear message out there.

The data from Wales have shown that 4% of children reported being in a car when someone was smoking almost every day, and 23% reported that they were sometimes in a car when someone was smoking. Where a parent smoked, one in five children reported that smoking was allowed in the family car. These regulations are welcome and will have a major part to play in bringing about behaviour change. Of course the fact that there are provisions for a fine is important, but behaviour change will be most sustainable in the long term.

I am grateful to the Minister for his comment that he will keep a watching brief on e-cigarettes and that that consultation will continue. I worry that we are at the beginning of an explosion of a highly addictive substance.

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[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and I am grateful for their universal welcome for these regulations. I begin by referring to the remarks of my noble friends Lady Tyler and Lord Ribeiro and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, all of whom reminded us why we are doing this—the noble Viscount from a very personal perspective. Three million children are exposed to second-hand smoke every year and we want to protect them. Existing smoke-free legislation is popular, as has been said, and has a very high rate of compliance. Personally, I credit the public with more willingness to follow the law and therefore protect their children from second-hand smoke, rather than thinking of elaborate ways to break the law.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about public attitudes in relation to these regulations. We know from the responses to the consultation that there is widespread support for protecting children from the harms of second-hand smoke. I do not expect people to go to great lengths to carry on smoking in cars when they know that it is an offence to do so. As has been said, legislation can be instrumental in driving behavioural and cultural change. That has certainly been true in other areas of regulation in the past. Of course, we have to inform the public in a reasonable way before these regulations come into force.

More generally, we agree that education is essential in informing people of the harms of second-hand smoke, particularly to children, and we recognise the importance of social marketing campaigns. The department and Public Health England will continue to protect children from the harms of exposure to second-hand smoke by encouraging voluntary action through social marketing. Previous campaign results illustrate that such campaigns have been effective both in changing behaviour and in driving quit attempts. Of course, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that our ambition as a nation should be to drive down the prevalence of smoking to the maximum extent that we can. We are going to monitor progress in respect of these regulations by assessing the reduction in the number of children who are exposed to second-hand smoke in cars from the current level of 26%, and it is possible to do that.

As I said, I agree with my noble friend Lord Ribeiro about the importance of building public awareness of these health harms. Once again, I pay tribute to all his efforts in this sphere of activity. I also add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for his welcome for these regulations, and I acknowledge his far-sightedness in this context, even if he felt like a voice in the wilderness for a number of years. He expressed concern about the enforcement of the regulations—in particular, in view of his perception that the police do not go to great lengths to enforce the mobile phone laws. In fact, my advice is that the police assure us that they endeavour to enforce mobile phone legislation, as they would any law. In fact, in 2012 more than 90,000 fixed penalty notices were issued for mobile phone offences. We estimate that considerably fewer fixed penalty notices will be issued for smoking in private vehicles—possibly around or slightly above 2,000 each year.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, also questioned whether the £50 figure was sufficient. The regulations were drafted following discussions with the police and others to provide for effective enforcement. As I said, the police have confirmed that they will enforce these regulations in the same way as they enforce other laws, such as those relating to seat belts and the use of mobile phones. It is for individual police forces to decide how enforcement will be carried out locally. They have advised that this can be taken forward by local police officers in conjunction with their wider functions on road safety. For example, when running an operation to check compliance with the laws on seat belts or child car seats, the police would also check for anyone smoking or discuss the offences with the driver if there was tobacco in the car. A fine of £50 is consistent with the existing smoke-free legislation, but that level of fine could certainly be subject to review when the regulations as a whole are reviewed.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Was any consideration given to putting points on licences? That would be a much greater deterrent. My understanding is that people feel very worried about having any points added to their licence because of the effect: once it tots up, they could lose their licence. I understand that this is being dealt with as a public health matter but in my view smoking while driving creates a bit of a danger, just as mobile phone use while driving does. I wondered whether that was considered as likely to be a more effective deterrent.

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[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to both noble Lords. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on the question of points on the driving licence, this avenue was considered but rejected because it would be inconsistent with current legislation. However, I take the point about road safety. As he will be aware, if police judge that a driver is driving unsafely, they have powers to take action under different legislation.

With regard to the position in Wales, smoke-free legislation is a devolved matter, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is aware. I am advised that the Welsh Government have consulted on similar provisions, and we are working with them to co-ordinate our approach where possible.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am sorry to come in again. Will the Minister confirm whether that is also the case in Scotland?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am aware that there is legislation before the Scottish Parliament that seems to seek to introduce similar provisions, but I am not aware of the proposed timing that the Scottish Government envisage.

I was asked about the implementation date by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. He put forward the suggestion that 1 July might have been a better date than October. We chose the common commencement date of 1 October because we judged that we would need that length of time to achieve a sufficient level of public awareness, and indeed for the police to be adequately prepared for their enforcement role.