Financial Services Bill

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I do not have that information on me, but I will endeavour to have it by the time I wind up the debate. It is important that there is evidence, that we do not respond on a knee-jerk basis and that we ensure that we protect vulnerable consumers. That includes ensuring that the right protection is in place for those who wish to borrow money to meet their needs and we should also ensure that we do not push them into the arms of illegal money lenders. One change we are making in this group of amendments includes ensuring that the work of the illegal money lending teams out in the regions can continue when we shift the regulation of consumer credit to the FCA.

I am aware of these issues and it is important to the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and to mine that we get the right answer. A lot of work has gone on in the past to consider the cost of credit, and we need to proceed on the basis of evidence rather than closing our minds to what solutions there might be. Let us have some evidence to inform the debates so that we can give our constituents the right answer, rather than something that happens to be convenient to some political whim or desire. I believe that we should have evidence-based policy making and that that is the right approach. All the stakeholders would also agree that we need to support this work with some evidence, rather than proceeding without a firm evidential base.

New clause 12 concerns the important issue of how consumers who take part in prepayment schemes are protected and how they are treated if the provider of such a scheme becomes insolvent. I suspect that many members of the House will have dealt with this matter over recent years, given how many people were affected by the collapse of Farepak just before Christmas 2006. The Government have great sympathy for those who have lost money in such schemes and are aware of the frustration they feel. One problem with the Farepak insolvency has been the fact that it has taken so long for the customers to get their money back. Work with the liquidators is continuing.

The challenge is whether the Bill is the appropriate place for regulating such a function. Prepayment schemes are advance payments by a consumer for goods and services that are not supplied immediately; they are not financial services. It is not clear whether they are an issue for any of the bodies provided for in the Bill to consider and I do not think they will be a matter for the Financial Policy Committee, with its remit of considering threats to financial stability.

Since the collapse of Farepak, a considerable amount of work has been done to consider how best to protect consumers who enter into prepayment schemes and how best to deal with situations where companies collapse. Following the collapse of Farepak, the then Department of Trade and Industry worked with the remaining hamper companies to put in place effective protection for customers’ prepayments, including oversight by a new body, the Christmas Prepayment Association. The Government also supported the OFT to deliver a consumer awareness and education campaign to empower consumers to make decisions that are right for their circumstances. The Money Advice Service also provides advice on its website about what protection is offered for various ways of saving money, including prepayment schemes. I would encourage hon. Members who are aware of constituents who continue to engage with such schemes to point them in the direction of the Money Advice Service.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

If the Minister does not feel that this Bill is the appropriate vehicle for dealing with that matter through regulation, when he sums up could he outline where it should be dealt with? There is a strong view that the current legislative framework is not sufficient.

[Mr Hoban]

Part of the challenge is that such schemes are part of a subset of advance payment schemes that are not necessarily covered by the Bill. These issues are consumer issues and I shall certainly raise with my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for consumer affairs where he feels that the best opportunity might be to do that and whether there are some non-statutory alternatives to regulation that will help protect the customers of such schemes.

Before I speak to Government amendment 3, I can let my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North know when the research will be published. The research project will conclude this summer, and given that the transfer of consumer credit to the FCA will not take place until 2014, that gives us time to act. That is not to say that nothing is happening in the meantime in the regulation of consumer credit: the OFT is doing a great deal of work in that area. I am as keen as he and others are to ensure that the matter is brought to a head as soon as possible, so that the right protections are put in place for our constituents.

Government amendment 3 aims to improve the drafting, following the close and valuable scrutiny in the Public Bill Committee. In Committee, questions were raised about the appropriateness of “supply”, and the amendment clarifies the Money Advice Service financial education function so that it should include the promotion of awareness of the financial advantages and disadvantages relating to issues that may arise over the lifetime of the product, not just to the initial purchase or supply of a particular good and service. The function might include, for example, promoting awareness of the financial advantages and disadvantages of a person exercising the right to receive part of their pension savings as a lump sum, or the financial advantages or disadvantages of the various options open to a person who is having difficulty paying their mortgage.

I am confident that the Bill as it stands already provides for such matters to be covered by the Money Advice Service financial education function, but the amendment helpfully clarifies the scope of the MAS’s specific duty to promote awareness of the advantages and disadvantages of particular goods and services. I am grateful to the Members who raised the matter in the Committee, and I hope that the amendment addresses their concerns.

Amendments 37 and 55 would affect the functions of the MAS. Amendment 55 would require the MAS to support the provision of legal advice in relation to personal debt, with funding received from the Ministry of Justice to support that work. The amendment would reinstate changes to legal aid in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. For the reasons clearly set out by my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, we cannot use the Financial Services Bill to compensate for reforms to legal aid in the other Bill as a roundabout way of maintaining funding for not-for-profit bodies; moreover, effectively reinstating those categories in the scope of legal aid means reinstating legal aid for all legal advice, not just for those in not-for-profit organisations.

Amendment 55 is not required because the Money Advice Service already has sufficient responsibility and funding to assist members of the public with debt management. The MAS and other organisations provide debt advice directly, including by advising people who are facing difficulties with debt on the options available to them and the possible legal ramifications. For example, they provide advice to people who are at risk of losing their home and advice on options to resolve their financial difficulties. Any debt adviser trained to intermediate level can give advice on such matters as a matter of course. In contentious areas of law, such as the impact of insolvency or immigration status, an adviser could seek external advice. Similarly, if a non-debt issue arose, or substantive legal advice was required, an adviser could refer the client to a specialist solicitor. I therefore do not think the amendment is necessary, as the MAS and other organisations, through their debt advice services, already advise people facing difficulties with debt on the impact of the law on their situation.

Amendment 37 would require the MAS to provide

“targeted, proactive and easily accessible advice to those encountering economic disadvantage, financial exclusion or financial exploitation.”

I am sympathetic to the intention behind the amendment: clearly, the service provided by the MAS should encompass such groups of people. However, as I said in Committee, one of the key features of the Money Advice Service is the breadth of consumers it is there to serve. Millions of people can be vulnerable to poor money management at any point in their lives, especially as they experience key life events. Similarly, many people, regardless of their financial circumstances, may not know where to turn for impartial financial advice, or may not know that they need information and advice in the first place. I therefore do not think it appropriate for the legislation to prescribe which groups are in most need of the service. By focusing the Money Advice Service on particular groups, we risk neglecting others who may be equally in need.

It is clear to me, from discussions I have had with the management of the Money Advice Service, that they recognise the need to provide support across a wide range of people. They also recognise the importance of face-to-face debt and money advice and the importance of ensuring the right channels of support are there to help those in need of financial advice—for example, those who need guidance on how to get out of debt or how to protect their families in the long term. I believe the MAS is acutely aware of its broader social obligation.

The group of amendments before us raises important issues that impact on many in our constituencies. The action that we have taken to tighten the consumer credit regime by moving consumer credit from the OFT to the FCA is the right way to proceed. This is a dynamic and changing market, and one of the great advantages that the FCA brings is the opportunity to keep issues such as the cost of credit under review and to make sure that it responds in a timely manner to help protect our constituents in these difficult areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In previous debates, I focused my anger on the techniques of doorstep lenders, who build up a relationship with the consumer, pop by once a month and, over a cup of tea, suggest items for which they might want to borrow money, trapping them in a lifetime of expensive, high-cost debt. For example, they might pop round at Christmas to ask, “Have you organised your Christmas presents for your children?” The householder says, “No, I’m not sure I can afford it,” to which the lender replies, “No problem. We’re here. We can lend you that. It’s only £3 a week. I’m sure you’re going to be having relatives to visit, so why don’t you get your carpet sorted at the same time.” Those nudge-nudge techniques, which encourage people to take on high-cost debt, need to be looked at.

Amendments 37 and 55 seek to empower consumers, and there are important factors, such as the need to access impartial advice, that need to be looked at. I found through my work as chair of the all-party group on financial education that 91% of people who got into financial difficulty would have made a different decision had they known otherwise. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but through our casework as MPs we see that some people make the wrong decisions and get themselves into difficulty. Of the three ways I would like to see that tackled, one is by the provision of easy access to advice through organisations such as the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, Citizens Advice and the Money Advice Service. To my mind, if a debt management service offers a high-cost loan, it should provide links to those organisations, just as when somebody buys a packet of cigarettes, there is a health warning on it. There is then no excuse. It relies on consumer choice, but if somebody chooses to, they can take up the advice.

It will also help if all consumers have financial education in the first place so that they understand the advice. In the case of the Money Advice Service, one needs to know something about the products in the first place. Obviously, face-to-face advice would be ideal. I would also like all loans to be displayed in pure and simple cash terms, so that every consumer can make an informed decision. I am sure that even Treasury Ministers would struggle to work out what is meant by an APR. I will not embarrass individual MPs by carrying out a test, as I have in previous debates.

Finally, I deal with clause 10. I was interested in the Minister’s comments about advice being given to consumers six months in advance. As we all recognise, that presents a challenge, because if somebody could predict what will happen in six months’ time, they would be very wealthy. The principle is right: we need to protect consumers from sudden changes. The evidence shows that the majority of people who fall into financial difficulties do so because of a change of circumstances such as the loss of a job, a family bereavement or a divorce. One could extend that to a sudden change in the cost of a loan because of the interest rates.

Although this is often derided, I think that we need to encourage a savings culture. If one has money in reserve, one is better equipped to deal with a sudden shock to one’s circumstances. I welcome the moves of the Nationwide building society for first-time buyers, because they are among those most at risk from a change in circumstances owing to a change in their job or in their interest rates, because they extend their borrowing to the absolute limit to get themselves on the housing ladder. Nationwide has introduced a linked savings account into which people have to put regular savings for the six months to a year that they are trying to get their first mortgage. It encourages them to carry on doing so, so that if interest rates and the cost of their loan go up suddenly, they have a financial buffer. More could be done to encourage the industry to promote such products.

[Katy Clark]

It is a pleasure to speak to new clause 12, which I tabled along with many other hon. Members. It would require the Financial Policy Committee to

“carry out and publish a review of the operation of consumer prepayment schemes to consider whether existing protection for consumers is sufficient.”

It would require the report to include

“an analysis of whether consumers of prepayment schemes should be made preferential creditors for the purposes of the distribution of the realised assets…in the event of insolvency.”

I come to this issue as a result of the experiences of my constituents when the Farepak Christmas savings club collapsed on 13 October 2006. Many hon. Members will be well aware of the background to the Farepak issue, which has been raised in this Chamber on a number of occasions. More than five years after the collapse of the company, almost none of the 120,000 people who lost out have received a penny of their money back. Those 120,000 savers lost about £38 million. Some money was distributed as a result of a response fund, which was set up in the lead-up to Christmas 2006, but the people who lost out have not received any money from those who are dealing with Farepak’s assets.

In my constituency, hundreds of families were affected. I pay tribute to my constituents Louise McDaid and Jean McLardy, who, along with many others, set up the Farepak victims committee, which continues to campaign for justice for those who lost out as a result of Farepak’s collapse.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend add to that list my constituent Deborah Harvey, who was a Farepak agent and who has campaigned tirelessly with the Farepak victims committee? The committee recently contacted a raft of companies that run prepayment schemes to seek assurances about the future protection of people’s money, but it has not had a welcoming response. Does my hon. Friend agree that we owe it to Farepak’s victims to ensure that this sort of thing never happens again and that such people are protected in legislation?

[Katy Clark]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on her work on this issue. She led an Adjournment debate about it shortly before Christmas to commemorate the fifth anniversary of Farepak’s collapse.

I, too, pay tribute to Deborah Harvey, who is the current secretary of the Farepak victims committee and who has done a tremendous amount of work on this issue. The Farepak victims committee is unusual in that it has continued, in an organised way, to bring people together on this issue over a long period. One problem is that the type of people who tend to be affected when such things happen are not organised. The work done by Louise McDaid, Jean McLardy, Deborah Harvey and many others has helped to keep the issue in the spotlight. It is important to look at the situation again today, because it is a disgrace that, five years on, it has not been brought to a conclusion and people still do not know for sure how much money they will get back.

One reason for the huge problems was that the Farepak victims were unsecured creditors. That meant that when the company went bust, the money that they had paid in was not protected, as it is secured creditors who get preference. We need to look at the model whereby people pay money in and effectively save up for goods that they have not received.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is outlining the gap between the perceptions of those who were saving with Farepak, which was based in my constituency, and the reality of the regulatory framework. The gap was between people’s belief that they were saving into a pot that they would be able to reclaim from and the reality, which was that they were unsecured creditors. That must never be allowed to happen again. This is a chance for change so that we do not again see the abuse that we saw with Farepak .

[Katy Clark]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He has shown that he has a full grasp of the issues. Many of those who saved through Farepak for Christmas 2006 believed that there was some form of protection for the money that they put in. They were of the opinion that they were being responsible by saving in that way. My view is that they were being responsible. We have a duty, as legislators, to put protections in statute to enable people to continue to save using such models. I think that those people had a reasonable expectation that there was regulation in place to protect the money that they put in. Many of them presumed that there was such regulation.

Five years ago, a voluntary body called the Christmas Prepayment Association was set up. However, many prepayment companies are not members of that organisation and there is no requirement for them to belong to it. Some of the biggest players in the market, such as Tesco and Asda, are not members. The association covers only Christmas schemes and not the wider prepayment sector.

I believe that the prepayment sector has not been regulated because, over time, different forms of prepayment have developed. Mechanisms have been put in place to provide protection for the earliest types of prepayment, such as those used in the travel industry. The Farepak case highlights important failings in the regulation of the prepayment industry. It has become clear that that lack of regulation extends not just to the Christmas hamper sector, but to a wide range of prepayment situations in which consumers pay in advance of receiving goods. I have already mentioned the holiday sector, in which the Association of British Travel Agents operates, and there are many other situations in which a customer pays for something by way of instalments.

That practice is usually undertaken by those of limited means, who are at risk of losing both their money and the product if the fund goes bust before they take delivery. Such a form of payment is used by such large organisations as Tesco and Asda, but also by small organisations in all our communities. Some people pay over a period for goods for a celebration, for example, perhaps paying a butcher instalments of £10 a week. We should provide a statutory framework so that such people get some type of preference if the organisation in question no longer exists.

One reason why it is important to have regulation is that it tends to be people from poorer communities who pay in advance by instalment. They are exactly the people who can least afford to lose out, and I do not believe that they should carry the risk when they choose that model of payment for goods. Many of them honestly assume that their money will be ring-fenced in some way.

We need to move to a model whereby moneys that are prepaid are effectively held in trust, and any organisation that can no longer deliver the goods because of a collapse gives those moneys priority. I therefore believe that it is appropriate that an organisation such as the Financial Policy Committee examines the issue. Prepayment exists in a wide range of scenarios, with people paying over a period in advance of receiving the goods. I therefore ask the Government to look sympathetically on new clause 12 and consider pursuing the course of action that it suggests.

[Lorely Burt]

I begin by warmly welcoming the Government amendments that provide further clarity on the intention to transfer the regulation of all consumer credit businesses currently regulated by the Office of Fair Trading to the Financial Conduct Authority, while retaining all the protections that consumers currently enjoy under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

New clause 9 would commit the Government to phasing out charges for debt management plans. Whatever the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) thinks, businesses providing those plans are in the main legitimate. He talked about the scandalous behaviour in which certain debt management companies have indulged, but a number of companies look after their customers effectively and caringly.

[Katy Clark]

Does the hon. Lady agree that one cause for concern must be the fact that organisations profit from debt management? The charging of fees by profit-making organisations seems inappropriate. Does she agree that we should encourage voluntary and non-profit making organisations in the sector?

[Lorely Burt]

Of course I would encourage such organisations, and as my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said, we need to give people financial education. There is an image of companies profiting from others’ misery, but there are companies that act responsibly and ethically, so I do not support new clause 9. It is a shame that all companies have to be tarred with the same brush, and the new clause would remove an element of choice from the consumer. Of course, many consumers would not choose a debt management company over a free service given the choice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Katy Clark]

What is different about this situation, however, is that often the reason for prepayment is that the person buying the product wants to purchase in that way because of their financial situation, and the person selling the product gets the financial advantage of holding that money for a period of time. I therefore cannot understand the Minister’s point, in that at present the advantage is with the organisation selling the product. Does the Minister agree that we should be considering how to move towards a situation in which the consumer is able to pay in this way and get protection for the funds they have paid out?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. It is my understanding that some of these prepayment schemes get their income from being able to negotiate a discount with the supplier of the goods, as well as, perhaps, from the interest they earn on the prepayments. The question then arises whether the revenue the prepayment scheme gets is sufficient to outweigh the cost of enhancing customer protection. Some of these schemes are administratively expensive, and the cost of protection may exceed the income generated, which would lead to that service being withdrawn from the consumer.

As this exchange demonstrates, some complex issues are involved. The hon. Lady is right to raise them, and it is right that the Government should continue to address them. Many people rely on these schemes and it is important that they are well protected. We should make sure that there are alternative sources of information for them, in order to enable them to judge where they might get best protection and, perhaps, earn some interest themselves on the prepayment they are making, rather than the supplier making that money.