European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 65—Role of Joint Ministerial Committee—

“(1) The Joint Ministerial Committee is to be a forum—

(a) for discussing—

(i) the terms upon which the United Kingdom is to withdraw from the European Union and the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union;

(ii) proposals to amend retained EU law;

(iii) agreed legal and policy frameworks in relation to the subject matter of devolved retained EU law that are to operate throughout the United Kingdom;

(iv) a concordat setting out the process for concluding the legal and policy frameworks mentioned in sub-paragraph (iii); and

(b) for seeking a consensus on those matters between Her Majesty’s Government and the other members of the Joint Ministerial Committee.

(2) Before Her Majesty’s Government concludes a withdrawal agreement, the Secretary of State must produce a document for consideration by the Joint Ministerial Committee setting out—

(a) Her Majesty’s Government’s objectives and strategy in negotiating and concluding a withdrawal agreement;

(b) Her Majesty’s Government’s objectives and strategy in relation to establishing a framework for the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union;

(c) the steps Her Majesty’s Government intends to take to keep the Joint Ministerial Committee informed of progress in reaching a withdrawal agreement;

(d) the steps Her Majesty’s Government intends to take to consult each member of the Joint Ministerial Committee before entering into a withdrawal agreement and for taking the views of each member into account;

(e) the steps Her Majesty’s Government intends to take to seek the approval of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly before entering into a withdrawal agreement.

(3) Until a withdrawal agreement is concluded, the Secretary of State must produce a report every three months for consideration by the Joint Ministerial Committee setting out—

(a) Her Majesty’s Government’s assessment of the progress made against Her Majesty’s Government’s objectives—

(i) in negotiating and concluding the withdrawal agreement;

(ii) in relation to establishing a framework for the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union;

(b) any change to the matters listed in paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (2).

(4) Before concluding a withdrawal agreement the Prime Minister must produce a document setting out the terms of the proposed agreement for consideration by the Joint Ministerial Committee.

(5) Meetings of the Joint Ministerial Committee must, until Her Majesty’s Government concludes a withdrawal agreement, be chaired by—

(a) the Prime Minister, or

(b) the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union.

(6) In this section, “the Joint Ministerial Committee” means the body set up in accordance with Supplementary Agreement A of the Memorandum of Understanding on Devolution, between Her Majesty’s Government, the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive Committee.”

This new clause would put the Joint Ministerial Committee’s role in the withdrawal process on a statutory footing.

Amendment 42, in clause 11, page 7, line 16, leave out subsections (1) to (3) and insert—

“(1) In section 29(2)(d) of the Scotland Act 1998 (no competence for Scottish Parliament to legislate incompatibly with EU law), omit ‘or with EU law’.

(2) In section 108A(2)(e) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (no competence for National Assembly for Wales to legislate incompatibly with EU law), omit ‘or with EU law’.

(3) In section 6(2)(d) of the Northern Ireland Act (no competency for the Assembly to legislate incompatibly with EU law, omit ‘is incompatible with EU law’.”

This amendment removes the Bill’s proposed restrictions on the ability of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate on devolved matters.

Amendment 164, page 7, line 16, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) In section 29(2)(d) of the Scotland Act 1998 (no competence for Scottish Parliament to legislate incompatibly with EU law), omit ‘or with EU law’.

(2) In section 108A(2)(e) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (no competence for National Assembly for Wales to legislate incompatibly with EU law), omit ‘or with EU law’.”

This amendment would replace the Bill’s changes to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales in consequence of EU withdrawal, by removing the restriction on legislative competence relating to EU law and ensuring that no further restriction relating to retained EU law is imposed.

Amendment 132, page 7, line 19, leave out from “law)” to end of line 29 and insert

“omit ‘or with EU law’”.

This amendment is intended to remove the proposed bar on the Scottish Parliament legislating inconsistently with EU law after exit day.

Amendment 90, page 7, leave out lines 22 to 29 and insert—

“‘(4A) An Act of the Scottish Parliament cannot modify, or confer power by subordinate legislation to modify, retained EU law which relates to matters specified in Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998.’”

This amendment would remove the restrictions on the Scottish Parliament modifying retained EU law except in relation to matters that are reserved.

Amendment 133, page 7, line 33, leave out from “law)” to end of line 7 on page 8 and insert

“omit ‘or with EU law’”.

This amendment is intended to remove the proposed bar on the National Assembly for Wales legislating inconsistently with EU law.

Amendment 91, page 7, leave out from beginning of line 36 to the end of line 7 on page 8 and insert—

“‘(8) An Act of the Assembly cannot modify, or confer power by subordinate legislation to modify, retained EU law which relates to matters specified in Schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006.’”

This amendment would remove the restrictions on the National Assembly for Wales modifying retained EU law except in relation to matters that are reserved.

Amendment 134, page 8, line 9, leave out from “Assembly)” to end of line 28 and insert “omit subsection 2(d)”.

This amendment is intended to remove the proposed bar on the Northern Ireland Assembly legislating inconsistently with EU law.

Amendment 92, page 8, leave out lines 14 to 28 and insert—

“‘(6) An Act of the Assembly cannot modify, or confer power by subordinate legislation to modify, retained EU law which relates to matters specified in Schedules 2 or 3 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.’”

This amendment would remove the restrictions on the Northern Ireland Assembly modifying retained EU law except in relation to matters that are reserved or excepted.

Amendment 72, page 8, line 28, at end insert—

“(3A) This section shall not come into effect until—

(a) the Scottish Parliament has passed a resolution approving the provisions in subsection (1);

(b) the National Assembly for Wales has passed a resolution approving the provisions in subsection (2); and

(c) the Northern Ireland Assembly has passed a resolution approving the provisions in subsection (3).”

Amendment 337, page 8, line 33, at end insert—

“(6) Subsections (1), (2) and (3) shall not come into force until the exit day appointed for the purpose of this section, which must not be before the end of any transitional period agreed under Article 50 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.”

This amendment, alongside Amendment 42 and NC64, would establish that the UK Government has until the end of transitional arrangements to create any UK-wide frameworks.

Clause 11 stand part.

Amendment 165, in schedule 3, page 25, line 37, leave out paragraphs 1 and 2 and insert—

“1 In section 57(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (no power for members of the Scottish Government to make subordinate legislation, or otherwise act, incompatibly with EU law or Convention rights), omit ‘or with EU law’.

2 In the Government of Wales Act 2006, omit section 80 (EU law).”

This amendment would replace the Bill’s changes to the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers and Welsh Ministers in consequence of withdrawal from the EU, by removing the restriction on competence relating to EU law and ensuring that no further restriction relating to retained EU law is imposed.

Amendment 183, page 28, line 2, leave out from first “and” to end of line 3.

This consequential amendment, linked to Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3, would change a heading in the Scotland Act 1998 to remove a reference to retained EU law.

Amendment 184, page 28, line 38, leave out from “(d)” to end of line 39 and insert

“omit ‘or with EU law’”.

This consequential amendment, linked to Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3, would change the definition of devolution issues in the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendment 185, page 29, line 5, leave out paragraph 21.

This consequential amendment, linked to Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3, would enable changes to the procedure for subordinate legislation in the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendment 186, page 29, line 28, leave out from “subsection” to end of line 29 and insert “(4), omit paragraph (d)”.

This amendment makes a change consequential on Amendment 165, which would omit section 80 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, making section 58A (4)(d) of that Act redundant.

Amendment 187, page 30, line 4, leave out

“before ‘EU’ insert ‘Retained’”

and insert “omit ‘EU law’”.

Amendment 165 omits section 80 of the Government of Wales Act 2006. This amendment would amend the changes made to the heading before section 80 to reflect the omission of section 80 of the Government of Wales Act 2006.

Amendment 188, page 30, line 5, leave out paragraph 31.

This amendment makes a change consequential on Amendment 165, which would omit section 80 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, making paragraph 31 of Schedule 3 in this Bill redundant.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

Amendment 177, in schedule 2, page 19, line 47, leave out “and retained EU law”.

This is a consequential amendment linked to Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3.

Amendment 178, page 20, line 23, leave out “and retained EU law”.

This is a consequential amendment linked to Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3..

Amendment 179, page 23, line 21, leave out “and retained EU law”.

This is a consequential amendment linked to amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3.

Amendment 180, page 23, line 25, leave out

“and section 57(4) and (5) of that Act”.

This is a consequential amendment linked to amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3.

Amendment 181, page 23, line 31, leave out “and retained EU law”.

This is a consequential amendment linked to amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3.

Amendment 182, page 23, line 35, leave out “80(8)” and insert “80”.

This consequential amendment, linked to amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3, changes the reference to section 80 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 to make clear that the restriction on the powers of the Welsh Ministers not to act or legislate incompatibly with EU law is removed.

Amendment 189, in schedule 8, page 50, line 19, leave out

“section 57(4) of the Scotland Act 1998, section 80(8) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 or”.

This amendment and Amendment 190 are in consequence of Amendment 165 as no restriction relating to retained EU law on the making of subordinate legislation by the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers would apply.

Amendment 190, page 51, line 1, leave out

“section 57(4) of the Scotland Act 1998, section 80(8) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 or”.

This amendment and Amendment 189 are in consequence of Amendment 165 to Schedule 3 as no restriction relating to retained EU law on the making of subordinate legislation by the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers will apply.

Amendment 191, page 55, leave out lines 8 to 13 and insert—

(a) in paragraph (a), omit sub-paragraph (ii), and

(b) in paragraph (b), omit “or with EU law”.”.

This amendment would amend the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 on the right of the Advocate General to take part in proceedings in consequence of removing the restriction on the competence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government by Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3.

Amendment 192, page 59, leave out lines 10 to 16.

This amendment, with Amendments 193, 194 and 195, is in consequence of Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3 which would remove the powers to make an Order in Council to adjust the new restriction on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendment 193, page 59, leave out lines 23 to 29.

This amendment, with Amendments 192, 194 and 195, is in consequence of Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3 which would remove the powers to make an Order in Council to adjust the new restriction on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendment 194, page 59, line 47, leave out from beginning to end of line 8 on page 60.

This amendment, with Amendments 192, 193 and 195, is in consequence of Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3 which would remove the powers to make an Order in Council to adjust the new restriction on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendment 195, page 60, leave out lines 13 to 23.

This amendment, with Amendments 192, 193 and 194, is in consequence of Amendments 164 and 165 to Clause 11 and Schedule 3 which would remove the powers to make an Order in Council to adjust the new restriction on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales.

[Jenny Chapman]

It is a pleasure to serve under your guidance, Mrs Laing. I will speak to new clauses 64 and 65, as well as to amendments 42 and 337, which stand in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends.

New clause 64 would establish a collaborative procedure for the creation of UK-wide frameworks. It would require that the Secretary of State must lay before each House proposals for replacing European frameworks with UK ones. We need those frameworks to enable the functioning of the UK internal market; to ensure compliance with international obligations; to ensure the UK can negotiate and enter into international treaties, or, if we leave the customs union, trade agreements; to enable the management of common resources; to administer and provide access to justice in cases with a cross-border element; and to safeguard the security of the UK. The frameworks will have a significant impact on the carefully constructed devolution settlements in the Union. They must be created in collaboration with the devolved Administrations.

The birth of devolved Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was a significant change to the running of the United Kingdom. The then Scottish Secretary, Donald Dewar, battled to extract powers from Whitehall mandarins, who attempted to cling on to them. Then, as now, the default position of Whitehall is to hold on to power whenever possible. There are those who believe that this pro-Whitehall centralising tendency, on display yet again in clause 11, is evidence of the Tories’ reluctance to engage with devolved Administrations, or, even worse, that it signals a persistence of their initial opposition to devolution as a point of principle.

I am pleased to say that I am not one of those people. I believe we have come a long way since 1997, thanks in large part to the persistence of Donald Dewar and others. I sense that the Government’s decision to withhold retained EU powers in Whitehall is not an anti-devolution stance, but instead one of the clearest indications yet that the Government are just not coping with the task of Brexit. The Government simply have not had the ministerial headspace—or, as Alan Milburn said, the bandwidth—to engage with the consequences of Brexit for the established, yet still young, devolution settlements now in place.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I completely agree with the point my hon. Friend is making so eloquently. Does the news from Brussels in the last few minutes about the complexity of the negotiations not show that the Bill, and the whole process of Brexit, will have far greater consequences for our country, not just for the economy but our whole constitutional settlement and the way we run our affairs here in these islands? The very serious consequences needed to have been much more clearly thought through by the Government.

[Jenny Chapman]

I encourage Ministers to listen very carefully to what my hon. Friend says. Like me, he has a deep concern about what clause 11 may mean for the devolved Administrations. We watch with alarm the statements being made today. We hope the position is clarified very quickly.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend refers to Donald Dewar. The basis for the devolution process came about via referendums in Scotland, Wales and both parts of Ireland to agree the frameworks under which we now operate. Is it therefore not a contempt, an insult, to the people as a whole—not just this House—for the Government to undermine the Good Friday agreement and the devolution settlement, which was endorsed by the people in referendums?

[Jenny Chapman]

My hon. Friend is right. People voted for these powers to be devolved and it is wrong for the Government to attempt to use Brexit as an excuse to bring them back to London.

The historian Professor Tom Devine called Scottish devolution and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament

“the most significant development in Scottish political history since the union of 1707.”

The Conservative party may have been opposed to devolution in the 1990s, and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Administrations may not have been conceived of in the early ’70s, but they are now an important and respected integral part of the constitutional architecture of our country.

The Good Friday agreement could never have succeeded without devolution to Northern Ireland, and, in the view of many of those involved at that time, the fact that devolution to Scotland and Wales took place at the same time as the Good Friday negotiations helped to ease some misgivings about the process.

Two nations of our Union voted to remain in the EU and two voted to leave. Our nations are run by different parties with different views about what Britain should look like after Brexit. The challenge for the Government therefore is significant. Just because it is challenging, however, does not mean the Government should attempt to take shortcuts that undermine the credibility, autonomy or sharing of decision making that are now an accepted feature of our democracy.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for all her work on the Bill. Is she surprised, as I am, that the 12 new Scottish Conservative Members of Parliament were sent here by the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson, under the banner of standing up for Scotland, yet it appears that, with regards to the Bill and these clauses, all they will be standing up for is the Government Whips Office?

[Jenny Chapman]

We will have to wait until later this evening to see which Lobby they choose to walk through. I, like my hon. Friend, was encouraged by some of the comments from Ruth Davidson and her hopes for the new group of Conservative Tory MPs, but we shall see if they live up to the billing she has given them.

Whether they want to or not, the Government must adapt to the very different constitutional circumstances that now exist. They are very different from those that existed before 1973. Clause 11, which is intolerable to the devolved Administrations, sets it as the default that powers currently exercised in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast within EU frameworks will be ripped away and held in London. First Ministers are calling this a Whitehall power grab.

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making a passionate speech, but does she accept that powers are not being ripped away, given that they are not there for the devolved Administrations at the moment? [Interruption.] Whether hon. Members think it right or not, as a matter of law those powers are vested in the EU, so if they come back to the devolved Administrations, they will be additional powers. Powers are not being taken away.

[Jenny Chapman]

I think that the hon. and learned Lady has not—if I may be polite—quite grasped what we are talking about. We are talking about a framework, within which the devolved Administrations currently make decisions, that is held now at the EU level. Our desire is for a UK framework that enables those decisions to continue to be made by the devolved Administrations. It is very different from saying, as I anticipate some Government Back Benchers will claim, “Well, the powers are currently held in Brussels, so why is everybody so worried about it?” Actually, the decision making is held in Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that in Wales devolution actually came in two tranches—in 1997, but also in 2011, when Wales voted overwhelmingly for full law-making powers—and that any rolling back of those powers would be simply unacceptable and anti-Welsh in the extreme?

[Jenny Chapman]

I would never wish to be accused of being anti-Welsh.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is talking about the UK framework and the devolved Administrations. Would she care to comment on the quite astonishing scenes we have witnessed today? It is apparent that the Government have not spoken to the Northern Ireland First Minister about what should happen with respect to any deal. If we are to have special arrangements—or special alignment—between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, what is wrong with giving the whole UK that special alignment? It is called all of us staying in the customs union.

[Jenny Chapman]

My hon. Friend is highlighting the alarm with which we are witnessing the statements coming out today—the confusion, the briefing, the counter-briefing—and with which we contemplate the destabilisation, particularly in Northern Ireland, that could result. We are deeply concerned about it. I will resist making any specific comment until we have a much clearer picture of the situation, but I am sure that every Member will want to ensure that the negotiations proceed this week and that there is a clearer outcome. The Prime Minister has asked for that to happen at the end of the week. We are expecting a full statement tomorrow, and we look forward to it. I am sure that some very serious questions will be asked of the Prime Minister tomorrow about the conduct of the negotiations.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Is there not a really important point that the Government seem to forget? When they are negotiating about a border, or no border, or about divergence from or convergence with a regulatory framework on the island of Ireland, they must speak to the First Minister of Wales as well, because the vast majority of the exports from Ireland into the rest of the European Union go through Wales. There is no point in coming up with a Bill that simply ignores the devolved Administrations.

[Jenny Chapman]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the fact that the Government seem to have acted in a rather high-handed way with all the devolved Administrations on a matter that is so fundamental to the future of the citizens of this country.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). The other border between the United Kingdom and Ireland is the one that passes through Holyhead and Fishguard. When I asked the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, in the Select Committee, what consideration he had given to the position in Holyhead in particular—given the chaotic road across the island, the two insubstantial bridges, and the extra traffic from the proposed Wylfa B power station—his answer he gave was very clear: “None.”

[Jenny Chapman]

That is shocking. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues from Wales will continue to make the point as the debate proceeds. Needless to say, the Government’s attitude has been most concerning to me and to First Ministers, because it suggests that they are not interested in the needs and ambitions of the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That approach is regrettable, but it is not too late to change it.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Just last week, senior border immigration officials told the Home Affairs Committee that the implications for the Welsh ports of Holyhead, Fishguard and Pembroke, which other Members have mentioned, are very serious in practical terms unless we remain in the customs union, for instance. That underlines the point that my hon. Friend is making about proper frameworks, the Joint Ministerial Committee and so on, and the points made in the new clauses and amendments.

[Jenny Chapman]

I could not agree more.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

The hon. Lady is making a persuasive speech. She mentioned the renowned Scottish historian Sir Tom Devine. He, of course, has made the journey from being a supporter of devolution to being a supporter of independence. Does the hon. Lady agree that if the Bill is allowed to drive a coach and horses through the current devolution settlement, a great many more Scots are likely to follow Sir Tom Devine by becoming supporters of independence rather than devolution?

[Jenny Chapman]

I sincerely hope that that will not be the outcome, but I have to admire the hon. and learned Lady’s ability to spot an opportunity and take it.

The Government have never argued that these powers need to be in London or that they intend to hold on to them permanently. Rather, it seems that they feel that tackling the undoubted complexities of considering how to make new arrangements with the devolved Administrations post Brexit belongs in the “too difficult” pile—something to be put off until there is more time and there are fewer distractions. However, there are no time limits on when the Government will cease to hoard the powers. While the hard-line Brexiteers on the Back Benches are promised a time and date—to the very nanosecond—for when they will see powers returned from Brussels, the nations of our Union are told to wait indefinitely. The people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland deserve better from the Government.

The Government agree with Labour and the devolved Administrations that frameworks are needed—I think—and new clause 64 assists them by outlining how that can be achieved. The presumption should be that powers remain devolved as is the case now, and that UK frameworks are created to co-ordinate policy in some areas through negotiation with the devolved Administrations. To do anything else would turn back the clock on devolution—impossible—and cause untold damage to important relationships between Parliaments.

As well as having the motivation and attention to address this issue, the Government need to trust the devolved Administrations. That is why our proposal makes explicit the obligations on each Government and the nature of the frameworks needed. So far, the Government have not exactly shone in their endeavour to develop a UK-wide approach to Brexit, so new clause 65 helps by putting the Joint Ministerial Committee on a statutory footing.

It is important to reflect on the absence of representation from Northern Ireland on the JMC. The suspension of the Executive is deeply regrettable, and permits the neglect of the needs, concerns, ambitions and hopes of the people of Northern Ireland. Their voices must not go unheard at this most critical of moments, but need to be amplified, as it is they who have the most to lose from a chaotic departure from the EU.

[Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con)]

I am following the hon. Lady’s speech carefully. I am also looking very carefully at her new clause, but I do not see how it would resolve the question of what would happen if we set up joint structures and there was disagreement about how they will work. It can, of course, be argued that the Parliament of the United Kingdom is ultimately sovereign, so I think that it is a matter of law that if there is a disagreement, the logjam would ultimately be resolved by this Parliament and the Government in Whitehall having primacy. The question the hon. Lady has to answer is whether the structure she is putting forward would be workable in practice, or if it would just lead to conflict.

[Jenny Chapman]

The new clause is not intended to cause conflict—we already have a certain degree of conflict between the Administrations—but, rather, to remove that conflict, and to provide a mechanism by which issues can be resolved. Hearteningly, the JMC seems to have started to function rather better than it did when we last went around this particular issue. It has issued statements that explain how it wants these frameworks to be established, so it does not seem to be too much of a leap to write that into the Bill.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will probably remember our attempt to put the JMC on a statutory footing when we considered the article 50 Bill, but this time the Brexit negotiations are upon us. The Government have lost their majority since our last attempt, so I encourage Ministers to take a more conciliatory approach this time. New clauses 64 and 65 would force the Government to respect both the devolution of decisions, and those who are responsible for taking the decisions.

[Ian Murray]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the JMC should be producing communiqués that give the public and this House slightly more information? The communiqué published on 16 October merely stated the attendees and apologies, and concluded:

“Ministers noted the positive progress being made on consideration of common frameworks”.

Does my hon. Friend agree that we need slightly more information?

[Jenny Chapman]

I hope that Ministers are listening and taking note.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Do the Welsh First Minister, and indeed the Welsh Cabinet Secretary for these matters, agree with the wording of new clause 64? Given their public comments, I think they would find it very difficult to agree totally with its current drafting.

[Jenny Chapman]

My understanding is that the answer is yes. We have not worked alone on this—we have worked together with the devolved Administrations—so I am slightly surprised by that question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is angling for something. Is he trying to extract something from this that I am unaware of?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The plight of the First Minister has always been that new UK frameworks have to be made collaboratively in a partnership of equals. The new clause seems to suggest that this would be a matter determined by Westminster, in negotiation with the devolved Governments, but that is a totally different thing.

[Jenny Chapman]

The intention is that the frameworks would be achieved collaboratively. That is precisely what we are trying to achieve. It is, of course, a matter for the hon. Gentleman if he is trying to force a wedge between me and my hon. Friends and the First Minister, but I do not think he is going to be successful.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

On the point about conflict that was raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), it seems to be the way in which the Bill has been structured that creates the conflict. The Government could have done this differently. They could have said, “You can have all the powers back and we will hold a veto.” The question is about getting agreement on the frameworks when they are necessary. The two new clauses to which my hon. Friend is speaking seem to me—and, I am sure, to many people—to set out a really practical way of bringing the two sides together to get those agreements. That is the route by which we will find a way through this problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jenny Chapman]

That is absolutely the approach that we have tried to take. We are trying to be practical, realistic and respectful, and to work collaboratively with the devolved Administrations.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Will the hon. Lady give way on that point?

[Jenny Chapman]

I believe that the hon. Gentleman is sincere that his intervention will be on that point.

[Pete Wishart]

Perhaps the hon. Lady requires a note from elsewhere to say that this is not one of the amendments brought forward by the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government. In fact, the new clause says something entirely different. It states that “Ministers of the Crown” would “create UK-wide frameworks”. The Welsh and Scottish Governments want this to be a combined process that involves all the parties.

[Jenny Chapman]

I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I think he is dancing on the head of a pin. We want the creation of the frameworks to be done collaboratively by the devolved Administrations and the Government.

[Joanna Cherry]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Jenny Chapman]

I have already given way quite a lot. If the hon. and learned Lady does not mind, I am going to crack on now. She will have a chance to make her own speech, and I look forward to listening to it.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

rose—

[Jenny Chapman]

I will give way one last time, to the former Minister.

[Mr Jones]

Pursuing the same point, does the hon. Lady not accept that new clause 64(3), having provided that there should be no new frameworks created without the agreement of the devolved Administrations, would be a recipe for chaos, on the basis that if there were no such agreement, it would be impossible to create the frameworks that she seems to acknowledge as so desirable?

[Jenny Chapman]

The Joint Ministerial Committee said that it wanted frameworks to be created in this way, I think at the time when the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister, so I really do not understand what his objection is today.

We need look no further than Wales to learn of the practical benefits of devolution. It is right that Cardiff should decide the best way to support farmers in Wales, within an agreed framework but according to their needs and priorities. Jobs Growth Wales has so far supported the employment of 17,000 young people using European funding. That decision would not have been possible if the arrangements proposed by the Government had been in place at the time. When I was first elected, the Tories and the Lib Dems scrapped the almost identical future jobs fund in 2010. Such decisions were devolved for good reason, and we will support the devolved Administrations in keeping them. Amendments 42 and 337, alongside new clause 64, would allow the Government until the end of the transitional arrangements to create UK frameworks.

I want to make it clear to the Minister that in tabling these new clauses and amendments, Labour is attempting to assist the Government by enabling the devolved Administrations to be engaged in decisions that have a direct impact on their people. If the Government accept our criticisms and proposed improvements, Ministers will find that they have a less turbulent time in the months ahead. Do the Government really think that it is wise to pass a Bill to which the devolved Administrations are so hostile? Ministers need to focus on negotiating the best possible deal for all the people of the UK, not on embroiling themselves in constitutional rows with Edinburgh and Cardiff.

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[Stephen Kerr]

Yes, and that is no surprise, because I sit on the Conservative side—the Government side—of the House of Commons. I believe and trust in the Government. I believe that Ministers will deliver on a settlement. I do not know why that is such a surprise to Opposition Members.

[Jenny Chapman]

The hon. Gentleman has told his Front-Bench colleagues that he will vote with the Government this evening but, should the Bill return unamended in this House, what would be his inclination on Third Reading?

[Stephen Kerr]

In common with other colleagues who have spoken today, I expect there to be amendments, and when those amendments come to the House in due course, it will be because everyone involved in this process, including the UK Government and the devolved Administrations—the Scottish Government are my immediate interest—will have put on an adult head because there is so much at stake for our country. I happen to think that one of the most positive contributing factors to the change of climate has been the Scottish Affairs Committee’s excellent report, which is a step in the right direction.

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[Chris Skidmore]

We have been working closely with the devolved Administrations on these questions and will continue to do so, progressing the discussions and the necessary analysis of where common approaches are and are not needed, through ongoing bilateral and multilateral discussions between Ministers and officials.

In an excellent speech, my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) highlighted the important progress that was made at the recent JMC (EN) meeting on 16 October, when the UK Government, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government agreed to a set of principles to identify where we will need frameworks. Given the myth busting that needs to take place around the JMC (EN) process and given how open and transparent it already is, it may be appropriate to quote from a communiqué regarding an agreement by all the devolved Governments and the First Secretary of State on the definition and principles of the common frameworks. It states:

“As the UK leaves the European Union, the Government of the United Kingdom and the devolved administrations agree to work together to establish common approaches in some areas that are currently governed by EU law, but that are otherwise within areas of competence of the devolved administrations or legislatures. A framework will set out a common UK, or GB, approach and how it will be operated and governed. This may consist of common goals, minimum or maximum standards, harmonisation, limits on action, or mutual recognition, depending on the policy area and the objectives being pursued. Frameworks may be implemented by legislation, by executive action, by memorandums of understanding, or by other means depending on the context in which the framework is intended to operate.”

The communiqué then goes on to set out some important principles for where common frameworks

“will be established where they are necessary in order to: enable the functioning of the UK internal market, while acknowledging policy divergence; ensure compliance with international obligations”.

[Jenny Chapman]

I may be able to save the Minister a job here. New clause 64 includes what he is reading out, word for word. Given that he supports the principles, is he not inclined to accept new clause 64?

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[John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP)]

I rise to support the amendments in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends and to oppose clause 11. I have sat here since 3 o’clock, and I have been to the toilet once, nearly equalling Mr Speaker’s record, so he is obviously having an influence on my ability to hold in my water.

As a member of the Environmental Audit Committee, I want to discuss my concerns about clause 11 and Scotland’s environmental laws. Since Scotland gained a devolved Parliament, the political conversation on the divergence of policies has in many cases become diametrically opposite to the policies here in Westminster. I have always believed that, if someone wants to change the world, they have to get busy in their own little corner. The Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament have done and are doing just that, and they are backed by the people of Scotland in trying to come up with more policies to improve social wellbeing and social mobility. A better community means that a better community spirit can be established, but if the present Tory Government stand in the way of our targets, aims and aspirations, do not think for one minute that the Scottish people will take that lying down—they will not.

The Scottish Government have steadily improved their environmental policies, which have been praised by a variety of academics and recognised by various politicians from other countries, who have commented positively on Scotland’s aims and ambitions. During a trip by the Environmental Audit Committee to Washington earlier this year, the president of one of the universities that we visited could not speak highly enough of the Scottish Government and all their chemical policies, and I want the Labour party and the Conservative party to remember that. The Scottish Government have provided certainty of policy on environmental issues and that policy sits at the top of the tree. Investors like that. Investors who believe in corporate responsibility like that. Investors in people and businesses who see the positive social impact that good, sustainable policies deliver to all parts of the community like that. Expert commentators like that. Most importantly, our people—the Scottish people—like that, and it is the right thing to do. That is why it is so important that we as a country protect our carefully thought-out policies—our devolved policies.

I want to give some examples of comments about our policies that have been given to the Environmental Audit Committee. Professor Holgate, who is an expert on the health effects of poor air quality, said:

“Scotland is taking a lead in this area… Scotland has been able to… keep the relationships between the public, health and local authorities intact. In this country”—

England—

“they have drifted apart”.

He praised the Scottish Government’s approach to tackling poor air quality and their adoption of World Health Organisation guidelines on fine particulates into law—the first country in Europe to do so. He challenged England to raise the bar—I like that. Do we need to protect these policies? Yes, we do.

We simply must not get soil health wrong. Sir Peter Melchett and David Thompson attended our Committee. During their evidence, David Thompson said:

“The Scottish Government…have a statutory requirement to produce a land use strategy under their Climate Change Act, which is not the case for the rest of the country.”

Sir Peter Melchett said that the Scottish Government were looking at the science of soil protection 15 years ago and that the science is linking more closely in Scotland than he has

“ever seen happen in England.”

I like that. Sir Peter Melchett and David Thompson are educated, knowledgeable people. Do we need to protect that policy? Yes, we do.

I will now get a wee bit into the crux of the matter, the re-reservation of powers and the possible threat to Scotland’s environment. Emma Barton, the Royal Yachting Association’s planning and environmental manager, and Professor Carolyn Roberts, vice-president of the Institution of Environmental Sciences, both appeared before the Environmental Audit Committee. When I asked them about marine protection zones, Emma Barton said:

“As far as I am concerned we have had a…positive experience in Scotland… I don’t have any particular concerns…in Scotland.”

When I asked Professor Roberts about the possible post-Brexit danger that devolved Administrations would be forced to take things they do not want, such as genetically modified crops or fracking, her answer was yes. Again, I pressed her on whether these powers could be taken back, and she said, yes, of course they could.

The complexity of working out exactly what the devolved Administrations can and cannot do will mean that every legal decision they make in areas touched by European legislation will be open to challenge at UK level. Effectively, this could turn them into paper Parliaments whose decisions could be overturned by anyone with the resources to launch a case at the UK Supreme Court. The Scottish Government agree that common frameworks are needed to guide many legislative areas across the UK post-Brexit, but the frameworks need to be agreed, not imposed.

My last quote is from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who was sitting in the Chamber earlier. He has said that he had his own “Damascus moment” on environmental issues, which I welcome, but he raised eyebrows at the EAC in November with his answers on devolved matters. He promised to clarify his position, which he has done by way of a letter to the Committee. Or has he? The letter said:

“In particular, we will explore with the devolved administrations whether they wish to take a different or similar approach. We have been clear throughout that we respect the devolution settlements, that we expect more powers to be devolved and that no decisions which the devolved administrations currently make will be taken from them.”

Consider that. I repeat it:

“no decisions which the devolved administrations currently make will be taken from them.”

Post-Brexit, will the Government honour the Environment Secretary’s statement and make the temporary position permanent?

[Jenny Chapman]

After eight hours of debate, during which I lost count of the number of contributions, I do not think I heard a single speaker on either side say that there was not an issue with clause 11. The Minister seems to accept that it has some deficiency, yet after eight hours he will not say what he thinks it is or how he intends to remedy it. He has not seen fit to accept a single amendment or new clause put before him today, despite saying he welcomes reasonable, practical contributions. For that reason, I shall seek to put new clause 64 and amendment 42 to the vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.