Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am very conscious of being the first speaker at this stage of a Bill which has been so widely welcomed, and which so many people, outside and inside the House, are ambitious to amend—or maybe I should say expand.

There are some niggles, but I do not think that any noble Lord is planning to oppose any clause standing part of the Bill. That is very unusual. Often, giving notice of an intention to oppose a clause standing part is not to signal opposition but to probe or interrogate the Government on what lies behind the printed words or how the Government intend them to be fulfilled. The Bill has been a long time in the making, so the Government have had a lot of time to refine it.

This is not the moment for a Second Reading speech—Committee is the stage at which we are workmanlike—but I want to make one general point, which is to thank all the organisations and individuals who have contacted us and informed our thinking. Their hard work and determination are impressive. We will be anxious to do justice to them, but I fear that it will not be possible to credit them by name. Nevertheless, I hope they appreciate that we appreciate that this is a collaborative effort, in which they are partners.

My noble friends Lady Burt and Lord Paddick are on the Front Bench for this Bill but, by chance, I have the privilege of moving the first amendment. I should declare what I regard as interests, because they certainly affect how I think about the issues. For many years, although some time ago, I was a board member and then chair of Refuge. I am currently a member of the board of Safer London, whose work with children and young people can mean addressing family and other personal connections, including working with young people to help them understand what good relationships are.

So, to Amendment 1. There has been debate about the abuse of children but this amendment is not about that. The focus of the Bill is the abuse of partners, and we now have Clause 3, which concerns the impact on children who witness that abuse.

I have from time to time heard reports of abuse by children of adult relations. One would hope that ways outside legislation would be used to deal with such behaviours, but I would be grateful if the Minister could explain to the Committee how the Government regard, for instance, violence or threats of violence by a 13 year-old towards his mother or grandmother. A teenager living in the same household as a grandparent could be in a position to extract money or valuable items from the grandparent. Noble Lords can imagine various reasons: how this might be prompted by a need for drugs, or to get money for a gang, as gang members often regard their gang as their family. We want to ensure that the Bill is comprehensive, and the intention behind the amendment is to ask why it applies only when both individuals are 16 or over.

I realise that it is necessary, in proposing a change to the scope of a Bill, in a non-technical sense, that one should ask oneself: what follows? Should it be a protection order or qualifying for statutory support? Nothing is achieved by extending the categories of people to whom the Bill applies simply as an expression of concern without also considering what is achieved in practice, although it may help us all to understand how other, existing, legislation covers their situations. This is a probing amendment. I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as listed in the register. I listened with great interest to the noble Baroness’s explanation of this first amendment. I bring to the House a different situation that in my view is covered by the amendment, but which the noble Baroness has not put forward. Like many of the groups I am involved with, I am very opposed to marriage under the age of 18. There is no doubt that a number of teenage marriages involve domestic abuse. It is important to recognise that, in such marriages, those under 18 are as much at risk as anyone else. Later, I will deal through amendments of my own with a situation I am particularly concerned about: young people both under and over 18 who are forced by coercive control or physical abuse into an unwanted marriage that they—she, generally, but sometimes he—do not want to enter. That is why I want to raise this issue as perhaps another probing part of the amendment: to recognise this group of young people aged under 18.

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lady Hamwee, I restate my interests in respect of this Bill. Noble Lords will recall the story of the farmyard animals that come up with the idea of rewarding the farmer with an egg and bacon breakfast, to which the pig responds to the chickens, “I’d be committed to this; you’d only be involved.” As a former police officer who dealt with countless cases of domestic abuse during my service, and as a survivor of domestic abuse myself, I very much feel like the pig when it comes to this Bill.

Amendment 1 questions why both perpetrator and victim have to be 16 or over. We understand that, if the victim is under 16, the offence would be child abuse rather than domestic abuse, but not if the perpetrator is under 16 and the victim over 16. For me, the acid test is whether someone is being placed in the intolerable position of not feeling safe in their own home as the result of the abuse. As my noble friend Lady Hamwee has described, this might be the result of the actions of someone who is under 16—elder abuse of a grandmother by a grandchild, for example.

The Minister will acknowledge that increasingly younger children are becoming involved in county lines drug dealing. One of the many worrying aspects of county lines is how children are becoming violent towards their own family members at home as they become embroiled in the savage and ruthless culture of drug gangs, particularly when they are challenged about their behaviour by a parent or guardian. My noble friend described the amendment as probing. On reflection, I believe that it may become increasingly necessary. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

I beg your Lordships to support these amendments. If we are to put a stop to this evil of parental alienation—and surely we must—it cannot happen until the right legislative framework is in place. The casualties are too many; there are fathers, mothers and children who are damaged forever and those who kill themselves. I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, first, I want to apologise for my intervention on Amendment 1, which was quite inappropriate. I stupidly misunderstood, and I apologise.

I support Amendments 2 and 4. False allegations, of the severity of which the noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, has spoken, are abusive to the other parent, who is the victim—and, of course, they have extremely adverse effects on the children. As a former family judge, I found those cases not only very serious but distressing. In some, it was impossible to achieve an outcome of a relationship between the child and the parent whom the child had been taught to loathe, despise and have nothing to do with. It was very distressing.

It is important, however, to recognise that these are a minority of cases. It is equally important to recognise, as the noble Baroness said, that they can be used as a defence against genuine allegations of domestic abuse. I got an email this morning setting out how a woman had clearly been abused but the man kept telling the court that it was parental alienation and he was not prepared to accept that he had been guilty of abuse.

In the majority of cases, the reason for non-contact or limited contact between a parent and their child should be the implications of domestic abuse. It is important, however, to leave discretion over contact and looking at parental alienation to the judges. The judicial college might consider whether for some judges, at some levels—not the High Court—there is adequate judicial training in this complicated subject. A little more time might be spent teaching magistrates, district judges and circuit judges a little more about it.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on introducing the Bill, which is designed to help victims of domestic abuse across the country with comprehensive measures that introduce enhanced protections against, and recognition of the suffering of victims of, many forms of abusive behaviour. I support the aims of the Bill and, alongside many victims, eagerly await its introduction.

I rise to speak to Amendments 2 and 4, to which I have added my name. It is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and I thank my noble friends on the Front Bench for engaging with us on this issue. I hope we may continue discussions before Report.

The Bill’s first four clauses provide a broad definition of domestic abuse and concentrate on behaviour rather than definitions or syndromes. These amendments were excellently introduced by my noble friend Lady Meyer. The whole Committee must have been moved by her explanation of the way this issue has impacted on her. Clause 1(3) identifies psychological, emotional and other abuse but does not mention the behaviour described in these amendments, which we call alienation or, specifically here, parental alienation. If children are used as a weapon by an abusive parent against another parent and the wider family, this is surely domestic abuse and belongs in the Bill.

A network of leading international and UK experts in several professional fields, after consultation with other professionals and stakeholders involved with parental alienation and child psychological abuse, have produced a paper which we are happy to share with interested noble Lords. It concludes that parental alienation is most readily described as a range of behaviours and is not a syndrome, as some people like to call it. It is both child abuse and domestic abuse, but not a diagnostic label, which supports our aims of identifying it in the Bill.

Parental alienation has been confirmed by Cafcass as being both child abuse and domestic abuse, involving clear coercing and controlling behaviour. Fathers, mothers and other family members can be perpetrators and victims, but the children are always the victims. In its helpful briefing to Peers, Cafcass explains that parental alienation is a description of an array of behaviours, processes and outcomes when a child’s resistance or hostility towards one parent is not justified and is the result of psychological manipulation through a range of abusive behaviours by the other parent.

I recognise that there is controversy surrounding this issue, which saddens me. My noble friend Lady Meyer dealt with a number of the issues that have concerned us, including what appears rather a one-sided assessment of the case against parental alienation. Of course, it is possible that abusive fathers will use this in the context of family courts to commit further abuse against a mother trying to protect her children, but the Bill is about domestic abuse; fears of allegations being falsely made are inherent in much legislation yet surely cannot be a reason to decline to legislate.

Responsible legislators must not be biased in favour of one group or another but should be mindful of the broad sweep of issues that need to be considered. Even if there are egregious examples of women being abused by this kind of alienation, there are many men, and children and wider families, who also need protection against this abuse. It is important that each allegation is carefully examined by the court at an early stage. Sometimes, there is both psychological abuse by alienation and physical or sexual abuse in the same family. But there is a lack of reliable evidence—as opposed to anecdotes by parents who may regard court decisions wrong—that men or women are more likely to raise false allegations, or that courts systemically prefer fathers or mothers. Therefore, what is relevant, and beneficial to the Bill, is to require proper exploration of alienating behaviours, so that these can be observed by mental health professionals, together with family judges and lawyers across the UK in identifying cases where parental alienation or alienating behaviours have occurred.

I agree with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that it would be helpful to have enhanced judicial training to identify and understand these behaviours, but it is essential that qualified professionals assist the court with assessing whether there is this type of abuse and identifying problems of alienation at an early stage, before the psychological impact becomes ingrained in children and does dreadful long-term damage, which has been described as being associated with this issue. I hope we may discuss this further with other noble Lords and the ministerial team to make progress on this matter for Report.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

6: Clause 2, page 2, line 27, at end insert “or if one is the guardian of the other.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 6, 8, 9 and 14, in my name, and support Amendment 10, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge. Having listened with great interest to what the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and others said in the previous group of amendments, I make the point that what I will talk about affects a lot of people from a considerable number of communities.

Amendment 6 is quite short. It deals with the possibility of not being related but being a guardian. It refers to teenage marriages in a forced marriage situation, since some young people may be abused by their guardian rather than someone to whom they are related.

However, Amendment 8 is more important, and it has two parts. First, it concerns those “in a forced marriage”. I put that in despite the fact that there is legislation on forced marriages and, if there is domestic abuse, the question of whether the person being abused is in a forced marriage may not make a great deal of difference. It is really a question of awareness. Secondly, and more importantly, it addresses situations where

“one person is forcing the other into a forced marriage with another person.”

This happens to young women and men, both under and over the age of 18, across a considerable number of communities: ultra-Orthodox Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, Travellers, Hindus and others. The abuse is generally coercive: the abuser says to the young person, “You are to marry the person we have chosen”. Gay men are particularly at risk because, if it is known that a young man is gay, the family is particularly anxious that he should marry.

What is particularly worrying is that the abuse is not necessarily just coercive. It can become physical and there are instances, if the girl has said that she does not want to marry the man chosen by the family, it is seen as a shame or blot upon the family, and they kill her—a case of so-called “honour abuse” or “honour violence”. I saw actual examples of such extreme cases when I was a judge, and they go on today.

This is extremely concerning because it is domestic abuse, not between spouses or partners but within the family. It is very important that forced marriage is well understood, despite the legislation, because there is no widespread recognition that forced marriage can be, and often is, a part of domestic abuse. The reference to “a forced marriage” applies not only to ultra-Orthodox Jewish families but others where the wife is unable to end the marriage. This happens in a number of communities.

Amendment 9 deals not with forced marriage but modern slavery, an issue with which I am also very much involved. Under the Modern Slavery Act 2015, women who are in domestic servitude are seen as slaves, but what is happening is also domestic abuse; it may not be between those who are married, partners or related but women who come into this country, very often to work for a family, and are treated abominably. They are physically, and sometimes sexually, abused, which is domestic abuse and requires to be understood.

Amendment 10, the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, addresses those who are not related or spouses but may be living in the same household and need, none the less, to be taken into account as part of the group who are domestic abusers.

Amendment 14 deals with children and a specific, rather important, gap in Clause 3. At the moment, the Bill deals with people related to, or personally connected with, each other. What it does not deal with is the fairly frequent situation in which the mother of a child or children has a number of successive partners. Those partners may either live with her in the same household or visit regularly, but not live in the household. They can equally well, and undoubtedly do, abuse the woman to the detriment of the children. It is an extremely worrying situation. As a judge, I have heard endless cases where a woman has been abused by a man who has been visiting her every day for several hours and has taken the opportunity to treat her very badly. The children, of course, have either witnessed it or been in the next room, cowering and not knowing whether they will also be abused.

It is very important that forced marriage and modern slavery, particularly forced marriage, are recognised as coming within the definition of domestic abuse. Although the legislation is there, as I have said, it does not cover these situations. It particularly does not cover the fact that the agencies do not seem to know about it. It is for that reason that I urge that these amendments be recognised and I hope they will become part of the Bill. I beg to move Amendment 6.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am speaking to Amendment 7, which would ensure that a carer of a person with disabilities is included in the definition of “personally connected”, together with Amendment 12, which inserts the term “provider of care.” This means any person who provides ongoing emotional, psychological or physical support to another, with the aim of enabling that person to live independently, whether or not they are paid for this support. Clause 2 gives a definition of “personally connected”, including those who are or have been married or in an intimate relationship. On the definition of “personally connected”, the Bill should reflect the realities of all domestic abuse victims who need to be able to access services, justice and support. No victim should be left behind.

These amendments would ensure that “personally connected” also covers a person’s relationship with their carer, paid or unpaid. This is to reflect the lived experience of disabled victims of domestic abuse, where a significant personal relationship in their life is with the person who provides care. This is a Bill for all victims, and we believe that this would help ensure that disabled victims are represented in this legislation. We have heard the Government say that the abuse of disabled people by their carers is already covered by existing legislation. Indeed, Section 42 of the Care Act 2014 places such a duty on local authorities. However, this Bill is for all victims of domestic violence and it is flagship legislation. It should not be that disabled victims have to be provided for elsewhere.

The unamended clause does not recognise the lived experiences of disabled victims of domestic abuse, who are among the most vulnerable. It is abuse that often goes unnoticed. Disabled victims are more likely to experience domestic abuse for a longer period: 3.3 years on average compared with 2.3 years for non-disabled victims. The Bill should make it easier for disabled victims of domestic abuse to be recognised. Therefore, there has to be an understanding and acceptance of the reality of disabled lives. Significant relationships can be different from those of a non-disabled person with an unpaid carer.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)]

Finally, I call the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to respond to the debate on her amendment.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

I thank everybody who has played a part in this quite long debate. I have learned a great deal from what so many people have said. Because it has taken nearly two hours, I propose—much to my regret, but perhaps to the pleasure of everyone else in the Committee—not to reply to any of the points that have been made, save two. I also thank the Minister, although I am disappointed, but not surprised, by his response to my amendments.

My first point, which was also made by the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, is that although a great many bits of the Modern Slavery Act had been in other legislation, it was thought a good idea to have an umbrella Act that would cover all those aspects. Nobody took the point that they were actually also found elsewhere. With this landmark Bill—as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has called it—I really do not see why we cannot adopt the same process as we adopted with the Modern Slavery Act.