Public Order Act 1986: Section 5

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Let me put it this way. If a potential offence—which threats to kill are—is made, the police have a duty to investigate and, if the offence proves to have validity, to take action, to prepare a case, to go to the CPS and to take potential conviction action where the court will determine whether the allegation the noble Lord has made is correct. The individual concerned is appealing. I cannot comment on the appeal; Members of this House would not expect me to comment on either the conviction to date or the potential appeal. I say to the noble Lord that, if offences are potentially being committed, it is the duty of the police to investigate and take action. I will leave it—if he will let me, in a freedom of speech way—at that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

What is the view of the Government about incidents logged by the police which do not in fact create crimes?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We are in discussion with the police, the College of Policing and the Chief Constables’ Council on the very issue the noble and learned Baroness raises. That has come out of a number of cases since the general election which have been brought to our attention, where we believe the police should be taking action to investigate crimes. But they should also be proportionate in what they do in relation to the way in which that crime is brought to their attention and make a decision on that. I have been clear at this Dispatch Box on several occasions that the police need to examine the approach to those non-crime hate incidents very clearly. I believe the police will be doing so and issuing guidance in due course.

Police: Stop and Search

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is important there is training in the use of stop and search by police officers and that it is updated. It is important that the outcomes of stop and searches are monitored for both the impacts, which the noble Lord mentioned earlier, and to see whether racial disparities are taking place. Those should be fed back to both the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs’ Council. This is why the National Police Chiefs’ Council is issuing and regularly updating information on the race action plan, both monitoring it and examining its impact.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

There is plenty of time for both questions if noble Lords are quick.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister was talking about increased numbers of police. Are the Government supportive of neighbourhood policing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We are so supportive of neighbourhood policing that we have put an extra £1 billion into that fund this year. We are employing around an extra 3,000 neighbourhood police this year and will employ 13,000 more over the course of this Parliament.

Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls: Funding

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is extremely important that those who need that help and support get it. It is one reason why we have continued the work of the previous Government in funding a national helpline on violence against women and girls, which includes help and support for victims of honour-based violence as well. There are always improvements that can be made and, as part of the development of the strategy, we will be looking at what is most effective over those 10 years to ensure that we help and support victims, that we reduce the number of perpetrators and that those who have been convicted of perpetrating these offences are supported by the Ministry of Justice to turn their lives around when they come out of prison. The noble Baroness makes some valid points, but I hope she will examine the strategy in detail when it is published.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Is the Home Office discussing with the Department for Education what sort of training is being given in schools, particularly to boys?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will certainly look at that for the noble and learned Baroness. Again, I am accountable for this area, but the direct responsibility is with my colleague Jess Phillips. I will raise that with her to see what discussions are going on, but the noble and learned Baroness can rest assured that the strategy we are bringing forward on violence against women and girls is a cross-government strategy, to which all departments are contributing. I will examine the specific responsibilities of the DfE and get back to the noble and learned Baroness.

Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I spent almost all my legal and judicial life on child sexual abuse and child physical abuse, and I chaired the Cleveland child abuse inquiry. I agree entirely with what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, has said and with much of what the Minister has said. I suggest to the Government that now is not the moment to have a full statutory inquiry. What is crucial is to have the recommendations of all the earlier inquiries implemented as quickly as possible. A statutory inquiry at this moment—whether we need it later is another matter—would impede the Government from getting on with what needs to be done.

I was lucky because many of my recommendations were actually accepted, but one of the shocking aspects of our endless statutory inquiries is that that is unusual. We have a history across this country of statutory and other inquiries with endless excellent recommendations, almost none of which are taken up. This is the moment—on a subject of excruciating importance, where there are so many victims across the country—to see that something is done, not talked about.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

Refugees (Family Reunion) Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 17th January 2025 Lords Chamber

I support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, in so far as they are an alternative to mine. Having said all that, I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I ask the noble Lord, who I think has also put forward Amendment 14, whether children who have been formally adopted are contained within the Immigration Rules?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Appendix FM, as I understand it—although I would have to check—does allow for an application to be considered by the Home Office in respect of a formally adopted child. But I am sure the Minister can confirm, or otherwise, in relation to that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

No. The previous Government actually encouraged the small boats. They encouraged people to come by routes that were not safe.

The Green Party supports this Bill. It is time to remove the barriers so that desperate children can be reunited with their families in safety.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I declare that I—along with Fiona Mactaggart, then an MP—wrote a report on children in northern France, Calais and Dunkirk some years ago. I find this whole group of amendments to the Bill extremely sad.

I want to concentrate on a legal issue, which I raise to some extent with the noble Lord, Lord Murray. I was certainly not an immigration lawyer but, as far as I understand the Immigration Rules, civil partners, who come up in Amendment 13, and adopted children, who come up in Amendment 14—both are referred to in Clause 1(5)—are already within the Immigration Rules. Consequently, if the noble Lord and the noble Baroness are right, they are trying to reduce the Immigration Rules, not increase them.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, I was unable to attend Second Reading, but I have come in today especially because this debate is a very interesting one. I say to those who really want to hear a well-argued and well-reasoned debate that it is the convention of this House that, when someone seeks to intervene with a point and they ask the speaker to give way, that person should be heard. It is very sad to see the tone of this debate.

Regulated and Other Activities (Mandatory Reporting of Child Sexual Abuse) Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 17th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, this Bill raises a crucial issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is absolutely right to pursue it, despite the promises of the Government that at some point they will bring in legislation that will deal with it. The question is when? As noble Lords have already said, this issue is urgent; it does not need to wait for a thought process for months or more than that.

I bitterly regret not remaining as chairman of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. However, I had burning family issues that meant I could not do it. I have always will felt very guilty that I did not carry it out, though I probably would not have done as good a job as Alexis Jay.

I did an inquiry, the Cleveland child abuse inquiry, and wrote a report in 1988. The noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, was absolutely right, because there are false allegations. Having been a practitioner and a judge for many years, both trying such cases and acting for parties, I discovered that there were false allegations and some of them came through my court.

We need to remember, as has already been said, that it is not only girls but also boys and babies. I have had a significant number of cases of babies being sexually abused—it is horrifying but not unusual. One has to bear in mind that these cases take place within the family, by family members and by outsiders. That is important. However, the large majority of cases are within the family. I was twice a school governor, of a boys’ school and a girls’ school, where I was responsible for pastoral care. In each school, I discussed with the head teacher whether allegations being made should be pursued. That is not easy for the head teacher of a school.

One of the important aspects of having mandatory reporting by agencies is that it should give encouragement to other ordinary people to bring these issues up, such as other members of the family, neighbours, people going to the school, or other people who recognise that a child is not doing well and are worried about that child. If we have mandatory reporting, as we should have, we ought to have an awareness campaign that it is going on and there should be encouragement for people to report, particularly neighbours. We have had a very recent example in the press where the neighbours were concerned about a little girl of 10, Sara Sharif, and they did not do anything. They quite properly would have been right to have gone to someone in authority and said “Look, we’re concerned about what’s happening”. So this is extremely important.

I hope that the Government realise that this cannot wait—I am sure they do; they have the best of intentions—and I ask them to support this Bill.

Immigration: Human Rights

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, for that question. He will know from previous discussions and debates on the issue of unaccompanied children that we have identified that around 90 children have gone missing. It is the priority of the Government to find out where they are. The prime responsibility for their safeguarding initially fell on Kent County Council. It is an important issue and one we need to address. As part of future considerations, we will continue to do that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

When looking at refugees, could the Minister include victims of modern slavery with positive decisions and those who are victims of forced marriage? I declare an interest in the register.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness makes an extremely important point. Victims of modern slavery should be central to any policy determination. This Government will support the efforts of the previous Government and the previous Home Secretary—who is now a Member of this House, the noble Baroness, Lady May of Maidenhead—who introduced what is now the Modern Slavery Act. We will ensure that those rights are upheld and that victims of modern slavery have that aspect of their lives taken into consideration when their asylum or refugee status is considered.

Police Officers: Recruitment

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Home Office is looking at police support staff as neighbourhood police, because they do not get moved every two years?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is important that we have stability. Very often, when I was a Member of Parliament, the police chief in the local area would be in post for two years and he or she would either retire or would be promoted and go up the ladder. We need to have some stability. Part of the purpose of neighbourhood policing is to try to get stability and local intelligence, including from police support staff on the ground.

Respect Orders and Anti-social Behaviour

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the Government are undertaking a review of non-crime hate incidences. There are two aspects to this: a number of reports are made that are very low level and potentially waste police time, but there is also the importance of gathering intelligence. That goes back to the noble Baroness’s point: sometimes intelligence can be gathered through a non-crime hate incident that leads to a wider strategy to deal with a particular policing incident. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has been clear that the College of Policing and the chief constables council need to review non-crime hate incidents to make sure that those at the lower level do not lead to police, with their limited resources, having to deal with issues that perhaps they should not be dealing with.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, in which type of courts will respect orders be heard? Whichever type it is, will additional days be provided, because every court is overburdened?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I expect these cases to be heard in magistrate’s courts, but again, those issues can be tested in Committee. The Bill will be considered in this House in Committee for a significant period, having been considered first by the House of Commons. That is why we are trialling respect orders, and we will put a number of pilots in place if the legislation is passed. The lessons learned from that will be considered —how long it takes to deal with a respect order, which court it goes to, the length of the trial period we put in place and what resources are required to deal with it.

Asylum Seekers: Hotel Accommodation

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I reassure my noble friend that the Government have a proud role in accepting people with legitimate asylum claims. The key question, which relates to the questions from both Opposition Front-Bench spokespeople, is about the speed and efficiency, and the prevention of illegal entry where there is no asylum claim. The Government will take that on board and I will certainly take away the point that my noble friend mentions. I will look at whether we have figures and facts on children being used and accommodated in that way. If she will let me, I will report back to her and place any letter in the Library of the House.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing about getting rid of those who should not be here?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can help the noble and learned Baroness on that point. Between 5 July and 28 October this year, which is the only time that I can account for as Minister, the Government have returned 9,400 people who have no right to be here. Of those 9,400 returned, 2,590 were enforced returns, which is a 19% increase on when the noble Lord, Lord Murray, held this post not 12 months ago.