Football Governance Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

As usual, my noble friend makes a sensible and accurate point. There is a big difference between a club such as Arsenal, which has several hundred full-time employees, and a club such as Ebbsfleet, which I think has five. The problem is that one will have a gap between pulling down the Premier League clubs by damaging investment and pulling up other leagues, which are going to aspire to the best in terms of professional support but will not have the resources so to do. That is the difficulty that the Bill imposes on those clubs.

It will be a big question as to whether the clubs in the smaller leagues will be able to afford the new compliance, risk and legal officers who will be, of necessity, required to comply with the responsibilities outlined in the Bill. The Minister has repeated time and again that the aim of the Bill is to improve the financial sustainability of football clubs. Yet, the Government’s solution is to slap these clubs with more costs. The shadow regulator should have been invited to the meeting because if the strategic objective of the Government is to drive growth, this is the wrong way of doing it. I am mindful of the time.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

With respect, I draw the noble Lord’s attention to the time.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I know we have had a busy and eventful seven weeks and we are almost there, if the noble Baroness will allow me just to finish. The Employment Rights Bill is coming down the line, which will be an extra cost to businesses of perhaps up to £5 billion a year. These are all issues that the Government have not taken into account. It is absolutely right and proper for us to make the reasonable request for the Government to look at the impact in the real world of these compliance costs, and I hope that the Minister is able to come forward with better news when we get to Report.

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[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, an exceptionally important point was made about UEFA not being shy in coming forward. Indeed, we know that, as a result of UEFA representations, the Bill in its original form was changed. If it had such an influence, it is not unreasonable to ask to see a copy of the letter, which is clearly far beyond private correspondence. It is of public interest.

I return to the question that I put on 19 December, when I asked whether it was the Government’s intention

“to seek assurances from UEFA that the introduction of backstop powers to the proposed Football Regulator does not impact on the autonomy and independence of football’s governance as required by UEFA.”

The response was interesting:

“As set out during the House of Lords Committee Stage debate on 18 December, UEFA raised no concerns about the backstop in its most recent meetings with DCMS and the Minister for Sport”.


It does not refer to the letter. Therefore, can the Minister kindly confirm to the Committee this evening that there was no reference to the backstop in the UEFA correspondence? This was of such significance that, in its first introduction into the Committee proceedings, the Minister’s response to the Committee was that publishing the debate around the letter would worry the facts. That was the position. It was not the letter: it was the debate we were having around the letter.

I have just one very simple question, and then I will be much relieved if the answer is as I assume it will be, in the light of the answer given by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross: that

“UEFA raised no concerns about the backstop in its most recent meetings with DCMS and the Minister of Sport.”

Can the Minister confirm that it did not raise the backstop in the correspondence it had with the DCMS, or raise any concerns referring to the backstop?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I will start by responding to the amendments put down in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, in this group, and I would like to thank him accordingly. We have not spent a great deal of time talking about some of the implications of the amendments, so I would just like to draw attention to those. The reason we will not be supporting Amendment 336 and the others in this group is that the changes put forward would severely hinder the setting up of the regulator and its ability to achieve its objectives as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

I emphasise again that my noble friend the Minister has stated that the Government have worked closely with and consulted with UEFA, FIFA and the FA throughout the development of this Bill and will continue to work with them as it progresses through Parliament, as indeed will the regulator once it is legally established, including through the FA’s observer role on the regulator’s board. This will ensure that no powers or potential actions taken by the regulator would be in breach of its own rules.

All I can say tonight is that we have debated this issue extensively on a number of occasions, and as my noble friend the Minister has set out previously, we are working with the relevant authorities to give noble Lords the reassurance they seek on the specific concerns regarding UEFA and FIFA statutes, ahead of Report. My response to the repeated requests about the letter has to be, again, that it is private correspondence and the Government do not share private correspondence with international organisations.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The noble Baroness asserts that it is private. Have the Government asked UEFA whether it has any objection to sharing this letter with the rest of us?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I cannot respond to that point, so apologies for that.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

Will the Minister write to me and put the letter in the Library?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I shall certainly take away the noble Lord’s comments, and I repeat the response that I have had from the department in terms of the letter we have received.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. She knows that I admire her greatly, not least as a fellow Leeds supporter. The question is very simple. Would the Government be prepared to write to UEFA to ask its permission for the letter to be published?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

All I can say, again, is that I shall certainly take that point back. I will not answer that point at the Dispatch Box tonight, but the views have been made very clearly by Members in the Chamber.

I shall move on to the other amendments. If the Secretary of State does not have the flexibility required to determine what the regulator’s powers are when they are commenced, this could lead to delays, confusion and inefficiency through the process of set-up.

The noble Lord, Lord Markham, has referred quite a few times to unintended consequences, which is something the amendments in his name could well lead to. As we all know, the commencement of legislation is a crucial and in many ways delicate process, and it will require careful co-ordination between the department and the regulator to ensure that the provisions are switched on at all times. With those changes, the regulator would likely not be able to make any progress at all with the set-up. Similarly, the delays that this change would cause would be likely to have an impact on areas such as the “state of the game” report, a necessary and vital report that the regulator will need to carry out as soon as possible.

Furthermore, we would have all the regulator’s staff on taxpayers’ money at this point, given that the levy would not yet be up and running, so they would be unable to work. That would mean that a longer period would have to be funded by the taxpayer, until it was recouped. I am sure that the noble Lord agrees that that would not be good use of money. For the reasons I have laid out, I am unable to accept the noble Lord’s amendments, and I hope that he can withdraw his lead amendment.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and I thank the Minister. I think there was a shared view, bar the Minister, that there is an opportunity here to clear this up. It has been going on all the way through, and I must admit that, the more ducking and diving, obfuscation and avoidance there is, the more suspicious I become. We have a new reason today: for the first time, we are told that it is going to hamper the speed of setting up the regulator. The last time I looked, having a meeting with someone takes half a day or a day. It is going to cost a lot more to set it up. I am afraid that that just does not add up. Why do we not ask now? We do not need to wait until Royal Assent—why do we not show them what we are going to go through on Report? The Bill has not even gone through the Commons yet, so we could do this in parallel and it would not need to delay anything. I am sorry, but that does not really wash as a reason. That brings me back to the point that the only reason not to come clean about it all is that there is something they are trying to hide.

The other new reason is that the letter is private. The question rightly asked by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is whether we have asked UEFA whether it is private and whether it is willing to provide that letter. I feel sorry for the noble Baroness at this point, because maybe it was felt that this was one of the quieter parts of the Bill to take over from her fellow Minister. That was a bit of a hospital pass. But they do not even want to say whether they are willing to ask UEFA whether the letter is private. It is very clear: we can find out by asking whether UEFA does not want it to be published—that is a very quick question—or are the Government trying to stop it being published?

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[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I basically agree. There is a break at the end of the season. Most organised team sports change their rules and regulations in that break if they are going to do so. It might not need to be in the Bill, but it might be a Pepper v Hart type case; I say that timorously in view of the company I am keeping. If the Government can give us some indication that they will make major changes in the off-season, when players are exhausted and structural changes can be made—that is basically what it is for—then I would be happy because it is quite a sensible principle.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for tabling the amendment and other noble Lords for their comments. I will go through the reasons why we will not support the amendment. We understand that its intention is to avoid any burdens or disruptions for clubs that might be associated with mid-season licensing. This includes the risk, albeit remote, that licenses are refused mid-season.

However, the amendment would mean that the entirety of Part 3 could not be commenced until the off-season. For example, it could affect the ability of clubs to prepare and submit their applications early. If the regulator became operational mid-season, it could mean waiting for as long as eight or nine months before it could even begin to license clubs. We do not think this is right. Clubs should be able to prepare and, if they so wish, submit their applications early to avoid the regulator having to deal with a rush of 116 applications in the relatively short window between seasons.

Ultimately, if the Secretary of State does not have the flexibility required to determine when the regulator’s powers commence, it could lead to delays, confusion and inefficiency throughout the set-up process. We are, of course, prepared to continue the fruitful conversations we have already have and I look forward to more of them. Although I recognise the amendment’s helpful intent, I am unable to accept it. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw it.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Addington, for their support. I was hoping that the noble Baroness would say that this is just a very sensible, practical solution. I hope that the Ministers feel able to reflect on it at this stage, because it is a very practical step to make sure we can implement this correctly and not impact clubs mid-season. I am happy to withdraw at this stage.