Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 199 in my name, which complements Amendment 193, which was so effectively introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Young, and which I have also signed.

Amendment 199 would require the Government to publish and fund a comprehensive communications plan for the smoke-free generation policy. We have referred to the wealth of experience among us when it comes to implementing tobacco control measures: a number of those who are taking part in today’s discussion were involved in the 2007 smoke-free legislation, the subsequent rise in the age of sale and the introduction of plain packaging in 2016. We worked across parties. There are valuable lessons to be learned from how those policies were implemented.

The 2007 campaign for smoke-free indoor public places was, in many ways, the gold standard for large-scale public health communication. Its clear and consistent message—needed, wanted and workable—underpinned every aspect of that campaign. Early identification of those at risk of non-compliance ensured smooth implementation and effective enforcement. Government-led TV adverts made it absolutely clear that it was the Government, not the hospitality sector, who were informing the public of the changes. Venues and public spaces were equipped with the resources, signage and materials that they needed well in advance of implementation. The result was 98% compliance from day one. Public support was strong and the legislation was practically self-enforcing. Even the noble Lords who put what I see as the weakening amendments at the beginning of this debate said how well that had gone.

Crucially, the debate surrounding that policy also raised awareness of the harms of smoking and led to an increase in people’s attempts to seek to quit smoking. That is precisely the outcome we should be aiming for with this legislation. Although the rising age of sale will apply only to those born in or after 2009, this policy presents a significant opportunity to raise the profile of smoking-cessation services and to invite everyone to be part of this smoke-free generation.

I have tabled this amendment to ensure that the Government publish a clear and ambitious communications plan to achieve that. At its heart must be strong public health messaging, which is inclusive, evidence based and backed by a dedicated budget. Next year’s October campaign, which seeks to encourage smokers to stop, should be led by the Department of Health, sending a clear message that every smoker can join a smoke-free future. Now, this annual campaign is led by stakeholders, with little input from the department. This should change.

The communications around the disposable vapes ban were clearly ineffective. That was a Defra policy, but it published guidance only for businesses; there was nothing at all for the healthcare settings that use these products in smoking cessation. The Government will need to do better. I am sure that the Chief Medical Officer is aware of that, not least through his experience of Covid. There are in this Committee various people, not all on the same side, who have a lot of public affairs experience. I would love them to put their minds and experience to this; that would be really worth while.

A well-structured plan would also ensure that retailers are engaged early on, provided with concise materials, signage and briefing materials and supported to play their crucial role in this policy’s success. Engagement should be broad, involving local authorities, trading standards, the NHS and higher and further education. Such proactive collaboration would, as in 2007, reduce the need for enforcement by fostering widespread understanding and voluntary compliance. Obviously, such a communications plan needs robust monitoring, evaluation and engagement. Some noble Lords have already expressed concern about the novel nature of this policy; I hope this proposal demonstrates how the Government can provide reassurance through clarity, transparency and careful planning. The UK has a vibrant creative sector. Let us harness that in an ambitious and effective public information campaign, as happened with the 2007 ban on smoking in public places.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, we are running out of time. If we want to finish the group, we will have to finish by 8 pm—otherwise, we will have to break midway through. It is up to noble Lords whether they want to keep their comments to a minimum so that we can finish this group.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to Amendment 193, to which my name is added. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for explaining its aim so well. I also support Amendment 4 from the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and declare an interest as president of the LGA and chair of Sport Wales.

With my background in sport, I know that there has been a lot of nudge behaviour in stopping smoking. Some really good work has been done in Wales on smoke-free sport, and the Football Association of Wales has done work on banning smoking around youth games. However, this does not go far enough. I must apologise, as I am working on this and the Infrastructure and Planning Bill, and I have just come out of a debate on how to ensure that we have good physical activity and improve the health of the nation. The adverse impact of smoking on the health of the nation is partly why I am speaking on this Bill.

I am slightly surprised by some of the briefings that I have received, which seem to be more content with vaping than I expected. I am constantly told that it is much better than smoking, but it is hardly healthy. I have never smoked or vaped, so I probably do not come at it with the fervour of a reformed smoker, but I believe that a great deal of harm has been done by smoking and vaping. I shall discuss some of that in later groups. While smoking cessation services have gone some way, they do not go far enough. This amendment is part of a concerted effort to move forward. The way to do it is through a new clause that very clearly lays out the road map so that we can move towards a smoke-free United Kingdom.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I have a great sympathy for this group of amendments introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. There should be a limit on the strength of nicotine products which are legally for sale. Some of those products are clearly, from what we have heard from other noble Lords, very dangerous to both physical and mental health. The evidence is emerging on that.

Limiting the strength of something is not a new idea. Strength limits and price controls have been put on various alcoholic drinks, such as white cider, which has been particularly responsible for problem drinking. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, I am concerned about nicotine pouches and young people, because their packaging and flavours make them look like sweets, making them appear very attractive to children. I accept that only a small percentage of tobacco product users buy this form of tobacco product, but a high proportion of those users are young people.

There is not much evidence yet of the effectiveness of such pouches as a smoking quitting tool; they are nowhere near as effective as nicotine patches or vapes. Apparently, only about 3% of quitting efforts are based on them. In fact, you do not need a high concentration for these things to work; nicotine patches work for many users, and they are not particularly strong. However, there are clear dangers with these very strong products. Perhaps this is an area where we need further evidence, so can the Minister say whether it will be covered in the Government’s recent call for further evidence on measures in the Bill? Before we go forward to the next stage, perhaps we could get the results of that consultation.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for raising these points and for bringing forward the amendments to Committee today. Listening to Finn’s story from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, it is important that we always bear in mind that we are talking about real young people and children and the actual harms that can come to them.

Amendments 13, 14, 15, 139 and 140 seek to introduce a ban on manufacture, sale and possession with intent to supply high-strength oral nicotine products, specifically those containing more than 20 milligrams of nicotine per portion. I say from the outset that we are sympathetic to noble Lords trying to define the correct and safe nicotine level of a nicotine pouch—we need to address that. As we have heard, unlike with nicotine vapes, there is currently no set nicotine limit for nicotine pouches, and nicotine strengths can be as high as 150 milligrams, with the harm that goes with that. There is also significant variation in these strengths internationally.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, as I understand it, following the Royal Assent of this Bill, there will be more consultations on many of the regulations the Government plan to bring forward. The call for evidence, which was published on 8 October, is already seeking evidence on some of the more technical aspects of the Bill.

I point out to those who tabled these amendments that the UK Government are a signatory to Article 5.3 of the WHO’s Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, which aims to protect health policy-making from tobacco industry influence. That is why I think that there should be no further mandation for consultation with those who have a vested interest in producing or selling tobacco products, as long as we keep an eye on small retailers. As far as the bulk of their sales of products containing tobacco—I choose the way I express it very carefully—are concerned, there will be a small impact because only a one-year cohort at a time, which is a relatively small amount, will be prevented from being sold these products. As I said on our previous day in Committee, that will give small retailers plenty of time to adjust their sales models. We will deal with things such as age verification, as well as other issues that may cause small retailers concern, in our debates on other groups; we must do that rigorously.

I point out that there is nothing to stop tobacco companies responding to past and current government consultations on proposed regulations, but, of course, all respondents are required under the WHO convention to be transparent about their direct or indirect industry links. This is appropriate given their commercial conflicts of interest, which are sometimes in direct conflict with the Government’s public health objective to eliminate smoking over a generation.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for these amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. Amendments 26, 27, 31, 56, 111, 150 to 153 and 213 seek to ensure that the views of consumers, businesses and retailers are captured as part of the consultations on the licensing scheme and the display regulations, as well as before Part 5 of the Bill comes into force.

Let me start by saying I strongly agree with the intention behind the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. When it comes to consulting on the regulations, of course we must ensure that those who will be impacted are able to contribute their views. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her constructive comments on the need to do that and on the way we will go forward.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, and the Minister for her response. With these probing amendments, we were trying to make sure that the consultation was as wide as possible. We completely understand the WHO requirements, but we sometimes worry about some of the more specialist cigar manufacturers, which are not big tobacco but much smaller specialist organisations.

I seek some clarity from the Government at this point. Are they saying that the WHO guidelines mean that they cannot speak to these small, specialist manufacturers? We understand not consulting the big Philip Morris Internationals of this world, and others, but is it the Government’s understanding that they cannot speak to the small specialist cigar manufacturers because WHO guidelines preclude them from doing so? Or are they saying that they can speak to those small manufacturers?

Clarification on that from the Minister would be welcome. Is she able to give an answer, or shall I witter on a bit and hope that the officials can give her an answer in that time? I will do that; I am trying to be helpful. That clarity is essential. I am not asking that they call in the likes of the big firms, such as BAT and Philip Morris, every time they want to do a consultation; we know what their business models are. This really is about the small specialist manufacturers who feel that they are excluded and lumped in with big tobacco all the time. Their demographic is very different. It is an ageing demographic; perhaps literally a dying demographic —who knows?

The newspaper that came to see me told me that its readership was not consulted even though their trade associations claimed that everything was fine. Therefore, we need to understand those nuances. In my experience, I have seen some trade associations claiming to represent a wider membership than they do. They are not the ones who are damaged.

I welcome the sentiment behind the noble Baroness’s response. I had a conversation with the Minister only yesterday about a particular organisation not feeling that it had been consulted. Immediately, she said, “Let’s meet with that organisation”, so I recognise the sentiment. However, I would like that clarification now if it is available.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

We require all those with links, direct or otherwise, to the tobacco industry to disclose them when answering consultations. I hope that is the clarification that the noble Lord requires.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Just to understand, they can be consulted—that sounds reasonable; I do not think anyone would say otherwise. It is important that they do not hide where they are from.

If there are organisations that have written to me about this in the past and I have had conversations with them, I am sure that the Minister will be open to having conversations where appropriate. With those reassurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Amendment 28 not moved.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I am at the mercy of the Committee, but we have some more time and the ability to go on until 5.15 pm. If noble Lords agree, we have one more group to do to get to the target. Shall we continue?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Mott is not here to move Amendment 29 and has obviously not sent a substitute to speak on his behalf. What is the procedure from here?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

I suggest that the Committee adjourns.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

No, it was clearly advertised that the amendment was part of the target, so I suggest that it is not moved.

Clause 16: Prohibition of retail sales of tobacco products etc in England without a licence

Amendment 29 not moved.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 3rd November 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, just to clarify on the previous group and to quote myself, I advised caution about the idea of combining the two kinds of licences, specifically because of the strong possibility of fundamental change to the remit of the alcohol licences.

On this group of amendments beginning with Amendment 32 in the names the noble Lord, Lord Kamal and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, it is important that the Government do not delay unduly in laying out the details of the new licensing scheme. That is only fair to retailers who need to respond to it. However, it is also important to get it right, and it is a highly technical issue. There will be a lot of noise about the workability of elements of this Bill without adding to that by getting the licensing scheme wrong, and I am sure the Government are aware of that. However, I am also aware that the Government have already issued a further call for evidence on the technicalities of the scheme, which I hope will help them to iron out any problems. I hope that they do not hang about over this, as they did with putting the Bill into your Lordships’ Committee—which we awaited with bated breath; it took a long time—but I do not support rushing such a technical process. Therefore, I do not support putting these amendments with their specific timescales on the face of the Bill. I look forward to the consultation.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the amendments in this group.

I note the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, that the noble Lord, Lord Mott, is not in his place to speak to his amendments, but I will just touch on them briefly, if I may. Basically, his amendments seek to require licensing regulations to be made within three months of the relevant provisions in the Bill coming into force. The amendments would also extend the existing retailer register in Northern Ireland. I emphasise that, of course, the Government share the noble Lord’s desire to move as quickly as possible to implement the licensing scheme. That is why we have recently launched the call for evidence on the range of issues that we have laid out, including questions on the design of the retail licensing scheme. The feedback received will be absolutely critical, and we want to get on and launch this as soon as possible. However, it is also important that the Government have sufficient time to ensure that the regulations are properly thought through. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Mott, when he hears the discussion, will be reassured and understand that three months is not sufficient time to run a consultation, analyse the feedback received and prepare well-considered regulations. That is as much as I shall say on his amendments.

Turning to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, I hope to give him the reassurance that he seeks, as we discussed in last week’s Committee, that I understand these particular concerns. His amendments would similarly require Ministers to publish draft regulations implementing a retail licensing scheme for England and Wales within six months of the Bill achieving Royal Assent.  The Government are committed to ensuring that those impacted by regulations and those with expertise have the opportunity to contribute their views. We want to minimise additional costs and burdens as far as possible, while ensuring that the scheme is a success and achieves our aims of supporting legitimate businesses as well as tackling those that disregard the law.  Again, the recently published call for evidence seeks input on a range of topics, including the implementation of the retail licensing scheme. As I have said, this will inform the consultation, which we will launch as soon as possible.

To respond directly to the noble Lord’s comments, our call for evidence also asks about the implementation of the scheme and how long will be required to implement the policy. We will, of course, work through the appropriate channels to ensure that businesses have the necessary guidance to implement the changes. I cannot emphasise enough that this is for all businesses, regardless of their size or the organisations that represent them. We want to make sure that we get that message out loud and clear, so that they have confidence that their views will be regarded with the same importance as all those who contribute to the policy.

I note the noble Baroness’s comments about making sure that we get this right, so we cannot be beholden to specific timeframes on the face of the Bill. We all acknowledge that this is a complex policy and, while we want to move swiftly, it is important that there is enough time to ensure that the policy is properly thought through before developing regulations. I repeat that requiring the Government to publish draft regulations before adequate consultation may risk creating a flawed policy. For the reasons that I have outlined, bringing together previous comments, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and to all noble Lords who spoke in the debate on this group of amendments. The intention was always that these would be probing amendments; whether it was three months, as from my noble friend Lord Mott, or six months, as from us, we wanted to get some certainty and find out whether, at this stage, any thought has been given to an outline timetable. This is so that the retailers that will have to face this new licensing regime can understand the different stages—the Minister laid out some of the consultation stages—and the overall timetable. Here we are, getting towards the end of the 2025, and they are wondering, “When will this new licensing regime be in place? Will it be sometime in 2026 or in 2027?” That is the sort of outline assurance they want.

It was very helpful of the Minister to mention some of the consultation stages, but it would also be helpful if, perhaps in writing, she could give us a timetable that relates to real dates in the next two or three years—and, in doing so, avoid “in due course” or “as soon as possible”—so as to reduce the uncertainty for those retailers that will have to prepare for this measure. I also welcome the acknowledgement from the Minister of the importance of consulting small retailers—that point has already been made in our debates on previous groups—as well as her understanding of the role that these small retailers play. The burden for them is very different and disproportionate as compared to that for some of the larger retailers.

In general, we welcome the tone from the Government and understand that there must be consultation stages. However, we are asking for some sort of outline timetable in writing, if possible, on when the Government envisage the licensing regime being in place—with the usual caveats, perhaps, depending on what comes back from the consultation. Some certainty would be really welcome at this stage.

Having said that, and having reflected on the comments from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe.

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Given the parlous state of the finances of some of our local authorities—some, such as Birmingham City Council and Woking Borough Council, had to go into administration, in 2023—it is clearly a reasonable precaution to ensure that these vital services are protected. According to local authorities themselves and an authoritative note from the House of Commons Library from July 2024, this is because all local authorities are under financial pressure due to rising populations, housing pressures, higher demand on social care and the limit above which they cannot raise council tax. In the light of the possibility that many other local authorities may have these financial pressures, I believe that Clause 35 et cetera are necessary precautions.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, in responding to these comments from the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I am grateful for the opportunity to explain further the clauses relating to enforcement powers, which I think is what he is seeking from these amendments, and to look at the opposition from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, that Clauses 35, 36, 129 and 30 stand part of the Bill.

Clause 35 provides a power for the Secretary of State in England or Welsh Ministers in Wales to carry out the investigation and enforcement of a particular case or a particular type of case instead of local authority trading standards. Similarly, Clause 36 provides a power for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to take over the conduct of any legal proceedings relating to an offence under Part 1 or under any regulations made under Clauses 13 or 14 regarding the display of products or prices. Clauses 129 and 130 serve a similar purpose in relation to Part 6, which makes provisions on advertising and sponsorship. Clause 129 provides a power for the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers, Scottish Ministers or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to make a direction about the enforcement of the Part 6 provisions. Clause 130 provides a power for the appropriate national authority to take over the conduct of any legal proceedings within their respective jurisdictions relating to an offence under this part of the Bill.

These clauses replace and are based on existing legislation. Trading standards operate in all local authorities, and it is standard practice that they would undertake required local enforcement action and pursue legal proceedings. However—this is referring to the comments made by the noble Earl—these powers provide a useful safeguard for the unlikely situation in which a local authority is unable or unwilling to take enforcement in a particular case. These powers reflect the landscape in which tobacco control measures operate. Individual local authority trading standards departments might not have the resources or willingness to take enforcement action and legal proceedings in cases where this action involves or has significant implications for large multinational companies. In instances such as these, these powers may be used to ensure consistent, strong and effective enforcement.

The noble Earl raised the devolved Administrations. Health is a devolved matter and the Bill builds on the existing legal frameworks of all four of the nations. This means that there are some differences in the provisions between each nation. I think we have outlined how the accountability of these powers will be managed through the different existing arrangements.

The noble Earl also raised the specific matter of scrutiny. I hope I have covered the points throughout the comments that I have made.

I hope noble Lords are reassured that these are necessary clauses based on existing legislation. Together they ensure effective enforcement and therefore should stand part of this Bill.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, the purpose of a clause stand part debate at this stage of the Bill is to ask some questions. There is no implication that the clause should be deleted. I simply wanted to ask those questions and to ensure that some answers are placed on the record, and I am very grateful to the Minister for doing just that.

I welcome her explanatory comments; it is right, in the light of what she said, that Ministers should have the tools they need to ensure effective enforcement where the public interest demands it. However, I remain concerned that the powers set out in these clauses are unqualified, and I would like to think about that further. I recognise that it is possible to conceive of circumstances where ministerial intervention might be justified—for example, where a case raises genuine national issues or where there has been a manifest failure to act for whatever reason. However, that is precisely why I felt some form of conditionality ought to be built into the legislation.

I appreciate that there is precedent for provisions of this kind, and I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. Between now and Report, I will consider whether the Bill could be improved with the addition of some clear thresholds, safeguards or procedural tests. For now, I am content to move to the next group of amendments.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 17th November 2025 Grand Committee

Amendment 180 not moved.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, clearly, we have failed to reach the target in this session. I just want to reassure noble Lords that provision has been made for an additional session. The timing of that will be discussed in and conveyed through the usual channels.

Committee adjourned at 7.39 pm.