Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly in support of Amendment 14 and reiterate the question of why there may be inconsistent definitions of storage in the Bill.

In my time exploring carbon capture and storage over the years, I have become somewhat cynical about its ability to scale. The sheer cost of it and the presence of alternatives that may be cheaper and more secure mean that its role will be relatively limited. I am sure that it will play a role, but only if we enable it to be pursued in its widest possible senses. It is absolutely the case that you can store large volumes of carbon dioxide underground; we have aquifers and other underground storage facilities that could be used for this, including in the North Sea and on land, and we should explore those where they make sense. However, there are other mechanisms through which you can enable the use of other stored forms of carbon. Novel techniques are coming to market now involving plasma torches, which, applied to natural gas streams, deliver pure streams of hydrogen plus black carbon. That black carbon can then be used as a manufacturing commodity. Therefore, it would be foolish of us not to include that as a potential option. Similarly, CO₂ is used as a binding agent in the production of building materials. In fact, currently the CO₂ has to be bought at an extortionate rate, so using pure waste streams of CO₂ for the production of building materials will again be a permanent form of storage and it should be supported in the Bill. I fully support this amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I want briefly to reinforce the comments that have already been made. I wish to speak particularly in favour of Amendment 9, on the duty to assist in delivering net zero, and to Amendments 14, 15, 16 and 19; as has been argued clearly, having a consistent definition of storage throughout the Bill makes total sense.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I am very sceptical about the claims made about carbon capture and storage. Often, we see it used as a “get out of jail free” card: “We’ve got all the numbers and they don’t add up. We’ll just throw in a figure for carbon capture and storage to allow us to continue as we are”. That is clearly unviable. None the less, it makes a lot of sense to grab carbon emissions wherever they occur and use them in a constructive way.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly, having attached my name to Amendment 23 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie—who, of course, by the nature of these structures has not yet spoken on it—and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds. I attached my name only to Amendment 23 but Amendments 27 and 35 form something of a package; they all express concern about requiring regulation so that licences must be only

“granted to fit and proper persons”.

As I was contemplating these amendments, I thought of the Oral Question earlier today in which my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb took part, which looked at the situation we have now with the water companies in the UK. There is an obvious parallel with the crucial nature of the water companies and their fit and proper behaviour—and, without reopening that debate, their use of resources et cetera. If we are to go forward with carbon capture and storage at scale, it is obviously crucial that it is absolutely trustworthy and reliable, including in financial terms. We are talking about long-term investments for which we need real stability and certainty. The other parallel that occurred to me in contemplating this group was what happened with carbon offsetting—a phrase that has a bad odour in many parts of the world where we have seen a great deal of cowboy behaviour and many problems occurring.

Putting in this explicit “fit and proper persons” test, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, explained, is drawn from the National Security and Investment Act, is a very good parallel. If we are to securely store this carbon for the long term, in a manner that means the state does not have to step in to try to clean up a mess left by a private company, this is one way of attempting to ensure that that happens.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to contribute on this set of amendments. I add my admiration and support for my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who has stepped into the breach admirably in the unfortunate absence of my noble friend Lady Liddell. I very much look forward to her return. I also add my thanks to the Minister for giving us time today to discuss this very important Bill; I think all of us recognise its significance at this time. Without reopening the debate from Second Reading, it is clear to us all that there are gaps. We need to take the opportunity to fill those gaps, given the state of crisis that the country is entering.

I want to speak to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Lennie, starting with Amendments 21 and 22. They seek to make it clear that a licence can be granted for transportation or storage, or both if wanted, but that a licence need not be granted for everything. The activities that Clause 7 relates to are

“(a) operating a site for the disposal of carbon dioxide by way of geological storage; (b) providing a service of transporting carbon dioxide by a licensable means of transportation”.

We have to acknowledge the importance of this section of the Bill. Indeed, the Climate Change Committee has referred to all of this area as a necessity, not an option, particularly as we move forward and technologies improve. As drafted, the Bill provides a single licence for both but, given that they are separate activities, we see no reason why individual licences could not be provided for each activity—even if it may be the case that most of the persons carrying out these activities carry out both.

A broad portfolio of technologies is needed to achieve deep emissions reductions, practically and cost effectively; carbon capture and storage is just one of them. In the International Energy Agency’s sustainable development scenario, in which

“global CO₂ emissions from the energy sector fall to zero on a net basis by 2070”

carbon capture and storage

“accounts for nearly 15% of the cumulative reduction in emissions, compared with the Stated Policies Scenario. The contribution grows over time as the technology improves, costs fall and cheaper abatement options in some sectors are exhausted. In 2070, 10.4 Gt of CO2 is captured from across the energy sector”.

This would provide more flexibility for a developing market, with the intention of driving down price within it.

We have already heard just how expensive carbon capture is and how, despite its importance for achieving clean energy, it has been rather slow to take off. According to the IEA, there were only around 20 commercial operations worldwide midway through last year. Commentators often cite carbon capture as being too expensive and unable to compete with wind and solar, given their falling costs over the last decade, but to dismiss the technology on cost grounds would be to ignore its unique strengths, its competitiveness in key sectors and its potential to enter the mainstream of low-carbon solutions. I am pleased that the Government have not done this. However, as we have made clear, we feel that not enough attention has been given to solar and onshore wind, in particular. It is important that we take whatever steps we can to make the market as attractive as possible and encourage licensing from fit and proper persons.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has already spoken to the next set of amendments, particularly Amendment 23. We feel that the phrase “fit and proper”, having already had a usage in the National Security and Investment Act, is something that we should take very seriously. The aim of these amendments is to put the responsibility on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual fit and proper.

Perhaps the greatest concern that we have to acknowledge is the environmental risk associated with long-term storage of captured CO_2, as any gradual or catastrophic leakage would likely negate the initial environmental benefits of capturing and storing CO₂ emissions. It is worth itemising those key risks, just so that we have them on record. First, there are technical hazards: we know that the construction of plants needed to capture and process CO₂ can be complex. Whether for new facilities or retrofitting and enabling the separation of CO₂ from other gases, there are inherent technical exposures in the CO₂ separation process relating to the compression and cooling of gases flying through pipes and the use of chemical solvents, for instance.

Secondly, on fire and explosion, as we know, there are lifting, handling and accidental damage risks at carbon capture plants, as is the case at any construction site. When carbon-capture technology is retrofitted to operate in industrial plants or facilities in typically high-hazard locations such as power stations, the risk of accidental damage and subsequent fire and explosion risks to existing assets might be enhanced. As I have stated, the risk of leakage must clearly be the subject of much consideration as we go forward.

Business interruption is another risk that we have to acknowledge in the failure to meet the carbon goals as they are laid out. Pure carbon dioxide gas can be compressed so that it reaches its dense and supercritical phase. In some cases, it can instead be cooled, which transforms it into a liquid state. Mechanical failures or breakdowns affecting this stage of the process could lead to lengthy business interruptions for clients. If the captured CO₂ cannot be transported, this may affect the emissions targets and carbon credits committed to by clients. Therefore, the need to look at all proper precautions is absolutely vital, and the persons tasked with doing this need to have the confidence of the whole sector.

Amendment 24, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lennie, would make regulations related to carbon dioxide transport and storage licence applications subject to the affirmative procedure. Surely it is sensible that Parliament has a full say in any regulations to ensure that licensing is done both to encourage carbon capture and storage and to ensure that it is properly safeguarded.

We have to see this in the context of an enormous possibility to create significant numbers of jobs—the estimate is 50,000 by as soon as 2030—across industry, power, transport and storage networks. It is absolutely essential that the confidence is there and that all the people who will be engaged in the work we intend to do are properly protected wherever possible.

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I hope I have been able to provide the necessary assurances to noble Lords and noble Baronesses. I thank them for helping us to test the robustness of the Government’s carbon dioxide transport and storage licensing frameworks and I hope that they will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Perhaps I may come back to Amendment 27 and the associated amendments about a “fit and proper person”. Throughout his response, the Minister referred to the granting and awarding of licences at the initial point. However, Amendment 27 is concerned in particular with the transferring of licences. I drew a parallel with our water companies. Most of those have been through multiple ownerships, including hedge funds and companies based in overseas tax havens, et cetera. These companies have a similar nature and have been operated through continual financial transactions and financialisation. Could the Minister comment, either now or in writing, on how the Government see that ongoing process? Okay, you have checked out the person and granted a licence, but then, in a year or two’s time, the company might be bought by someone else and then again by someone else, including companies that may be very unclear. How will the Government keep control?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If the licence is transferred to another body, it will also have to be approved under the same process. You cannot just wake up in the morning and decide to transfer your legal obligations to somebody else who is not an appropriate, fit and proper person. So, of course, that will be taken into consideration.

I must say that the noble Baroness is wrong to provide the parallel with the existing water companies. I do not think that anybody is arguing that people who hold those licences are not fit and proper to do the job. There is a legitimate argument about levels of investment and how that money is being spent, et cetera. However, no one is arguing about their competence; the noble Baroness is trying to draw a very bad parallel there.