Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

We should not rush on this. We have to get it right. However, I am disappointed, not only not to be able to support the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, because she has been so generous in supporting my amendments, but because this subject is truly difficult. We need to concentrate minds and the amendment is a way to do that. It is a good initiative but we have to be careful to ensure that the Government give their proposed Bill priority, which they say they will do in the next Session. We should do all we can to ensure that that happens.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and I join her and other speakers in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for tabling the amendment, which I think is largely intended to start a debate and get some focus on this terribly important issue.

My approach to the whole issue of disinformation about harmful content on the internet is slightly different from those of some of the other speakers. We need to take the same approach as we do with the vaccine, which is to think about vaccination being better than treatment—prevention being better than cure. Ensuring good public communication, information and education about Covid and many other issues is the best possible way in which to take on misinformation, rather than after the fact—after the infection—and then trying to treat it. As soon as one starts trying to combat such messages, it is difficult to avoid repeating them. As any communications professional will tell you, you are then trapped in a difficult cycle of raising the issue up the agenda and raising it up the hashtags.

When we are talking about problems on the internet more generally, we need much broader education on media literacy and critical thinking throughout our education system. That will not help us in the immediate future but, when we are talking about Covid, we can think about the nature of the Government’s communications and public information campaigns that will, in effect, inoculate people against the disinformation so prevalent in cyberspace. We need calm, factual, often quite detailed information that will educate the public about what is going on.

It is telling that we have seen a great deal of hunger among the public for briefings involving senior scientific officers and advisers. Some of them now have their own fan clubs and T-shirts. There is a real hunger for that kind of quality of information with clear scientific facts. That needs to come from all levels of the Government, including the politicians, not just the technical people. Let us trust the public with more information, data and facts, and with more of the difficulties and uncertainties, than we do now.

If one looks at the messaging in countries such as New Zealand and Germany, one can see that the level of detail and facts, and the quality of the information, given to their publics is much better than ours. Nearly every time there is a major government announcement or bit of advice, I see good technical people, senior professors and consultants on social media screaming in frustration about the quality of the presentation, data and messaging. I am talking not just about the shape of the graphs being wrong or whatever; we need to get the whole of government communications much better. That is the best way in which to tackle all these issues.

We all, even those of us with a scientific background, have learned a great deal more about IgG versus IgM versus IgA antibodies. A huge amount of information is out there, as is a hunger among people to find it. We must make sure that the good sources are there. That is the best way to tackle this problem when it comes to Covid and, indeed, much more broadly.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this is an interesting debate and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Thornton. We know that there is a problem with vaccine uptake, which is linked to anti-vaccine sentiment—though not necessarily always.

Looking back over the past few months, I note that there was in November a survey by Savanta ComRes on behalf of ITV News that found that almost 70% of people in the UK would like to receive a vaccination. More recently, in December, the Royal Society for Public Health published a poll showing that 76% of people would take the vaccine but, significantly, that only 57% of people from BAME backgrounds would do so. There was also a lower response among lower-income groups.

No doubt the Minister will give us figures, but my understanding is that the initial results on vaccine uptake are encouraging. However, we cannot be complacent in the face of the pernicious anti-vaccine sentiment around. Even before the pandemic, vaccine hesitancy was described by the WHO as one of the top 10 threats to global health.

We are interested in what the Government are doing. Last month, we debated this issue and the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, the Leader of the House, referred to the work of a central government unit on it. I should like to hear from the Minister about what is happening. We clearly need strong pro-vaccination campaigns, and the majority of people who may be described as vaccine hesitant are not necessarily anti-vaccine. Most people who are hesitant can be persuaded by good public health messages.

However, as my noble friend and other noble Lords have said, there has been a huge amount of misinformation across social media in the past few months. This is obviously cited by survey respondents as an area of concern when it comes to levels of trust in those delivering public health messages. As Scientists for Labour pointed out, since the recovery from the false findings around the MMR vaccine and autism from Mr Andrew Wakefield, the UK overall now ought to be in a good place when it comes to routine vaccine uptake. For example, the HPV vaccine has a consistent uptake of between 80% and 85%, which is an excellent return for a vaccine that is not part of early childhood schedules.

We do not have too much in the way of well-organised anti-vaccine groups, unlike the USA or, indeed, even the Republic of Ireland, so the likelihood is that the UK population will show less hesitancy about recently introduced vaccines compared with other countries. But the level of misinformation out there is high and we have to learn lessons from other recent vaccine scares. Clearly the Government have a huge challenge in making sure that the uptake of the vaccine is as high as possible—which is why I welcome this debate and the amendment, and very much look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Baroness Cumberlege (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. His determination is awe-inspiring. I am so pleased that he has not left this issue mouldering on the Committee Floor but has picked it up again.

I understand what the noble Lord said about the Government not being enthusiastic. However, I have known other issues on which the Government have been less than enthusiastic. It is the way in which we put forward persuasive arguments—although setting up this agency will take a lot of work, with a lot of detail to be considered. However, other schemes have been successful. I think about the one in my area—thalidomide. That trust is still running and getting redress for people who need it. So I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

In our review, we tried to achieve a very simple and accessible structure for patients through the proposed redress agency. In an update on our recommendations, the Minister in the House of Commons, Nadine Dorries, said that the Department of Health and Social Care had delivered ex-gratia payments with individual schemes without the need for a redress agency. Indeed it has.

There are four or five schemes for infected blood alone, with eligibility based on whether the patient was a haemophiliac with HIV; a haemophiliac with hepatitis C; a non-haemophiliac with HIV; or a non-haemophiliac with hepatitis C. These different schemes addressed what type of payment should be awarded according to the patient’s need. What we—I am talking about my team and I—were advocating is a single point of contact for avoidably harmed patients. We felt very strongly that they had suffered enough without the necessity of finding out how to access the schemes that are relevant to them. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has said that something is wrong. He is right: it is wrong. This is not the way to help people who have been seriously harmed.

The problem is that, without a redress agency, each ex gratia scheme starts from scratch, which we felt was grossly inefficient. We need a standing administrative structure, funded by contributions from manufacturers and the state—both have a responsibility. At the moment, litigation is the only route, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has said, for injured people to get serious compensation. We know that the process is very damaging to people. They do not like going to court, they do not like having to put forward all the information that is absolutely necessary—and sometimes not so necessary—and they do not like the fact that it is an adversarial system. We felt that the redress agency could remove the need for adversarial litigation that focuses on blaming individual doctors and nurses. The agency would be non-adversarial and would look at the systems failings that led to avoidable harm. This would help develop an open culture in healthcare and facilitate learning—we are not good at that. We know that the same mistakes happen over and again, and we felt that this was another tool to ensure that there would be much less of that.

Gathering information in one place—the agency—would make it so much easier to learn from the data that is collected and would strengthen the ability of the healthcare system to learn from the mistakes made. We have only to look at the cost of litigation of some £83 billion a year—I was very interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said. We know that, often, the majority of those costs go to the law firms, not the individuals who have suffered so grievously. We felt that it would be much better if those huge sums of money, which are much needed by the NHS, should be used with a redress agency, which would have other advantages, as I have just outlined. A stand-alone agency, with a single entry point, would be a much better and more cost-effective way to award redress to those who suffer such avoidable harm—and many of them suffer for decades.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is again my great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I am pleased to attach my name to Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord.

I do not think the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, will mind if I explain why I am coming in on Amendments 67 and 68 in particular. It is because I was in a meeting and asked her what her next priority would be after the broad achievement of the patient safety commissioner. She said that the redress agency was in her mind as the next priority, which is why I have chosen to make it a priority in this Bill, in which I have become considerably more involved than I was originally expecting.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, did, I have to describe the Government’s response to the noble Baroness’s review as very disappointing. Simply very curtly saying:

“The Government and industry have previously established redress schemes without the need for an additional agency”


really does not engage with the arguments put by the noble Baroness in her report or reflect the strong support seen in the British Medical Journal editorial on 20 August, which expressed growing support for the entire review but particularly for the idea of a redress agency.

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[Baroness Cumberlege (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is interesting that these two amendments reflect each other, but I wanted them to be separate. The debate that we have had on the agency has been really interesting.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just talked about a further review of the whole system, which probably needs doing, but I am dealing all the time—through emails, letters and phone calls—with people who are suffering now. Rather than wait for a really good scheme, which I hope a redress agency would be, I feel that we should be compassionate and really understand how people are suffering today. They will suffer tomorrow. They have suffered for decades. It is time that they had some redress to help them in the very difficult and complicated lives that they lead, with huge suffering. It is not just the individual: it is the family and it is the children, especially with sodium valproate. One must think of the home. It is therefore important for society that we as a Government understand and are happy to supply some redress now.

I thank my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who have put their names to this amendment. I look forward very much to hearing what they have to say.

In the two and a half years that we spent travelling the country, listening to tragic stories from women and their families, there was absolutely no doubt in our minds that avoidable harm had been inflicted on those who openly, honestly and with great dignity told us their life stories. I have frequently mentioned what they and their families have told us, but I will spare your Lordships on this occasion because I do not need to reiterate it. Your Lordships know what we found. It is all in our report, First Do No Harm, if you want to dig a bit deeper. Hormone pregnancy tests, sodium valproate and surgical mesh are three interventions that have caused avoidable psychological harm in some patients. It is also clear that surgical mesh has caused significant physical harm and that sodium valproate has caused physical and neurodevelopmental harm.

Having listened to these ruined lives, we believe that the state and manufacturers have an ethical responsibility to provide discretionary payments to those who have experienced avoidable damage in these three interventions. Each of them should have its own scheme and tailored eligibility criteria. When we have, as I hope we will, a redress agency, these schemes can be subsumed into the agency.

I make it clear that these payments are not intended to cover the costs of services that are already available free of charge. I am thinking of healthcare and social security payments, and in some cases education for children. This is rather for other needs, which could include things such as travel to medical appointments—we have heard a lot about the costs of that—respite breaks or emergency payments, when a parent has had to stop working to cover the care needed for that child or members of the family.

Patients have waited far too long for redress, some for decades, and any scheme must be set up promptly, as soon as possible. However, it should be structured so that it can be incorporated into the redress agency in future. Individuals who obtain compensation through litigation or out-of-court settlements—and we have heard of some, particularly from Johnson & Johnson and the Scottish pelvic mesh settlement—will not need recourse to these schemes. It is over and above what is already supplied by the state or is totally inadequate. So we are not setting a precedent: ex gratia payments have made by the Government to those suffering from infected blood, for example, as I mentioned in the last debate, as well as variant CJD and other areas, where treatments have caused avoidable damage.

In responding to the report’s recommendations, the Patient Safety Minister, Nadine Dorries, said that our recommendation that these schemes should be established is still under consideration. I am very heartened by her words, which give me—and, much more importantly, those who are suffering—cause for hope that the Government will do the right thing.

I ask my compassionate and noble friend the Minister if he could give us more information on this. If it has not been ruled out of court, can he tell us what plans are made to ensure that these schemes become a reality, and very soon, because they are much needed? I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I shall be brief, since I am following the powerful case put by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, for Amendment 68, to which I am pleased to attach my name, along with the noble Lords, Lord O’Shaughnessy and Lord Hunt. This is not a lesser amendment than Amendment 67 but a more limited one. As the noble Baroness said, agreeing Amendment 68 would not stop Amendment 67 from happening in future. The scheme for each individual could be rolled into a broader redress agency. I join her in welcoming the initial response to her report from the Government, which says that proposals such as that in Amendment 68 remain under consideration.

The case has been made—and I am not sure that I am allowed to do this post Brexit, but I note that in France the Government already pay into a fund for valproate damage. There are other cases around the world which reflect what already happens in other instances of medical disasters that have been acknowledged.

I commend the amendment to your Lordships’ House. I do not think that we will be pressing it to a vote tonight, but I hope that the consideration that the Government continue to give will turn into action very soon.