Syria and the Middle East
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Baroness Warsi
That this House takes note of recent developments in Syria and the Middle East.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)
My Lords, before the Minister opens the debate, it may be helpful if I give a little guidance. This debate is not time-limited. I hope that we may use some of our Thursdays for Government-led debates where the House is not constrained by our normal, rather short time limits. There are 25 speakers today in our Syria and Middle East debate. Were Back-Bench contributions to be kept to around 10 minutes, it would allow debate on our later business to commence at about 6.30 pm.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, the situation in Syria and its impact on neighbouring countries continues to be bleak and disturbing. It is already the greatest humanitarian disaster of the century. Some 5,000 Syrians are dying each month, 2.4 million people have been forced from their homes, 250,000 are trapped under siege and the bombardment of civilian areas continues. Yet finally, we saw on Saturday the first, tentative, steps of progress when the United Nations Security Council unanimously adopted the UK co-sponsored Resolution 2139.
As my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire informed the House earlier this week, this resolution—the first time the Security Council has come together to act in response to the deteriorating humanitarian situation—demands an immediate end to the violence, the freeing of besieged areas and the unimpeded delivery of humanitarian aid to the whole of Syria. It rightly condemns terrorist attacks and, in line with Britain’s policy over the past three years, places its weight behind efforts to seek a negotiated political settlement and the implementation of the Geneva communiqué.
Although the passage of Resolution 2139 represents a significant diplomatic success, it will have an impact and relieve the suffering of Syria’s starving people only if it is applied fully and immediately. That is why we are working closely with UN agencies to press ahead quickly with the delivery of aid to hard-to-reach and blockaded areas. In parallel, we call on the Assad regime to comply fully with the resolution. We are clear that we will return to the Security Council and take further steps in the case of non-compliance. Yet it saddens me that, in stark contrast to the approach being taken by the national coalition, there remains no sign of the Assad regime having any willingness whatever to allow the political transition demanded by the Security Council. Indeed, the UN and Arab League envoy, Lakhdar Brahimi, has laid responsibility for the failure of the Geneva II negotiations clearly at the door of the regime.
UK support to the Syrian people within Syria itself and to refugees in surrounding countries now stands at more than £600 million and includes funding for Syrian civil defence teams to help local communities respond to attacks, providing everything from radios and protective firefighting clothing to desperately needed medical kits.
I will now turn to other key countries across the region, starting with Iran. The interim agreement with Iran came into force on 20 January and is being implemented. Meanwhile, the E3+3 and Iran met last week to start negotiations on a comprehensive agreement aimed at ensuring that Iran’s nuclear programme is, and always will be, exclusively peaceful. The talks were constructive and will continue in mid-March in Vienna. We continue to expand our bilateral engagement with Iran. Last Thursday, we and Iran brought protecting power arrangements to an end. This is a sign of increasing confidence that we can conduct bilateral business directly between capitals, rather than through intermediaries.
We will continue with these step-by-step improvements in our bilateral relations, providing that they remain reciprocal. We are, for example, working together on ways in which to make it easier for Iranian and British citizens to obtain consular and visa services. However, the House should be under no illusion that the challenges remain considerable and, until a comprehensive solution to address all proliferation concerns related to Iran’s nuclear programme is found, existing sanctions will remain intact and will be enforced robustly.
Syria’s closest neighbours, Lebanon and Jordan in particular, have both been greatly affected by the continuing instability in the region. As a result, almost one in five of Lebanon’s population is a registered refugee, while Jordan has the dubious honour of being home to the second largest refugee camp in the world. The UK is contributing more than £110 million to assist each of these nations with the humanitarian emergencies that it faces. It was a subject that I discussed at length with the Jordanian Foreign Minister on 9 January, and we continue to co-operate closely. However, the worsening humanitarian crisis is compounded by violence not just in Syria but also in Lebanon, where the UK is providing assistance to increase border security, and in Iraq. The Government and, I am sure, all sides of the House, condemn the recent deaths and violence across the region and urge all sides to unite to find political solutions to the challenges being faced.
In Iraq last year, we saw the violent deaths of more than 8,000 civilians, and 300,000 people have been displaced from the west of Iraq since the beginning of this year alone. Here again, it is vital that inclusive political process accompanies counterterrorism operations. The upcoming parliamentary elections will form a key part of that, by offering the people of Iraq an opportunity to demonstrate their political will, make their voices heard and set a clear mandate for the new Government. It is therefore vital that the elections are free and fair and held on time.
More broadly, in terms of regional security, we must never lose sight of the importance and centrality of the Middle East peace process to the lives of millions of Israelis and Palestinians and to international peace. In the past month, more than 30 Palestinian protesters were injured by Israeli live ammunition, while two Israeli soldiers were injured. Both Israeli and Palestinian security forces have foiled terrorist attacks on Israel, allegedly planned by individuals in the West Bank. Attacks by settlers on Palestinian property also continued. Progress towards peace and a two-state solution is desperately needed, and the efforts by US Secretary of State John Kerry to agree a framework for negotiations offers a unique opportunity to secure lasting peace.
In Egypt, the third anniversary of the revolution was marred by the death of 100 protesters, as terrorist groups brought their terror campaign to Cairo. Having seen three Governments in the three short years since we witnessed such scenes of jubilation, the Egyptian people have yet to find the stable, democratic, representative Government for whom they fought, capable of tackling the vast political and economic challenges the country faces. However, the referendum on the draft constitution, held last month, was an important milestone on the political road map. It allowed millions of Egyptians to express their opinion through the ballot box and brought renewed hope for the presidential and parliamentary elections due to be held before the summer.
Similarly, the challenges facing the people and Government of Libya, as they seek to build a secure, prosperous and democratic country after four decades, remain serious, but we are firmly committed to supporting them in whatever way we can, including by helping reform the police force, army and prison service to ensure that they are accountable, comply with basic standards of human rights and tackle corruption. However, while we must not lose sight of the progress that Libya has made over the past two years, we welcome the recent elections for a constitution drafting committee and the recent statement by Libyan Justice Minister Marghani about Libya’s willingness to co-operate with the UK and US on the Lockerbie case. It is still clear that political divisions within Libya continue to hamper progress overall. The conference on Libya in Rome on 6 March offers all Libyans the opportunity to renew their commitment to a single, inclusive political settlement. The UK looks forward to taking part in the conference and will continue to encourage other nations to provide the international support that Libya needs on issues as varied as political transition, governance and arms and ammunition.
I turn to where the Arab spring began. Tunisia continues to overcome significant obstacles and continues its democratic transition. On 26 January, it achieved an important and historic milestone: the adoption of a new constitution that embodies the fundamental freedoms called for by the Tunisian people. The UK will continue to offer support to the Tunisian Government, both through our own Arab partnership programme and through the EU and G8, to ensure that Tunisia can sustain and build on its achievements so far, and can continue to be an inspiration to others struggling for freedom across the region.
Let me now turn to the Gulf states. I had the honour of visiting Saudi Arabia and Oman last week, to discuss—among other things—religious tolerance and other regional issues. The UK has an incredibly strong relationship with our Gulf partners. More than 160,000 British nationals live and work there. We work together across a wide range of issues. The Gulf is vital for our energy security and for countering the terrorist threat, and it is one of our largest global export markets.
The Gulf states share our concern at the instability and turbulence in the Middle East. On Syria, we work with Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE as part of the London 11 grouping, and Gulf nations contributed generously to the $2.4 billion raised by the recent Syria pledging conference in Kuwait. We work with Gulf countries to enhance regional security, for example by responding to the security situation in Yemen, particularly with Saudi Arabia with whom we co-chair the Friends of Yemen group.
We are delivering aid work in Afghanistan in conjunction with our colleagues from the UAE; supporting Bahrain through its ground-breaking reform process; and have strong defence and commercial ties with our friends in Oman. Gulf countries provide a welcome base for our armed forces, and UK expertise and equipment is contributing to Gulf defence. We also value the contribution Gulf countries make to our security, particularly through our close co-operation on counterterrorism issues.
In a region which has seen huge instability and violence, Yemen’s progress so far has been commendable. The UK welcomes the recent conclusions of the National Dialogue Conference and applauds the spirit of co-operation and compromise that allowed participants to reach a consensus. However, millions of Yemenis are still living without food, shelter or water. The UK is the third largest donor of humanitarian aid and DfID has committed £196 million over three years to support development. However, the security situation in Yemen remains dire. The UK has been working with the Yemeni Government for a number of years to help them disrupt al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula and to help deny al-Qaeda a haven in Yemen for the future. The UK now urges progress on the next stages of Yemen’s transition, which includes the drafting of a new constitution, implementation of the NDC outcomes, timely organisation of a constitutional referendum and transparent elections.
In opening this debate it is clear—and it will become increasingly clear as the debate unfolds—that the situation in the Middle East continues, despite the odd glimmer of hope, to give grave cause for concern. The UK continues to be extremely active across the region—bilaterally and multilaterally through the UN and EU, and with allies—to deliver urgent humanitarian assistance, to bolster security and to provide forums in which all parties can work towards sustainable political settlements. I know it is a region of the world about which there is great interest and certainly expertise on all sides of this House, and I look forward to hearing your Lordships’ assessment of the situation.
European Union (Referendum) Bill
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)
The noble Lord is inviting others to intervene. I know that when he impugns my integrity I need to come to the Dispatch Box to explain that I have followed precisely the same procedure in all these matters as my predecessors in a Labour Government. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has exchanged with the Telegraph online the contents of a private letter that I sent to him in the usual channels. I will give the noble Lord the opportunity to respond, but may I just complete saying that I have absolutely followed every rule? If the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, says that he did not discuss the terms of that letter and that the Telegraph obtained it by other means, I will welcome his assurance on that matter.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
The noble Baroness, for whom I have the greatest respect, makes a number of allegations, which are completely unfounded. Nobody could have been more surprised than I to receive a telephone call from the Telegraph, which I referred to our communications adviser, yesterday afternoon. I was extraordinarily disappointed to hear about what I had assumed was confidential correspondence, seeking simply two things—a clarification of the Chief Whip’s role in the business of the House today but, more importantly, some idea of when the business of the House might conclude. I had hoped that we would have a reasonable time put before your Lordships’ House this morning for business to be conducted within. I am appalled that that correspondence was leaked; it is not my practice to leak correspondence. I genuinely believed when I wrote that letter that it was a letter written in confidence and I would appreciate an apology on this point.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am very glad to hear that the noble Lord did not leak that. I certainly could come to only one conclusion. I am very disappointed that anybody should leak private information, because I always value my exchanges with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. We have worked together well and we will continue to do so. All I can say is that anybody who has revealed that information has acted improperly. I know that this House wishes to proceed in a proper manner and I assure the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I have followed every single procedure of every previous government Chief Whip.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
The apology should be from those who leaked the information. I am saying that I am deeply sorry that I saw the information online and that somebody has leaked it. I am deeply grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has made it clear to the House that it was not he.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
Did the noble Baroness, the Chief Whip, apologise to my noble friend Lord Bassam for repeating something that she believed to be true which my noble friend has denied?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I have made it clear that there would be an apology from me if I had uttered an untruth. I have not uttered an untruth. What I have said is that I am deeply disappointed that anybody should have leaked that letter. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has been able to make it clear that it was not he. I am grateful for that because our relationship has been a proper one in the usual channels and will continue to be so.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we began today with the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, making it clear that he wishes a proper process on this Bill. I know from Peers who have come to see me who are against the Bill that they want to proceed. I suggest that we do so in the normal manner, but I would be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, did not impugn my motives or actions as government Chief Whip. I answered all those matters to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in that private letter, which will clearly remain private as far as the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and I are concerned.
Baroness Quin
My Lords, this is important because the Chief Whip said that she acted in accordance with the actions of previous Chief Whips. However, this situation is unprecedented as only one part of the Government is imposing business on us in this way. She is not acting in accordance with the actions of previous Chief Whips because she acting only as part of the Government and not the whole Government. That is a very big difference from what has happened before.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
I want to make a few points. First, I think that my noble friend Lord Foulkes is following a pipe dream if he thinks that there will be a definitive decision. I concede that if there were a substantial majority one way or the other, that would be a definitive decision, but we should remember not just the precedent of the Cunningham amendment but the precedent of 1975, when there was a very clear decision by the electorate to remain within the EEC. However, people such as Tony Benn and others were very quick not to accept the result and they lobbied against it.
In US politics there is a story—probably apocryphal —of a decision which was made by a drunken member of the public who, a minute or so before the polls closed, staggered into a polling station and fell on to a voting machine. His vote was the decisive one on that occasion. That sounds rather absurd but there was a film on that same theme in a key state in a presidential election.
Given the importance of the decision that the electorate will be making in the referendum, if it goes ahead, it is important that we seriously consider a threshold, not at this stage but on Report.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am not seeking to interrupt for bad reasons the progress of the Bill or to prevent the next Peer speaking on the amendment. For the last hour or so, Members of the House have been asking what happens next. When my noble friend Lord Popat was challenged about rising times, he was unaware that amicable discussions were going ahead between myself and the Opposition Chief Whip with regard to today’s business.
The expectation of the Opposition Chief Whip and myself is that the House will rise after the conclusion of Amendment 48, which is shortly ahead of us now. I am saying this now so that those who wish to speak to the amendment after Amendment 48 but may not be involved in the rest of today’s business will have a better certainty about the planes and trains they need to catch.
There is an agreement that we should conclude today’s business at the end of Amendment 48 and I shall not seek to prolong the Committee stage beyond that. At that stage I shall seek to resume the House and shortly after that I shall adjourn the House. I will, in the normal way, as a courtesy to the House indicate formally—I am doing it informally now—that we will continue the Committee stage of this Bill next Friday, 31 January at 10 o’clock. My expectation is that the Committee stage will conclude on that day and, given the progress today, I believe that is a reasonable assumption.
I hope that that is helpful to all concerned who, in different ways, have been working hard on this Bill and for different reasons. I now invite those noble Lords who are taking part in the debate on Amendment 40 to continue to do so. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for the helpful discussions we have had today.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I have added my name to probing Amendment 49, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, has just spoken.
The credibility and authority of the result of a referendum is very important. I do not buy the argument that a referendum will lance the boil. The 1975 referendum singularly failed to lance the boil given the positions adopted by the Labour Party within a few years afterwards. Lancing the boil is not a good argument.
However, if you are seriously contemplating leaving the European Union, you should not do that unless you have a clear majority in favour of doing so. This is a very conservative argument which I put forward for the delectation of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, and his colleagues. The status quo should be changed only if a majority of the country want the change. That is why I support the threshold amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin.
However, I, too, do not wish to press the amendment now. I hope, following the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, today, that when we come back on Report, when we will be in Act 3 of the play, there will be a different spirit about, the question of thresholds will be approached in an apolitical way and people will be presenting constitutional arguments rather than party politics. On that basis, like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I shall be happy not to press Amendment 49 at the moment.
European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill
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The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now received. I would also like to respond briefly to points raised in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, with regard to further EU enlargement in the western Balkans. I reassure the noble Lords that regional co-operation and good neighbourly relations are essential elements of EU enlargement. This was reiterated in the General Affairs Council conclusions of December 2011. The conclusions set out the EU’s expectation that disputes within the western Balkans should not have a detrimental effect on the shared goal of progress towards EU membership.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is unusual that there are no amendments down today. While noble Lords are leaving, could they do so quietly? The Minister is having the courtesy to respond to points made in Committee, and I know that those who took part in Committee will want to hear her courteous remarks.
Baroness Warsi
The conclusions set out the EU’s expectations that disputes within the western Balkans should not have a detrimental effect on the shared goal of progress towards EU membership. The Government support that statement in full.
Croatia, with its recent experience of accession negotiations, can itself play a constructive role in supporting its neighbours on their EU paths. I am pleased to say that Croatia is already doing this, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, highlighted in his remarks in Committee. In addition to the UK’s support for candidate countries, the UK provides expert support through EU peer-to-peer twinning projects. For example, since 2010, the UK has been awarded six twinning contracts in Kosovo, and we have recently been awarded a new project in Montenegro. We have already hosted a delegation of Croatian twinners to explore how we can work together on new twinning projects as partners in the region.
Finally, it is important that the EU’s enlargement process works. Croatia’s successful accession is an important concrete means of maintaining the incentive of EU membership in other western Balkan countries. Croatia’s efforts will highlight that the EU rewards the hard work that underpins countries’ transformations.
Nigeria
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we are at the beginning of Questions. Perhaps we may hear from the Opposition first. The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, will then be next.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
The Minister will be well aware that Boko Haram is only part of an Islamist tide sweeping across the Sahel. In northern Nigeria, a particular problem is the atrocities against the Christian community—the attempt, in effect, to cleanse northern Nigeria of Christians. What specifically are the Government doing to assist Nigeria, possibly in co-operation with our French colleagues because of the general nature of the problem, and to what extent do we fear for the unity of Nigeria?
Death Penalty
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the courtesy of the House is that no more than one Peer is on their feet at the same time, so perhaps I may be that Peer for the moment. We have just heard from the Labour Benches; might we hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches, and then perhaps from the Cross Benches, before returning to Labour?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is the custom that when a Labour person has asked the Question we then give other Benches an opportunity. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, was not trying to be difficult.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, what can we say to countries that prescribe the death penalty for offences such as adultery or apostasy? My noble friend will have noted the unlawful deportation by Malaysia of the writer Hamza Kashgari to Saudi Arabia, where he faces execution for something that he said on Twitter. Will the Government propose to the UN that states which execute people for apostasy should be made ineligible for membership of the Human Rights Council?
European Union Bill
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The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes)
Amendments 15 to 21 moved formally en bloc, Lord Hannay?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is my understanding that these amendments are not consequential on Amendment 14, on which the Government have just suffered a defeat. I understand that the Public Bill Office did not notify these amendments as being consequential. They were not put forward as being consequential by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in opening, and they were certainly not accepted by the Minister in winding as being consequential. I can understand that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, might consider it desirable to insert Amendments 15 and 16 as a policy objective, but they are not consequential on the amendment that has just been decided.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, if I may, I will respond to some extremely mysterious words from the Government Chief Whip that I am afraid I do not altogether understand. I was perfectly clear when I introduced this set of amendments—which were grouped together by the Government Whips in a way with which I had no trouble at all—that I was introducing the whole body of the amendments, and nobody gainsaid that at all.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the procedure when seeking any agreement on consequential amendments is, first of all, that they should be clearly consequential; these are not.
Secondly, grouping of course is for the convenience of the House. It does not indicate that all the amendments in a group are consequential. Indeed, if that were the case, there could be an invidious position whereby a noble Lord might have an amendment in a group led by a government amendment, and they would not be able to vote on later amendments in that group. Grouping is not of itself an indication of consequentiality. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the Minister did not accept the other amendments as being consequential. I am advised that the Public Bill Office did not give prior indication that these amendments were to be considered consequential.
Indeed, there are matters that are consequential in later groups. It is for the Government to consider whether they wish to bring different policy objectives to bear in another place as a result of Amendment 14. Amendments 15 and 16 may indeed be seen by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as desirable in policy terms, but those two amendments are not consequential on the Government’s defeat regarding Amendment 14. The noble Lord may wish to consider whether to take the matter further. There will, of course, be the opportunity to deal with the matter in another place and it may return here on another occasion.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, in almost all other circumstances I would not have dreamt of getting to my feet to argue this point, but I genuinely do not believe that a single Member of your Lordships’ House did not think that that was a debate on one set of matters that were plainly related. The speeches all dealt with issue after issue and the total consequence of them. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, introduced the group by saying that attention had been given to questions described by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, as the big issues—I am not trying to argue that he said that what some of us described as smaller issues are not important. I cannot believe, in all conscience, that anybody in this House was under any misapprehension about the character of the last debate. It would be tragic if we got into a position where game-playing took over from the decencies of proper politics.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, in 13 years of opposition, we never thought to press an amendment that was not consequential when it had not formally been agreed to as being consequential by the Bill team and by the Minister, who always checked in advance. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, talks about matters being related. Of course matters are related in debates on groups of amendments. That is why amendments are grouped. It is part of the constructive way in which this House works.
The Government cannot accept that Amendments 15 and 16 are consequential simply because they are not. They may be the policy objective that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, feels is sensible and advisable, but it may not be what the Government accept as sensible and advisable. The Government may wish to take a different view. It is not a matter of the Government being recalcitrant. If something is not consequential and has not been accepted by the Government as being consequential, it is not. It is procedural, and it is something to be considered in the future if the Opposition wish to have amendments accepted as consequential when they are not. It is a matter of negotiation beforehand; not for announcement on the Floor of the House.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I wish to protest, frankly, at what I can only describe as an extremely underhand manoeuvre. I cannot believe that, if it were the intention of the Government to argue as they are now doing, it was not the right, proper and fair thing to do to warn the House before this debate started, on the basis of a grouping of amendments that the Government had made themselves and that were agreed to, that whatever we decided on Amendment 14 would not apply to the rest. We would then have had a completely different sort of debate. No warning was given of that sort at the time. No indication was given. If the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, seriously intended to do that, he could have said that, but he did not. He did not say one word of that. He in fact addressed all the amendments in this grouping in the debate, and when I asked to test the opinion of the House, there was no indication by any Member of the House that we were not testing the opinion on the whole group. I hope that, on calm reflection, the Government Chief Whip will consider that this is an unwise course to go down and one that is likely to lead to bad blood and accusations of something less than fair play. I will sit down now. We can have one more round at this, and afterwards I will speak.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it may be helpful if I just point out at this stage that it is for each individual Peer to make their own view about how they present amendments. When a debate is held, it is not for the Government to warn the House as to whether any amendments may be consequential if the Government lose a Division. That is not how this House has been run. It has been a matter for those in charge of an amendment to be able to determine its fate and then to give advice to the House as to whether it considers other matters consequential. I have made it clear that the Government do not consider Amendments 15 and 16 to be consequential on Amendment 14. That is exactly the procedure that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, would have carried out when he was the Government Chief Whip, because it is the way that this House works. It is not for the Government at the beginning of each debate to say that a number of amendments are grouped together and, if the House decides on the first of the amendments, we will not consider the rest consequential. It is for the person bringing the debate to make that statement.
However, I can feel the strength of feeling on some Benches that noble Lords wish, in a sense, to change the way in which this House works on the hoof, which is what the request is today. I am going to listen to that. The House has heard the argument. It is a matter that will need to be considered by the usual channels and perhaps the Procedure Committee. If the House is to change the way that it groups amendments and then deals with consequential amendments, it should be done after calm consideration; it cannot be done here and now.
The Government will not object to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, moving his next two amendments, although I state again that I do not accept the policy that he proposes within them. That should not be taken as proof that the Government consider them consequential or in any way acceptable. On that basis, the House can proceed knowing the Government’s view that the remainder of the amendments in this group are not acceptable. We will not resist them, because the House has already been tested in its patience almost beyond endurance by the length of this debate on Report.
European Union Bill
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Lord Hannay of Chiswick
Perhaps the Minister would not mind going back about one minute to what he was saying about advocates-general and members of the European Court of Justice. I think that sometimes the Government seem not to be very aware of the chemistry of decision-making in the European Union. The fact of the matter is that so long as you need unanimity to appoint these judges, we will never block one because we will be terrified that somebody will block ours. The chemistry is that so long as there is unanimity, nobody blocks anything and everyone goes through on the nod. That has been true ever since the European Union was set up. If you have QMV for this, and I am not saying that we should move to it immediately, there would be no such “see no evil, hear no evil” approach because you would be terrified that if you tried to block someone on abusive grounds, you would be overridden.
I think that some of the arguments that the Minister used about—
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the Minister is winding. Obviously it is for noble Lords to intervene to ask a question, but not to make a speech. If the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, wishes to make a further speech in Committee—of course I am not inviting him to do so as I am not going to test the patience of the Chamber—I would indicate that he is able to make a further speech, but at the moment, if he has a question to put, he may put it.
European Union Bill
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, my noble friend has sat down and there has been an agreement through the usual channels that this might be a convenient moment for the noble Lord who moved the amendment to respond and for us to move on after that. There have been a considerable number of interventions. My noble friend the Minister has been extremely generous with his responses. I invite the Committee to move on and the mover of the amendment to speak.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I really cannot agree with that. The Chief Whip is suggesting that there should be a limit on Committee stages. This is Committee and it is open to any Member at any time, until there is closure or we are all fed up with speaking, to continue the debate. The noble Baroness should not introduce new rules without the consent of the House.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, of course I do not seek closure. I know that my noble friend has been very generous in his winding-up remarks and that noble Lords have been keen to intervene to achieve elucidation. These are indeed very important matters. I appreciate that we are now reaching two hours, 48 minutes. We do not have anything by way of a guillotine in this House, but we have self-regulation. I believe that it is the sense of the Committee that it would be right for the mover of the amendment to respond now to the position put by my noble friend Lord Howell.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I am grateful to the Minister for his considered reply. I strongly agree with his point about public disquiet and concern. Particularly in this House, we underrate the extent to which public opinion has moved against the European Union in recent years. However, the Bill will do absolutely nothing to remedy that concern and disquiet. What we need to do, and this is a responsibility particularly of the Government, is to be out selling in public the truth about the European Union. However, I agree with the analysis that the Minister provided at the outset of his remarks.
He was also quite right to range widely before focusing on my amendment, because, alas, the debate had ranged very widely. I did not realise how many of the captains and the kings would come in and how much Sturm und Drang we would have as we ranged over the battlefield. Quite a lot of the debate was, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, pointed out, technically a little bit out of order, but it was very interesting.
I have to disappoint one or two noble Lords who spoke in favour of my amendment—and I note that only two spoke against it, none of them from the government Benches. My disappointed comes from the fact that the scope of my amendment is extremely narrow. If the Government were to accept it, and I do not know why they do not, the particular procedures applying to treaty amendments that result from the simplified process would fall away and all treaty amendments would be handled in the same way. I do not know why Clause 3 is needed as well as Clause 2. I was not arguing today that nothing that is done by the simplified procedure should ever justify a referendum—that is my view, but it was not the argument that I was making today. My argument today was that there was no need for Clause 3 and no need anywhere in the Bill for any reference to Article 48(6). We need proper, substantive definitions based on the content of a treaty amendment—what it says, what it does—to decide how significant they are and whether there is a requirement for a referendum. I will probably be somewhere else on the spectrum of that debate from the Minister. You need to address the substance of the treaty amendment, not the process by which the treaty amendment was arrived at.
Clause 2 refers to: “Treaties amending or replacing TEU or TFEU”. The title of Clause 3 is: “Amendment of TFEU under simplified revision procedure”. If Clause 3 vanishes, the only procedure you would have would be that set out in Clause 2, and it would apply to all treaty amendments. I cannot see why the Government do not buy that.
The Minister spent a long time trying to persuade us that you could, under the simplified revision procedure, transfer competences to the European Union, despite the plain wording of Article 48(6) that you cannot transfer competences to the European Union by that root.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is the custom of the House that two noble Lords should not be standing at the same time. We are in Committee; I wonder if the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, might take his seat.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
I would be grateful if the noble Lord took his seat. I appreciate that he is the most courteous of Members of the House and simply did not hear me at that point. When making interventions in Committee, it is a matter of course that one does not need to interrupt a Minister in his or her flow. One is permitted in Committee to allow the Minister to complete an explanation before the next person gets up.
I appreciate that both the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, wish to ask questions. The noble Lord was on his feet first; perhaps the noble and learned Baroness might allow him to ask his further question first.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I am sorry if I transgressed in some way. Strangely enough, I was actually trying to be helpful to the Minister—unusually, so far, in this Committee stage. The answer that he gave is correct. The circumstance that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, refers to is virtually unthinkable since EU law applies to Gibraltar because it is part of the EU, as in our treaty. The idea that you can then legislate for some tiny part of the EU is pretty alien to the way that Europe does its legislation. The Channel Islands and the others are in a completely different situation, as the Minister says, and European law does not apply to them.
I suggest that the Minister does not put Monaco into the same bracket as the French overseas territories. He will not be well received in the casino next time he goes—if he does.
European Union Bill
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Waddington
My Lords, in view of what happened on the Second Reading of this Bill, will my noble friend take this opportunity to remind noble Lords of their obligation to treat with courtesy all noble Lords in this House? Will he express the hope that there will be no repeat of what happened on Second Reading, and that if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, rises to speak, he will be listened to with patience and respect even when he expresses views that others find very unpalatable?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, raises a very pertinent matter. Naturally, when the scheduling of business is carried out in negotiation with Her Majesty’s Opposition, all matters are taken into account, including the availability of Front-Bench spokesmen and the interests of the House itself. The noble Lord has raised a matter of which, of course, the usual channels are aware, and they are taking urgent action to resolve it. As the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, has indicated, it is important that all those in this House who have an interest in the Bill and who have expertise in such matters should have a full opportunity to participate in it. I assure the noble Lord that we are taking urgent measures, in negotiation with the Deputy Chairman of Committees, to ensure that his concerns are addressed.
My noble friend Lord Waddington raised the matter of the behaviour of Members of the House. I have had representations from all quarters of the House. Noble Lords expressed concern about the asperity not of speech but perhaps of manner on the occasion of the Second Reading of the European Union Bill. This is a matter that all Members of the House will care about. Members have also expressed wider concerns about the normal behaviour in the House. Discussions will proceed, and I know that all Members have at the core of their being a devotion to the House of Lords and to its continuance as an important place within Parliament.
Lord Richard
My Lords, is the government Chief Whip aware that in the Second Reading debate on the Bill, I was sitting where I stand now, and the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, was immediately behind me. In the whole of the debate, I detected no sign of distress or concern on his part at the way in which he was treated. It seems to me that he took it in his usual good spirits. There was a fair amount of joshing and no harm was done. When the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, made his complaint, I did not understand it.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I understand entirely the point made by my noble friend Lord Waddington. His concern is shared by Members across the House. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, draws attention to the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is a redoubtable person in this House who is well used to the slings and arrows of the political arena and who is able to give as good as he gets. However, the wider concern of the House is that there should be respect during proceedings, and that we came close to a difficult point that we wish not to approach again.
Iraq: Camp Ashraf
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I have the feeling that since the Question was put by a Member on the opposition Benches, the mood of the House is that the Cross Benches should have an opportunity to speak, perhaps followed by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
I am grateful to the House and to the noble Baroness. Has the Minister had the chance to study the decision of the Spanish authorities to bring before the Spanish courts on 8 March some of the officials of the Iraqi Government because of the violations of human rights which have occurred at Camp Ashraf, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale? Given that this is in breach of Article 4 of the Geneva Convention—it is on that basis that those officials are being brought before the Spanish courts—why are other members of the international community, other members of NATO and the European Union not taking the same position as the Spanish authorities?