Technology Sovereignty
Debate between Anneliese Dodds and Chi Onwurah(1 week, 3 days ago)
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Dame Chi Onwurah
The level of interest shows just what an important issue this is. I will come on to discuss some aspects of collaboration as it relates to sovereignty, but I observe that the last time our sovereignty as a mid-sized power was seriously debated was during Brexit, and the slogan “Take back control” reflected the sense that too much sovereignty had been ceded to the European Union without an honest debate with the British people. As a member of the Labour party, I know that we are stronger together and that that can require some loss of autonomy to deliver results, which actually make people more secure, but that must not be done without an honest debate.
Let us look at the four specific sovereignty challenges, the first of which is critical infrastructure and cloud data dependency. The Competition and Markets Authority found that cloud services in Britain are dominated by AWS at 40% to 50%, and Microsoft at 30%. Crown Hosting is meant to be our sovereign hosting capability, but it only hosts 4% of Government legacy services. Both Amazon Web Services and Oracle claim to offer a sovereign cloud—they do say to deal with the difficult part in the title!
The second issue I want to look at is the hot topic of AI. There is no Brit large language model but there is the ambition to transform our public services and industry through AI. The AI opportunities action plan repeatedly references sovereign AI and sovereign compute without defining them. The major AI companies Google, Anthropic, OpenEye, Microsoft and DeepSeek are all headquartered abroad. DeepMind formed Google’s AI capability and was founded right here in the UK before being bought. What capability does the UK now have in AI? What minimum capability does the Minister think we need? How do we respond to the EU Cloud and AI Development Act, which may exclude UK companies?
Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. When it comes to AI, an enormous amount of investment is needed. There are many discussions at the moment about the impact of that huge investment in AI. It is very difficult for a smaller country such as the UK to compete in that regard. Does she agree that we need to work with like-minded countries on these issues, including those in the EU? Does she agree that we need to make sure that this is one of the key topics when President Macron visits the UK later this year?
Dame Chi Onwurah
I agree with my right hon. Friend that we certainly need to work with like-minded countries.
The third area is cyber-security and data governance. Some argue that we are already at war in the cyber-sphere. Last year’s strategic defence review emphasised cyber and electromagnetic domains, and established a new UK cyber and electromagnetic command to enhance that, with £1 billion in new funding for homeland air missile defence and cyber-security initiatives. Should these be British suppliers? Should they be European? Should they be exclusively NATO suppliers?
On data governance, the foreign direct product rule allows the United States to restrict access to advanced computing chips and AI-related software. By adding UK companies to the entity list, the US can immediately cut them off from cloud services, software and AI tools, while the Cloud and Patriot Acts expand data access powers to compel US companies to hand over data even if held overseas—that is, in the UK. Has the Minister discussed those powers with Microsoft, AWS and Palantir?
Fourthly and finally, we have the UK’s reliance on global supply chains. Critical minerals are an obvious example, but because I am a bit of a geek I want to mention the common information models that enable the things in the internet of things to talk to each other. By 2030, there will be 6 billion CIM connections globally. China controls 70% of the market, creating a huge possibility for the disruption of everything from traffic systems to energy grid operations.
That is a really quick canter through just a few of the technology sovereignty issues. I want to look at two specific examples in more detail. First, the NHS has the largest and most comprehensive longitudinal and structured patient level datasets in the world. I support the push for digital integration as we transition the NHS from analogue to digital, with interoperability and standardisation bringing faster access and better analytics, yet a growing share of NHS data flows through US companies.
The federated data platform contract places core NHS data operations on Palantir’s proprietary systems. Why? There have been numerous reports of irregularities in the way the contract was awarded. In addition—this, for me, is a key point of sovereignty—Palantir’s founder and controlling stakeholder, Peter Thiel, has a political worldview which is at odds with British values. The same is true of Elon Musk. It does our constituents’ sense of agency no good to see their Government so dependent on these companies. Nearly half of adults say that they would opt out of NHS data sharing if the platform was operated by a private foreign provider.
The second example is also to do with Palantir. Its recent defence contract also raised many questions. The strategic defence review emphasised AI as a core enabler of military capability. Reports suggest that Palantir serves primarily as a vehicle for integrating Anthropic’s AI models. The US has just declared Anthropic a supply chain risk for US companies, so will Palantir break UK workflows that are using Anthropic? I am certain that President Trump would not allow British companies to control US defence datasets, so why are we allowing American ones to control ours?
I could go on about civil nuclear, telecoms infrastructure, subsea cables, quantum, space and drones, but I will stop there, and finish by looking at possible solutions. Technology sovereignty was a big theme at the Munich security conference, and the US-Europe trust gap was a yawning chasm following the shock realisation that we could not always count on the US as an ally. Technology sovereignty solutions that focus on technological leadership, such as in the Secretary of State’s definition, reflect the basic idea that if the UK leads on, say, protein folding then Google may be less inclined to switch off ChatGPT if we side with Denmark when the US tries to seize Greenland.
Whether I agree with that approach or not, it certainly resonates with the evidence that the Committee heard from witnesses in so many domains regarding how important it is for the science and business community to understand where the Government are seeking to lead, so that resources can be focused and skills built there. Can the Minister say whether the Government plan to decide which aspects of AI, quantum, space or bioengineering we will seek to lead in? AI is often thought of as having three layers: infrastructure, data and applications. Can the Minister tell us where in the AI stack we are aiming for control, leadership, sovereignty or whatever we want to call it? Also, does he agree that weak competition in the AI and digital sectors, caused by giant incumbents, reduces our ability to lead?
Open source is often cited as at least part of the solution to sovereignty. I am a huge advocate for open source, open interfaces, transparent code and standard protocols, which can reduce or minimise dependence. Despite the policy ambitions, three quarters of NHS trusts’ development teams do not use open source approaches. None of the AI models currently being deployed within the public sector is an open ecosystem; all are proprietary in nature. The Minister’s Department has sign-off on all significant IT procurement. Is open source a requirement of it?
Finally, can science diplomacy help us to negotiate technology sovereignty? A number of Members have raised the issue of collaboration. Can we build on our human capital strengths by collaborating and working with partners who have respect for our values, take collaborative approaches, and can share with us the financial capital needed to make our sovereign objectives a reality? Are we happy to share leadership, and perhaps sovereignty, with our allies?
UK Leadership on Sudan
Debate between Anneliese Dodds and Chi Onwurah(1 year, 3 months ago)
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Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the issues he raised. He will no doubt be aware that there is a UK arms embargo for all of Sudan, and there is also a UN arms embargo on Darfur. I hope that that helps fill out some of the multilateral and bilateral work that the UK has been engaged in on embargoes.
On the engagement of the armed groups—the warring parties—particularly in peace talks, I have discussed that matter at length with a number of members of civil society. Relating that to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), many of those civilian groups are very concerned that they need to be involved in the peace talks. I met a number of their representatives in Addis Ababa, particularly of the civil society grouping Tagadum, which we are supporting because that civilian voice is incredibly important. More generally, as I mentioned before, we also believe that all warring parties must prioritise taking part in the talks that are so necessary to end this conflict.
The hon. Gentleman asked whether we have had discussions around the US’s role. I discussed that directly with the US lead on humanitarian issues. In fact, we were involved in joint sessions at the UN General Assembly on the matter. Finally, he mentioned the key issue of the profile of the emergency in Sudan—the largest number of displaced people anywhere in the world. Sudan was one of the first issues I wanted to be briefed on and active on when I came into my role. It was the reason I visited South Sudan over the summer. I know many Members and, indeed, many of our constituents are deeply concerned about the situation. I am pleased that we are seeing more media coverage. Of course, when it comes to a Disasters Emergency Committee appeal, that is a decision for the broadcasters to take, but I hope the renewed interest we are seeing in the media will lead to its gaining a higher profile.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)
As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for Africa, I have raised the terrible conflict in Sudan on a number of occasions. Too often, it has felt like a forgotten conflict, despite the scale of suffering there, so I welcome the Minister’s leadership on that issue. She talked about the regional impact. What steps has she taken to support South Sudan, Chad and Egypt? How is she engaging with grassroots groups in South Sudan so that their voices are heard as we try to move towards a solution to that terrible conflict?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising those issues, and I thank her and many other Members gathered here for their leadership on them. She mentioned the situation in neighbouring countries. I am aware that in Chad, South Sudan and Egypt there are large numbers of refugees from Sudan. We have discussed those matters with representatives from each of those countries. We are seeing quite different profiles in the relative economic circumstances of refugees in those countries and in how they are being supported. I know that in Egypt there is a determination to support people, as indeed there is in South Sudan and in Chad.
On conversations with civil society organisations in South Sudan, I have had a number of discussions—particularly with women’s rights organisations there—about the conflict, and I have spoken directly with some of those who have fled Sudan. I have spoken with representatives from Chad about it as well. We must be conscious that, as I mentioned, many of those countries already face significant challenges in food insecurity, economic development and the impact of the climate crisis, and now they are dealing with this major influx of refugees. We must pay tribute to them for enabling those refugees to seek safety and security within their borders.
Israel: UNRWA Ban
Debate between Anneliese Dodds and Chi Onwurah(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)
The humanitarian situation in Gaza is horrific and catastrophic, and the Israeli Knesset has actually voted to make it worse. Without UNRWA, millions of Palestinians will lose life-saving food, medical treatment, housing and much more. I am grateful that the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister have condemned the Knesset decision, but does she agree that the fact that 90% of the Knesset voted to ban UNRWA is an indictment of the Knesset, as well as an insight into the value that Israeli parliamentarians place on Palestinian lives and therefore on human life?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for saying that the UK Government have been clear on this. We do not agree with the Knesset’s decision. We believe it is wrong. We believe that UNRWA has a clear, mandated international role in the region, which is particularly important right now in Gaza given the extreme humanitarian need. As she intimated, we are very concerned about the potential impact of any harm to UNRWA’s operations on the provision of food, services, education or healthcare—the support that people in Gaza so desperately need.
Gaza and Lebanon
Debate between Anneliese Dodds and Chi Onwurah(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)
The author Howard Jacobson recently wrote that the sustained media coverage of children being killed in Gaza was functioning as a new “blood libel” against the Jewish people. My right hon. Friend will be aware of the horrendous role that that blood libel has played in the violent pogroms and horrendous antisemitism across history. Will she clearly state that the accurate reporting of the terrible deaths of thousands of children and, equally importantly, the humanising of those vibrant lives cut short by the actions of the Israel Defence Forces are a critical part of the work of a free media in our country, so that our constituents can see the horrendous suffering that is happening in Gaza and Lebanon right now?
Anneliese Dodds
Accurate reporting is critical. We are seeing large numbers of images and pieces of footage circulating that are incredibly disturbing, and perhaps for the first time our constituents are able to access this wherever they are, because they can see it on their smart- phones, not just on their television screens. It is important that we have accuracy, so that there is clarity for our domestic population about what has taken place, and so that, for example, assessments around humanitarian law can be taken in a fully informed manner. That is how they must be taken legally.