Devolution of Justice: Wales

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Vickers, for the chance to respond to this debate. I pay tribute to all who have contributed. It is not lost on me that the debate is happening today of all days, as we face England in the football. Yma o hyd. Pob lwc, Cymru. I am sure we are all behind the Wales football team this evening.

A fair and effective system is fundamental to any country, and 12 long years of this Tory Government have completely broken the justice system across England and Wales. When the Commission on Justice in Wales undertook that unprecedented examination of justice, its conclusion was unequivocal:

“the people of Wales are being let down”

by the justice system. Crime is high, charges are low, criminals are getting off and victims are being let down. With record court closures, a decade or more of cuts and crippling court backlogs, the UK Government’s inability to adapt to current pressures and to lead through a victim’s focus is letting every one of us down.

A survey by the Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales revealed that less than half of victims would report to the police again due to their traumatic experiences. The former Victims’ Commissioner, Dame Vera Baird, said in her resignation letter that the

“downgrading of victims’ interests in the government’s priorities”

is appalling, and she criticised the UK Government.

That is not just our view; it is the view of victims too. My constituent Sarah, who reported being sexually abused by her doctor, had her truth misbelieved and mistrusted in court. She was stripped of her dignity in the witness box, and was subjected to vicious public humiliation and personal attacks in the so-called pursuit of justice. She told me:

“I felt like I was being publicly beaten and humiliated. I wouldn’t advise anyone to go through it”.

In Wales, many of the services are the responsibility of the Welsh Labour Government, yet the overarching justice system is at the mercy of this Tory Government. We must recognise the scale of the challenge we face. It is clear that the UK Government’s current approach is not working. They must work with the Welsh Labour Government to see how things can be managed in the future, and above all ensure that victims come first. We must focus not on where but on how justice is delivered.

The probation system in Wales was brought to its knees by a failed privatisation, based on the untested and untried payment by results system. The Tories were repeatedly warned that it would not work, but they persisted anyway. The Welsh Labour Government have done their best to mitigate the worst of the impact across the justice system, but the only solution is to have a UK Labour Government in Westminster working with a Welsh Labour Government in Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady is making important points that obviously would need to be debated if there were time, but do the Labour Opposition in Westminster support the Welsh Government’s call for the devolution of justice? At the time of the development of the Wales Act 2017, they were opposed to it.

[Anna McMorrin]

The right hon. Gentleman is getting ahead of himself, although I absolutely hope that there will be a UK Labour Government shortly. We in UK Labour are working closely in partnership, as we would in government, to ensure that the best justice system is focused not on where justice is delivered, but on how it is delivered. That is done in partnership, and the details must be worked out.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Anna McMorrin]

That is absolutely not being delivered by this UK Government, who have systematically broken the criminal justice system. It is appalling. Day in, day out, I speak to victims who are suffering and traumatised, and who have been retraumatised by the justice system that this UK Tory Government are presiding over. Only one in 100 rapes recorded by the Welsh police resulted in a charge last year, let alone a conviction.

[Alun Cairns]

What is Labour’s position?

[Anna McMorrin]

The right hon. Gentleman should listen, rather than chuntering away on the sidelines.

One victim, Rachel, told me:

“They didn’t treat me as a human being”,

as she relived her traumatic experiences in the justice system. She felt that the system was worse than the rape itself.

On International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, the crime survey for England and Wales released its latest figures, showing that 1.7 women experienced domestic abuse in the past year alone, but everyone knows that the true number is much, much higher. According to figures reported by the BBC, about 60% of women in custody across the UK have experienced domestic abuse.

In May, the then Justice Minister, the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins)—I have lost count of how many Justice Ministers we have had since—finally announced the pilot for the women’s residential centre in Swansea. That came four years after the Government originally announced it in their female offender strategy, even though they labelled it a priority, and the centre will not actually open until 2024. Across Wales, there are a total of zero female estates, and recent Cardiff University research shows that last year 218 Welsh women were sent to prisons in England.

This Conservative Government’s priorities have never been on the side of victims, and they continue to treat vulnerable women as an afterthought. Labour has long argued for facilities for vulnerable women with complex needs who would otherwise be sentenced to custody. They need a safe and secure facility that is fit for purpose, and that allows them to maintain contact with their families, especially their children. Shockingly, as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) pointed out, Wales has more people in prison than almost anywhere in western Europe. All the evidence shows that a sentencing policy that is based heavily on punishment, deterrence and imprisonment is counterproductive.

Energy Costs in Wales

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered energy costs in Wales.

On our first day back in Parliament this term, this debate on energy costs in Wales is hugely timely. We are facing a national emergency. People are scared, cold, and paying the ultimate price for the energy crisis. I am therefore grateful that the Minister is in his place to listen to us discuss the very real issues that people are facing across the country, but it would be remiss of me to start without calling out the recent incompetent actions from the UK Government. In just a few short weeks, this Tory Government have plummeted millions of people into hardship and misery—the choice between heating and eating, going to bed cold and hungry or giving their child their last tin of food. The shockingly mishandled emergency Budget was inexcusable. It has seen the pound plummet, energy costs spiral, mortgages pulled, interest rates shoot up—and for what? Unfunded tax cuts for the richest 1% in society and bigger bankers’ bonuses.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. In addition to that tirade of comments, will she recognise that the energy price guarantee is the most generous across all the major developed nations in Europe?

[Anna McMorrin]

I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention, but providing that is the very least that could be done in the face of all this incompetence, quite frankly.

The result of this reckless decision will be felt by households across the country for years to come. It is always the most vulnerable who pay the highest price for the political choices made by this UK Government. In Wales, people are worried sick. Thankfully, our Welsh Labour Government have shielded so many from the very worst, but the crippling energy crisis is hard to undo when action from Westminster is worsening by the day. The human cost of such decisions cannot be overstated. At the launch of the Institute of Health Equity’s fuel poverty report last month, Professor Sinha said there is “no doubt” that children will die this winter. Damaged organs and respiratory illnesses are just some of the many long-term health impacts that people will face, and the trauma of going to bed cold and hungry will stay with someone for life.

I was speaking to the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children just this morning, and it told me how heartbreaking it is to receive calls through its helpline from children who really do not know what to do or how to help their parents, as they witness them struggle to make ends meet, often while living in cold, damp and mouldy conditions. I, too, receive heartbreaking calls from struggling parents just trying to do their best, and from distraught constituents torn between losing their home and losing their business. A pub in the heart of Cardiff North told me that it literally cannot afford to keep the lights on and is moving to using candlelight after receiving a £24,000 energy bill. My constituent Rebecca, a talented jeweller and silversmith, runs a small business on top of doing three other jobs. She faces a sixfold increase in her electricity bill. Her partner, Gareth, who contacted me worried sick, said, “What are we working for if not a better future?”

Well, that better future is being carved out by our Welsh Labour Government, with £51 million of targeted support for those who need it most. Measures include doubling the winter fuel support payment, cost of living support payments, £4 million for fuel vouchers, a heat fund to support those on prepayment meters, and the roll-out of universal free school meals. That is the difference that a Labour Government make. The Welsh Labour Government understand the human cost of this crisis. Perhaps the Prime Minister should pick up the phone to our First Minister for the first time after all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) on securing this important debate. I look forward to the contributions of all Members, because this is a serious issue that needs addressing in a serious way. In the spirit in which I congratulated the hon. Lady on securing the debate, I am bit disappointed by the party political tone that it has taken. These are genuine, serious issues that need addressing. Constituents are looking to politicians to find the best response to a genuine energy supply crisis and its sources, which we will come to in a moment. I am disappointed that the debate has been so party political so far, but I will try to move it on in a way that might be helpful to constituents who listen.

[Anna McMorrin]

I think the right hon. Gentleman failed to hear what I actually said. I was clarifying what the different Governments provide and setting out the human cost of what is happening because of the political choices made by the UK Government and this Prime Minister. I sincerely hope he can understand that.

[Alun Cairns]

I will respond to some of the points that have been made, but we need to recognise that the absolute cause of the challenge is the war in Ukraine and Putin’s aggression. Anyone who seeks to weaponise the increase in energy prices for political ends is undermining the war effort and Ukraine’s right to defend its nation. It is a serious issue, but that does not mean that we do not need to react.

The Government are reacting. We need to recognise some of the things they are doing and congratulate them, but there will be other areas where we want to press for further support. That is an intelligent way to pursue a debate, rather than saying that everything politicians in Cardiff Bay are doing is right and everything those in Whitehall are doing is wrong. That is simply not credible and it is not the case. I am disappointed that the war in Ukraine is being weaponised in this way.

Just weeks ago, we saw the explosions at Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, which were clearly attacks, although we have no certainty about the reasons for them or their source. They have had an impact on supplies across Europe, but thankfully supplies to the UK do not come from Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, and are therefore much more secure. I underline my interest as chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for energy security. It would be helpful for us all to recognise that energy is traded at a multi-national, if not a global, level. That is part of the complexity of the situation, rather than the simplicity that has been described.

Constituents want to know exactly what support they will get. Everyone will get a grant of £400 in addition to a council tax rebate of £150 for properties in bands A to D. There are also additional payments, including a cost of living payment of £650 for benefit claimants, a one-off payment of £300 for pensioners for heating, and a disability cost of living payment of £150. Those payments will alleviate the situation and make sure that some people are able to keep the fires burning. They may have formed the impression that they could end up in an extremely unfortunate situation, but they may well be able to avoid that, depending on their individual circumstances.

The energy price guarantee announced a couple of weeks ago is an extremely welcome measure, and it would be helpful for the Opposition to recognise that. I press the hon. Member for Cardiff North to acknowledge that it is the most generous package that has been offered across Europe. I am happy to be corrected if the hon. Lady wishes to intervene, but independent sources say it is the most generous package in Europe, which means that people in similar circumstances in Europe will find themselves worse off. I am not saying that is a good thing; it is not a good thing. More needs to be done to support everyone—not only across Europe, but well beyond—because the conflict in Ukraine has created a global challenge.

The energy consumption of an average property will cost £2,500. There is a lot of misunderstanding about that. People will pay depending on their energy consumption and that figure is an average cost, which is provided as a guide. It is a significant increase, but lower than it would otherwise have been without the energy price guarantee, and the additional payments will support people and allow them to cope with those increases.

I find it difficult to believe that everything the Welsh Government are doing is right and everything Whitehall is doing is wrong. On the one hand, the hon. Member for Cardiff North claimed that people were living in cold, damp and uninsulated homes—and many are and we need to recognise that—but then seemed to champion the insulating programme and schemes that the Welsh Government have been pursuing. It cannot be one or the other; we must recognise that it is a complex situation and that people are finding themselves in difficult circumstances.

I find it difficult that the wider public debate makes such an issue of a public information campaign. This debate could serve as a public information campaign in itself if it were conducted in a reasonable and intelligent way. We need to recognise that this issue is rightly dominating the news and people should be able to interpret that large increases in energy prices will mean consumption needs to be managed to prevent cost of living challenges. In addition, information is being made available by the Energy Saving Trust, Ofgem and so many other agencies and charitable organisations. I would much prefer that the money that would have been spent on a public information campaign is spent on supporting people to reduce their bills, rather than on duplicating and repeating what we could do and what is available freely on the internet.

I ask the Minister for guidance on two points. I have already highlighted the domestic levels of support that are available, and they are significant, but we need further clarity on park homes. It is not clear how they will be able to benefit, because of how their meters work compared with others. I recognise that this is the first day that Parliament is sitting and therefore it has not been easy to communicate all the messages that need to be communicated, but there are a number of park homes in my constituency and across the whole of the UK—Wales possibly has a disproportionate number of park homes—so further clarity would be helpful. Reassuring messages have been given, but it is helpful to have the mechanics of how it should work.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin]

I will gladly come to the examples of where the Welsh people are being robbed. This UK Government are offering to provide money to Wales to improve infrastructure, but that is an illusion. They have failed systematically to support electrification of the railways, for example, and renewable energy schemes. I see the right hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) in his place. Time and again, he sat in front of the Welsh Affairs Committee and failed to provide an answer for the lack of support for projects across Wales.

Time and again, this Government have come up short. They block and they deflect; they buy themselves time with controversy to mask their inability to govern, to provide or to collaborate. That is what this Bill should be about.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady and I share an ambition to see great investment projects in Wales, but I am sure that she would accept that we should invest only in projects that are value for money for the taxpayer. Furthermore, she talks about the successor to European aid. My understanding is that the UK Government have not yet outlined how exactly the shared prosperity fund will work. All this power does—all this legislation does is give additional powers to the UK Government. Surely, additional spend in her constituency and mine is something we should both welcome.

[Anna McMorrin]

The right hon. Gentleman’s slip-up—“All this power does”—had it spot on. That gives away the fact that this is exactly about political opportunism. We know that this Government want only to dangle the illusion of financial assistance, which we all know will be directed towards marginal seats or to prop up their pals. They do so at a time when Ministers are not just prepared but willing to break international law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Anna McMorrin]

I will not.

The UK Government must think again. How far are they willing to threaten peace, erode co-operation and strip devolved Governments of their decision-making powers? And how far would they be prepared to accept lower standards of food and medicines and thrust them on the people of all four nations—all at the hands of just a few unscrupulous Government Ministers and unaccountable aides?

Ford in Bridgend

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Monday 10th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making those points. The investment at Ellesmere Port is clearly important not only to his constituency but to the north Wales economy, where many of the employees will come from. Vauxhall, of course, has committed to investing in Luton, and we continue to discuss and attract further investment by Vauxhall, but this commitment demonstrates its interest and recognition of the UK workforce’s expertise, both at Ford in Bridgend and in and around the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I will happily meet him to discuss specific actions being taken that could also support his constituency.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

This closure is devastating news for families across Wales, including those affected in my constituency and across the whole of south Wales, and for the supply chain businesses affected, as a huge number of people are involved in the supply chain. The Secretary of State is wholly wrong to rule out Brexit being a causal factor in this decision. The former First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, said today that closure was “never on the agenda” during his very recent private discussions with Bridgend Ford. So can the Secretary of State please rule out a no-deal Brexit and the irresponsible message he is giving to every manufacturer across the industry, across the UK and across Wales today? Will he give that assurance to the car industry and to everyone?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady suggests I am wholly wrong to rule out Brexit as a cause, but those are not my views; they are the clear statements that have been made by Ford, both in private and in public. There would be much greater credibility in the statements being made by people seeking to make party political advantage out of this position, which is disappointing, if Ford was moving its operations to the European Union. Clearly, Ford is not doing that; it is moving the engine manufacture to Mexico, which clearly highlights that this is nothing to do with our exit from the EU. She asks me to rule out no deal, but in order to rule that out, you presumably need to vote for a deal, and I have done so on each and every occasion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

10. My constituent’s restaurant business is under threat because of this Brexit chaos. His Polish and Hungarian staff, who have been with him from the start, have left, and the pound is plummeting, causing huge challenge to him. Does the Secretary of State believe that this chaotic Brexit is really making Wales a more attractive place for visitors?

[Alun Cairns]

There is absolutely no reason why those employees should have left, because we have respected their rights. I only hope and wish that as we continue to negotiate, all the rights of UK nationals living in the European Union will be respected in exactly the same way. The hon. Lady voted against the Prime Minister’s deal with the European Union, and by doing so she is making no deal far more likely. So I would encourage her to look objectively at the data, and to support the meaningful vote when it comes up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on (a) the economy and (b) public services in Wales of the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

As we leave the European Union, our economy is growing faster than the eurozone, employment is at record high levels, and economic activity in Wales is at the highest level since records began.

[Anna McMorrin]

May I associate myself with the Minister’s comments on Steffan Lewis, who was one of the most able and talented politicians that Wales has ever had?

With days to go until we crash out with no deal, we know the devastating impact. The CBI is warning us, the Army is on stand-by to slaughter lambs set for export, and the Government are refusing to rule out no deal. What does the Minister say about that, given that the Prime Minister is not going to get her deal through?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has set out our position and is determined to work not only on our side of the House but across the House to introduce proposals that will allow the House of Commons to support a deal. It is interesting that the Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford, is prepared to meet her to discuss the proposals, but the Leader of the Opposition refuses to do so, in spite of being more than happy to meet the IRA on other occasions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

14. What recent assessment he has made of the effect on the Welsh economy of the time being taken to legislate on the UK leaving the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The agreement reached between the UK Government and the Welsh Government on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill will ensure that we exit from the EU with the certainty and continuity that businesses and communities across Wales have called for.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman is looking at the opportunities that leaving the European Union provides. Obviously, exports from Wales to the rest of the world are expanding at a much quicker rate than exports to the European Union, which demonstrates that businesses are already looking to those new opportunities, and more Members are looking to those opportunities as we have them.

[Anna McMorrin]

My constituent Damian Harris owns a cycle shop in Cardiff North but is struggling because of the uncertainty caused by Brexit. Twenty-nine of the 30 bikes he stocks come from the EU and, at the very least, he needs a customs union to have any sort of viable future. We are now hearing that 60 Tory MPs are plotting to sink their own Government to force the Prime Minister to abandon any form of customs arrangement. Will the Secretary of State guarantee that he will work with the Welsh Government and speak up against that decision? A low-skilled workforce and—

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the need for hard negotiations and discussions about what the facts are. Many claims have been made, but ultimately it comes down to whether the case provides value for money. As I have said many times, we must ensure that large-scale projects provide value for money for taxpayers and consumers. My hon. Friend will remember the very difficult decision the Welsh Government faced when they decided to cancel the Circuit of Wales in Blaenau Gwent. Despite wanting to do something, they knew ultimately that it was not good value for money, as the numbers proved.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State tell us when he has accepted an invitation to an Assembly Committee? On the tidal lagoon, does he agree that this is not just about a one-off project that will create valuable renewable energy; it is about the knock-on effects throughout south Wales, the technology that will be created and all the other tidal lagoons that will be created as a result?

[Alun Cairns]

I appeared before the Assembly’s External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee just a few months ago. I have been in front of them on a number of occasions.

The hon. Lady will have had a close relationship with the Circuit of Wales and the challenging decision that that involved. The principles behind the Circuit of Wales decision apply equally to the value for money of any major infrastructure project. As we analyse the numbers, I am sure that she and other Members would not want to see investment that was not good value for money for the taxpayer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Anna McMorrin and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

12. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union on the potential effect of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill on the economy in Wales. [R]

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Before I reply to the questions, let me welcome the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees), back to her position. I wish everyone Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda for the coming season.

I hold regular discussions with the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and other Cabinet colleagues about our exit from the EU, including on the Euopean Union (Withdrawal) Bill. My right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State and I recently met local government leaders in Wales to discuss the issues that affect them as we leave the European Union.

[Alun Cairns]

We have already undertaken to honour the commitments made on EU structural funds until we leave the European Union, and we are seeking an implementation period that may well also involve such commitments. We have a manifesto commitment to create a UK shared prosperity fund, and I will ensure that Wales has its fair share.

[Anna McMorrin]

The fact that this imperialist UK Government have excluded the Welsh Government from Brexit is putting at risk the devolution that has lasted for 20 years. The Welsh Government have always played an integral part in EU negotiations. Will the Secretary of State commit himself to continuing that well-established practice and avoid a constitutional crisis by ensuring that the Welsh Government are directly involved in both Brexit and trade negotiations?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the tone or the content of what the hon. Lady says. It should be recognised that the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is largely technical, but we are deeply engaged with the devolved Administrations, particularly the Welsh Government. Only a week or so ago, the First Secretary of State and I met the First Minister, and yesterday we had a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee—in which a further ongoing warm relationship was developing—with the aim of securing the right deal that works for every part of the United Kingdom. It is, of course, in my and the Welsh Government’s interest to ensure that Wales is well represented.