Ann McKechin
Main Page: Ann McKechin (Labour - Glasgow North)Department Debates - View all Ann McKechin's debates with the HM Treasury
(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Iain Stewart
There will be huge consequences, some foreseen, but others unforeseen. We would need to undertake a huge amount of research to work out how to begin to disaggregate what has been a unitary UK tax system. I am not saying that it is impossible, or that it is something that we should not look at in future, but for the purposes of the Bill, I do not think that it is necessary, because clause 24 makes provision to look at devolving additional tax powers in future.
I am not going to say anything more at this point, because I want to deal in detail with other measures when we come on to the relevant clauses. Scottish National party Members have made a point about air passenger duty and landfill tax. I am perfectly content that measures are being negotiated at European level and elsewhere. Until they are resolved, it would be premature to include the devolution of those taxes in the Bill. I accept that the Calman view was that those matters should be devolved in the fullness of time, and I support that, but it is not necessary to include it at this point. I am therefore afraid that I cannot support the amendments if they are pressed to a vote.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
What a difference a week makes, as we continue our scrutiny of the Bill after our sitting last Monday. On Thursday, we witnessed a plenary debate in the Chamber at Holyrood on the recommendations in the report on the legislative consent motion. At the conclusion of the debate, there was a vote, and we witnessed a remarkable about-turn, as the Scottish National party supported the motion recommended in the majority report. After two years of sniping on the sidelines, it has joined the three other major parties in Scotland to support the Bill, and I genuinely welcome that.
Who is surprised at the pattern that has emerged yet again? This is a party that did not join the constitutional convention, but supported the devolution referendum. It came into power four years ago, promising that its top aim above all others was a referendum on independence, which was then dropped. The interesting allegations in Wikipedia about the First Minister’s comments on the party’s real aims, rather than all-out independence, add to the mix the overwhelming conclusion that it can talk about independence as much as it wants, but the SNP has never been on the true side of the people of Scotland, which is why it constantly has to play catch-up.
We have had an interesting debate about fiscal decentralisation.
Stewart Hosie
I am intrigued by the hon. Lady’s introductory remarks. They bear no relation to the amendments, but that should not surprise us.
There is indeed a very serious matter at stake. We have tabled an amendment to devolve the aggregates levy, which is a recommendation by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and by Calman, and will make the Bill better. If we can divide the Committees, will Labour join us?
Ann McKechin
We certainly support the principle of devolving the aggregates levy, but I wish to make sure that when we scrutinise the Bill we do so in the interests of the people of Scotland. There is genuine concern about court proceedings—interestingly, the hon. Gentleman failed to mention the comments by the British Aggregates Association in the report on the legislative consent motion, which said that it was sure that it was going to win the court case. Well, we will just have to see when that case comes to court. However, I would not want a Scottish Administration to be responsible for the risks that may result from a loss in that case, because that would not be in the interests of the Scottish taxpayer.
The report by the Holyrood Committee offers an exceptional exposition of the contentious remarks made over a number of years by the Scottish Government about why fiscal decentralisation would be to the benefit of the Scottish economy. We support the measures in the Bill, because we believe that they will make the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament more accountable to the taxpayer. They already benefit from uniquely broad spending powers, and the Bill rightly makes that power more accountable to the electorate. However, as the Committee knows, the Scottish Government argued prior to the establishment of the Committee at Holyrood that full fiscal decentralisation would grow the Scottish economy by an extra 1% per year. I refer hon. Members to paragraph 37 of that report, which states that
“the First Minister’s claim—of an additional 1% growth per year—is an exaggerated version of what Professors Hughes Hallett and Scott have stated in their research.”
The Committee concluded that the evidential base for the statements made by Professors Hughes Hallett and Scott was, in its words, “remarkably weak” and that claims did not stand up to scrutiny. The Scottish Government did not provide any detail in the legislative consent motion.
Fiona O'Donnell
Is my hon. Friend aware that when the Scottish Affairs Committee played good cop to the Holyrood Bill Committee’s bad cop, Professors Hughes Hallett and Scott went as far as to say that there was no real link between fiscal autonomy and economic growth, and that it is what is done with the powers that achieves growth?
Ann McKechin
My hon. Friend raises a pertinent point and one which even those who have argued for fiscal decentralisation admitted in Committee, including Ben Thomson from Reform Scotland, who had been a firm advocate of that policy. It was stated that all the evidence showed that it is the powers that are available and how they are used, and factors that are not purely fiscal, such as technological progress, investment in human capital and policies on education, that largely determine economic growth. Many of those powers are already with the Scottish Government.
Stewart Hosie
The hon. Lady asserted that no information had been provided. The Scottish Government provided an extraordinary amount of information, much of it at the request of the Scottish Affairs Committee, and all of which, I understand, is in the annex to the full report that it published, so that assertion was wrong.
Ann McKechin
The hon. Gentleman did not refer to any of that evidence in support of his amendments. He also did not refer—why would he; it would be too embarrassing—to the purpose of the national conversation, which the Scottish Government instructed, and the many position papers that civil servants were struggling to produce and make sense of, at considerable cost to the Scottish taxpayer at a time when the resources could have been much better used.
The hon. Gentleman provided us with no independent evidence or statistics showing how, if fuel duty is devolved to the Scottish Parliament, it will result in a benefit to the taxpayer. The matter is urgent and we require immediate action. That is why we have called on the Chancellor to reverse the Tory-led Government’s VAT rise immediately and to suspend the fuel duty rise due in April. That would provide immediate relief to taxpayers and to drivers right across Scotland. That is the best way we can help people with motoring costs now.
The Calman commission recommended that the power on aggregates be devolved. We support that principle. The Government have indicated their intention to devolve it, presumably on the assumption that the court case will be decided in the Government’s favour. I would welcome the Minister’s comments when he replies, to confirm that that is still the Government’s intention.
It would be helpful to the Committee to understand what progress has been made on the Government’s review of air passenger duty, when they think that review will be complete, when they expect to be able to devolve the tax and whether they still wish to maintain the scheduled date of 2015.
New clause 17 relates to corporation tax, which the Scottish Government have been talking about for a considerable time. The pertinent questions that we all must consider carefully are what exactly does the SNP wish to do with the proposed power, where does it see the revenue gain coming from, and on what evidence is that based. Do we follow the Irish example of having a super-low rate, or do we follow the view of the SNP in Edinburgh and have retail business levy proposals, which were very badly thought out and arbitrarily proposed without consultation? Are we a high-tax or low-tax nation? Do we believe in high-quality, good value public services, or do we want to have a lower public expenditure base?
Some people believe that Ireland is an exact example for Scotland, but I argue that it certainly is not. Sadly, we no longer have the arc of prosperity argument from the Scottish Government. Nevertheless, it is important to note that when Ireland introduced its policy it was in a very weak economic position and the loss of revenue was relatively small, but that would not be the case for Scotland, which has a well-developed economy. If corporation tax is devolved, EU state rules require that the devolved Administration must not be protected from the revenue consequences of their decision.
It is clear that cutting corporation tax rates will cut revenue, at a minimum for some years, as suggested in the Exchequer evidence to the Holyrood Committee:
“A 10% cut in corporation tax in Scotland might cost about £600 million per year for an indeterminate period.”
The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has not specified what figure his party proposes for corporation tax, what loss to the Exchequer will result and when his party believes it will recoup the loss. No one in Scotland will want us to vote on the issue until we have the pertinent answers.
The CBI and other business organisations have firmly stated that they are against differential rates within the UK. Many of the experts who gave evidence to the Committee in Holyrood noted that it would create economic distortions—the brass-plating of booking profits through Scotland by manipulating transfer pricing. I refer Members to paragraph 54 of the Holyrood Committee’s report, which states:
“The Committee does not believe that Scotland should seek to maximise its tax income by becoming a tax haven for companies operating elsewhere in the UK.”
I entirely agree with that approach.
Some evidence was given regarding the example of Switzerland, which has a highly federalised and separate tax system in its various cantons, but the Swiss example points out that that would tend to lead to lower public expenditure. Is this what the SNP proposes for Scotland? The people of Scotland need to know whether the answer is yes or no. Paragraph 494 of the Committee’s report states that Professor Anton Muscatelli noted that the Swiss example is one where there has been
“a shift from corporate taxation to personal income taxation.”
He also pointed out that that is a volatile tax.
Hon. Members will be aware of that volatility, which occurred after the 2007 fiscal crisis. The major payers of corporation tax in this country are our banks and financial institutions. They took a huge hit in 2007-08 and onwards. The cost for the Scottish public amounted to £10,000 for every man, women and child in Scotland. Where would those funds have come from if the Scottish Government had had to bear the entire cost? Is the SNP willing to allow Scottish public finances to take that level of risk? Is it saying that it wishes to see a cut in taxes on banks? Yes or no? We have had no answer to that either. Labour has argued that the banks are not paying an appropriate share towards deficit reduction in this country and has again called today for the bank levy to be increased in the Budget.
In paragraph 505 of the Holyrood report, Professor Iain McLean, whom the hon. Member for Dundee East quoted, points out that the Northern Ireland experience between 1920 and 1972, when corporation tax was devolved, was marked by widespread tax avoidance.
Many similar questions need to be asked, but at the end of the day the SNP has failed to say what it wants to do with the tax, what kind of tax regime it wants in Scotland and what it proposes in relation to bank taxes: is it for lower or higher taxes? Today, there has been the sound of deafening silence.
I have a number of questions to ask the Government about clause 24 itself. They have still to respond in detail to the Holyrood Committee’s report, and given the timing of next week’s Budget I am sure the Exchequer Secretary has many other things in his basket. Does he not agree that, given the considerable number of points that the report raises, we can anticipate at least some substantive amendments from the Government? If so, does he agree that, to ensure the maximum amount of democratic scrutiny, they should be tabled prior to Report, not simply left until the Bill arrives in the House of Lords?
Last week, the Government announced a consultation on the so-called Cadder clauses, which, as the Exchequer Secretary is aware, were not part of the original Calman commission. That consultation will continue until mid-May. Does he not agree again that it would be better to postpone Report until it is complete in order to allow us properly to scrutinise in the Commons this important legislative and constitutional reform?
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)
On the issue of section 57(2) of the 1998 Act and the new clause or amendment that we will table to it, the hon. Lady is aware and has rightly highlighted that we are undertaking a consultation. I am happy to say to her in public what I have said privately: she and members of other parties are very welcome to have discussions with officials to ensure that Members are aware of how that thinking is developed. Just to reassure her, anything that is introduced in another place will come back here for proper and thorough scrutiny in due course.
Ann McKechin
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his remarks, but I would prefer to have the earliest possible scrutiny in the House of Commons, and I certainly hope that the House will be allowed at the very minimum a proper period in which to scrutinise properly any amendments or new clauses that are introduced in the House of Lords, because this is an important constitutional issue. It is technical, but it is important that this House has the time to debate and scrutinise it properly, and that the public and the electorate know that we have scrutinised it appropriately.
Do the Government agree with the Chartered Institute of Taxation that a mechanism might be required to ensure that any future Scottish provisions do not conflict, and to consider how future UK treaties and EU rules might affect the powers that we provide to Scotland in the Bill?
Proposed new section 80B of the 1998 Act appears to include the possibility of devolving aggregates levy and air passenger duty in future. Will the Government confirm that the Scottish Parliament has a formal standing in consenting to the Orders in Council referred to in that section? Air passenger duty might be considerably altered by the time the review is complete, and that could be of significance to the revenue that can be anticipated from Scotland. Air travel in Scotland has its own distinct features, particularly within Scotland itself and to the north and isles areas, so it is important that there is a full and proper discussion not only here in the Houses of Parliament, but in the Scottish Parliament, should there be any difference in the levy’s impact on the Exchequer.
On the calculation of the block grant, will the Government consider the Holyrood Committee’s proposals that the reduction in grant might be indexed to changes in the income tax base for the rest of the UK? Will they consider also the principle of a formal review of the grant reduction mechanism after 10 years, as the report recommends? If Ministers were able to give us an indication of the Government’s view, that would be helpful. What consideration have the Government given to the Holyrood Committee’s recommendation that the transition period for the income tax powers and the calculation of the block grant reduction be reduced or done away with in its entirety if, for example, the measures on the tax base are implemented? Finally, what consideration have the Government given to the recommendation that while a flat-rate structure should be adopted initially, this decision must be carefully evaluated as experience is gained of operating it? That simply follows from the experience of other devolved Administrations in dealing with income tax.
I would welcome the Minister’s comments. We will vote against any move by the SNP on fuel duty or corporation tax. Apart from that, we will support the Government’s clause.
Stewart Hosie
Let me respond briefly to some of the key points raised. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) talked about a fuel duty regulator, as he has done on a number of occasions. He knows very well the difficulties faced by hauliers and others in the south-west of Scotland. He asked whether I would give up on the proposal in this place if it were delivered in Scotland. I said in my speech that if the UK Government would not deliver it, the powers should be devolved, so that the Scottish Government could act. I simply want fair play on fuel. It is important that the power should be devolved, so that the Scottish Government can act if the UK Government will not.
The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) made an interesting speech, as she always does. She valiantly tried to defend the lack of Labour attempts to strengthen the Bill. She spoke in favour of Calman, but rejected one of the key Calman recommendations, which was the aggregates levy proposal. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) also made an interesting speech. She raised the notion of—I think—a £600 million loss every year if there was a 10p cut in corporation tax. No one has ever suggested an immediate 10p cut in corporation tax. That was a straw man, set up to be knocked down, and bears no relation to the policy of any party in this House.
Ann McKechin
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could clarify what rate of corporation tax he would propose if the power was devolved.
Stewart Hosie
I would like it cut over a number of years, taking the benefit of the announcement effect and taking advantage of the experience of other countries, where, with modest changes on a downward spiral in corporation tax, the business tax yield has increased. That is very sensible and is, I think, what the current Government have in mind.
Let me turn briefly to what the Minister said. He said that the proposal would provide around one third of Scotland’s budget. That is similar to the figure of 35% proposed by the Calman commission, but that included all the revenue proposed by Calman, much of which is not in the Scotland Bill. That figure was also calculated on a baseline that excluded capital expenditure from the Scottish budget. The Minister will find that the actual percentage share is considerably lower. He said that the Government would never seek to devolve taxes on a whim. Let me assure him that we would certainly not want to do that either. We would want to devolve taxes only to provide balance and a basket of taxes to mitigate any volatility, which may well arise when the bulk of our assigned revenue comes from a single, personal tax.
I am not convinced by many of the arguments I have heard. There is a very strong case indeed for trying to push forward with the Calman proposals, particularly on the aggregates levy, so I intend to divide the Committee on amendment 58, but for now I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: 58, page 16, line 17, at end insert—
‘(c) Chapter 5 provides for an Order in Council to specify, as an additional devolved tax, a tax charged on quarrying or mining,’.—(Stewart Hosie.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Ann McKechin
I should like to ask the Minister a couple of questions about this clause, which is technical in nature and will enable HMRC to disclose information to the Scottish Ministers. Given the terms of the Holyrood Committee’s report on the appointment of an additional accounting officer responsible for Scottish income tax, and the duties and accountabilities of HMRC, should that proposal be put on a statutory footing? That question was raised by the Committee, and I should be grateful for the Minister’s response.
Will the Government also consider the Committee’s recommendations that the work of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Office for Budget Responsibility be subjected to audit in respect of aspects of devolved taxes? If it is subject to audit and the Government have thought about it, I should be grateful to find out whether, in order to facilitate proper accountability to the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, it should be carried out by the National Audit Office or the Auditor General for Scotland, or both. It is important to clarify these points at an early stage. In debating the previous group of amendments, the Minister spoke about the new Treasury committee between the UK Government and the Scottish Government, but I am sure that Select Committees in this House and those in the Scottish Parliament will want to have an opportunity to look into this work and, where necessary and when the clauses are implemented, to review the work of HMRC. At this stage, I would be grateful for any further clarification from the Minister.
Mr Gauke
I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) for her questions. We do not believe it is necessary to put the additional accounting officer on a statutory footing, but let me repeat our assurances, which I hope will satisfy the hon. Lady. She asked detailed questions arising from the Holyrood Committee report published last week and she will not be surprised to hear that I believe we can look at this matter within the bilateral Exchequer committee. I understand her desire to have greater clarity as soon as possible, but it is important to get the matter right. The committee will have an opportunity to meet shortly after the formation of the Scottish Government, and I hope we will be able to make some progress on some of those detailed points.
Clause 25 is a technical provision. It enables HMRC to share with the Scottish Government information about the collection and management of devolved taxes, while ensuring the confidentiality of that information. I thus believe that the clause should stand part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 26
Scottish rate of income tax
Ann McKechin
I beg to move amendment 68, page 18, line 11, after ‘may’, insert
‘after consultation with such persons as Scottish Ministers consider appropriate’.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Charles Walker)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 69, page 20, line 5, after ‘may’, insert
‘after consultation with (a) Scottish Ministers, (b) the Scottish Parliament and (c) such persons as it considers appropriate’.
Amendment 70, page 20, line 21, leave out subsection (4).
Government amendments 61 and 62
Amendment 43, page 20, line 35, after ‘Treasury’, insert
‘, with the consent of the Scottish Parliament,’.
Amendment 44, line 38, at end insert—
‘(6A) For the purposes of subsections (4) and (5)—
(a) reference to the consent of the Scottish Parliament means consent by resolution, and
(b) standing orders must provide that only a member of the Scottish Government may move a motion for such a resolution.’.
Government amendment 63
Amendment 47, clause 29, page 23, line 12, after ‘Treasury’, insert
‘, with the consent of the Scottish Parliament,’.
Amendment 48, line 28, at end add—
‘(7) For the purposes of subsection (4)—
(a) reference to the consent of the Scottish Parliament means consent by resolution, and
(b) standing orders must provide that only a member of the Scottish Government may move a motion for such a resolution.’.
Government amendment 64
Amendment 49, clause 31, page 24, line 8, after ‘Treasury’, insert
‘, with the consent of the Scottish Parliament,’.
Amendment 50, line 8, at end add—
‘(5) For the purposes of subsection (4)—
(a) reference to the consent of the Scottish Parliament means consent by resolution, and
(b) standing orders must provide that only a member of the Scottish Government may move a motion for such a resolution.’.
Government amendments 65 and 66
Government new clause 18—Orders
Ann McKechin
I am speaking to amendments 68, 69 and 70 and I wish to put it on record that the wording of those amendments was suggested by the Law Society of Scotland. I shall speak to the amendments first and then to the clause stand part—with your agreement, Mr Walker. I have a substantial number of questions to put to the Government about the implementation of this important clause.
On amendment 68, new section 80C empowers the Scottish Parliament to set by resolution the Scottish rate of income tax. This is an important power that is required to be exercised in accordance with the principles set out by the consultative steering group report published by the Scottish Office in 1999. These principles include accountability, openness and accessibility with a view to making possible “a participative approach” to “policy and legislation”. Accordingly, Scottish Ministers should, we believe, be required to consult those considered to be appropriate when proposing the resolution for the Scottish rate—much in line with existing practice of the Treasury here.
On amendment 69, new section 80G enables the Treasury to disapply or modify section 6 of the Income Tax Act 2007. This could involve issues such as gift aid relief or pensions relief. The order would be introduced in the UK Parliament and debated and passed or rejected in the UK Parliament. However, it could substantially affect the Scottish rate and Scottish taxpayers, as well as Scottish charities and pension funds, so we believe that Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament should be specifically consulted prior to any amendment of these reliefs.
Finally, amendment 70 takes out subsection (4). We have concerns about the provision. Section 80G(4) provides that an order made under that section
“may, to the extent that HM Treasury consider it to be appropriate, take effect retrospectively”.
We believe that HM Treasury should, at a minimum, consult Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament if retrospectivity is required. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me say that I think all Governments should avoid retrospective legislation whenever possible—unless there is a proven and specified need. We think that the case for retrospective application in this instance has not yet been made out.
The amendment is designed to probe this issue. The Scotland Office has indicated that the power would be used to make tax reliefs applicable retrospectively, but I suggest that this could be done either by regulation or statutory instrument. The clause enables a charging order to be made by the Treasury, which is a matter of concern to us. Any retrospective action by the Treasury could—I stress could—have a detrimental impact on individual taxpayers and on the Scottish parliamentary budget. I hope that when the Minister responds he will provide some assurance about the circumstances in which and when the Government intend to use this power. I hope he will confirm how limited the power will be when it comes to its practical exercise.
Paragraph 673 of the report by the Holyrood Committee asked a number of questions about residence. The question of residence is one about which most of the tax experts we consulted expressed some concern. I understand that there is no statutory definition of a UK resident taxpayer. This legislation, however, attempts to define by statute a Scottish resident taxpayer. Given that that is, in a purely technical sense, a subset of a UK resident taxpayer, I think the Minister would accept that it is unusual to have a fixed statutory definition within a floating definition. I would like to question him a bit further about how this will work in practice and what the levels of risk are in respect of the current application of the law.
Paragraph 673 of the Holyrood Committee report asks what “place of residence” means, as defined in clause 26, as it appears to be different from how residence is understood in other areas of tax law such as capital gains tax. Does place of residence imply ownership when juxtaposed against “main place of residence” in new section 80E(a), (b) and (c)? Place of residence and main place of residence are not defined in that new section, which I fear could present problems of interpretation. I would be grateful if the Minister clarified his understanding of the interpretation in this case.
How the tax is to be applied in practice is an important issue. The vast majority of Scottish taxpayers live the whole period of their lives in Scotland or live there for very substantial periods, and it is relatively easy to define who those people are. What about people working on board ships or on oil rigs, for example? What about members of our armed forces and what about those who are neither UK resident nor employed by non-UK employers? As I said, the Scottish taxpayer is defined by reference to an individual who is resident in the UK for income tax purposes. The current definition of UK residency lies in 86 pages of guidance that are the subject of frequent revision by HMRC. How, then, can the Government be confident that this definition is going to work? Do the Government agree with the Chartered Institute of Taxation that the introduction of a possible statutory residence test for the UK is now essential? Experts in, for instance, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, the Chartered Institute of Taxation, the Federation of Small Businesses and CBI Scotland have expressed concern about the lack of a concrete definition. What are the Government doing to address those concerns expressed by professional experts? I understand that they are considering the issue. Will the Minister tell us whether they are likely to attempt to provide a better definition of a UK resident taxpayer in the Finance Bill that will follow next week’s Budget statement?
John Stevenson
The hon. Lady has raised many issues connected with income tax. I may be demonstrating my ignorance of the Scotland Act 1998, but under that legislation the Scottish Parliament could have increased or decreased the basic rate by 3p. Why were these issues not addressed then?
Ann McKechin
I was not a Member of Parliament at that time, unlike some of my colleagues who were in the House when the legislation was discussed in detail. I think it fair to say, however, that a great deal was left to the potential for secondary legislation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, those provisions have never yet been used. That is one of the reasons that the Calman commission specifically addressed the issue of fiscal accountability.
The hon. Gentleman may also be aware of recent debates in the Scottish Parliament following the decision of the Finance Secretary—without informing the Parliament—to advise HMRC that it would not be required to implement the rules for a few years. I do not wish to discuss that controversy, but I will say that the establishment of the Calman commission was partly due to the fact that the rules had never been implemented. Much of the detailed work that we are now considering had been put on the shelf without being properly examined. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I think it necessary for me to ask the Minister a number of detailed questions in order to ensure that the Government’s intentions are on record.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Given that income tax issues such as this are addressed throughout the world where jurisdictions—for example, American states—abut each other, does the hon. Lady consider them to be reasons for fundamentally objecting to the Bill, or simply matters of minor detail that could be resolved by means of secondary legislation?
Ann McKechin
As I have made clear, on Second Reading and throughout this debate, Labour fully supports the principles behind the Bill and the additional fiscal powers given to the Scottish Parliament. Before the election, the Labour Government supported the Calman commission, as we made clear in a White Paper published in the summer of 2009. I think that all these issues can be dealt with, but, as I am sure accountants and lawyers will confirm, the devil is in the detail at times. It is important for the House of Commons and, no doubt, the House of Lords to give the Bill proper scrutiny, because ultimately individual taxpayers, businesses and employers will have to live with the consequences of its implementation.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Is it not worth reminding the Committee that, no matter what was said in 1997, the Opposition voted against it?
Ann McKechin
Indeed, and the fact that we now have converts to the cause shows what a difference the passage of time makes. As I said earlier, I am pleased that even the SNP has agreed to the LCM motion.
Our present approach is consistent with the approach that the Labour party has always taken to constitutional reform, which is to seek political consensus before introducing legislation in the House of Commons. The reason we have such a degree of consensus this evening is that we have spent a good deal of time examining details of the legislation. I congratulate the Holyrood Committee, which has done an excellent and thorough job in examining many of the issues in great detail. We all benefit from its work and from last week’s debate in the Scottish Parliament, which showed that the Scottish Parliament and its Committees are more than capable of doing a thorough job in scrutinising legislation.
I should be interested to know whether the Government agree that the retrospective application of an order could adversely affect the budget of the Scottish Parliament. For example, if the Budget is set in March and the Treasury lays an order in October to apply a relief clause retrospectively, that could have grave implications for the Scottish Government’s budget. That is another reason why I seek some reassurance about the Government’s intentions for the use of this clause.
How do the Government propose to deal with avoidance of the Scottish tax rate? Unlike other jurisdictions that have devolved taxes, and where there are different forms of collection and reporting, many people self-assess or are in pay-as-you-earn schemes, and they are not currently specifically called on to declare their residence to the tax authorities in the way required by the Bill. The Bill’s provisions only apply to income; they do not apply to dividends or to interest on savings, and we would want appropriate measures to be taken to ensure that people do not end up transferring income into another route, to try to avoid the income tax provisions made by the Scottish Parliament.
What provisions have the Government put in place for the self-employed? Will, as anticipated, the self-assessment tax return have to be altered, with additional questions on residency for example, particularly for those who work in a different part of the UK? I realise there are specific measures dealing with Members of Parliament and we are automatically included, but it has been pointed out that Scottish judges serving at the Supreme Court are not covered by the Bill’s provisions. Similarly, other senior Government officials travel from different parts of the country for their work. It is important that they are aware of what may be expected of them in terms of self-assessment claims.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Many of the hon. Lady’s comments imply that she is unhappy with residency being the method for working out where people pay tax, but it seems to me that there is no alternative. Is her position that she would like everybody to fill out a tax return?
Ann McKechin
No, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I do not want to burden the taxpayer unnecessarily with additional questions and pieces of paper and that I think the residency basis is the simplest way to deal with this issue. The problem is that we have a floating definition of a UK resident taxpayer, and from that we are trying to define in very exact terms a Scottish resident taxpayer. That is the point at which there could be challenges, and sometimes mischief in that people might try to change their declaration of where they believe they are resident.
This situation is unlikely to arise for the vast majority of taxpayers in Scotland; most of them will be faced with a very simple exercise. Nevertheless, as I have pointed out, in other jurisdictions with devolved income tax there are ways in which people have to declare where their residence is that we currently do not have in the UK. I want the Minister to say whether the Government are aware of any potential problems, and what measures they intend to put in place to avoid them, so that the maximum level of tax that is due is collected and returned to the Scottish Government, and so that administration is kept to a minimum. All hon. Members will be concerned about the cost to the Exchequer, and also about the costs to individual businesses. That is why I am asking these questions, but I agree that residency is the easiest way to define who should be liable to tax.
I also appreciate that a decision has been taken not to include interest on dividends and on savings. People will comment that that perhaps creates a degree of unfairness because some individuals get the majority of their income from those sources, but I acknowledge that there are complex and expensive practical difficulties in applying a residency test for those types of revenue, and that ultimately the benefit may not be great. We therefore understand why the Government have phrased the clauses in this way, but the devil is in the detail of defining exactly what they will mean in practice.
Stewart Hosie
The hon. Lady will understand that there is a very close relationship, particularly at the lower levels of income, between dividends and savings income, income tax and, as importantly, income tax allowances and thresholds. We have not tabled amendments on this topic, and it is extremely complicated, but if it were proved that there is an inherent logic in bringing together income tax, the tax on savings and dividend income, and how that relates to thresholds, allowances and the Scottish rate, might the hon. Lady and her colleagues be prepared to listen to that argument in future?
Ann McKechin
The Holyrood Committee did not consider that in detail, and the Calman commission did not make any specific recommendations that would lead us to legislate tonight. We have to reach a compromise in respect of striking a balance between fairness to Scottish taxpayers and having a system that is as simple and easy to understand as possible, and that reduces the administration costs to the Scottish Government as far as possible.
On thresholds, given that the Welfare Reform Bill has just been introduced with proposals on universal credit at the same time as this Bill is passing through the House, I ask the Government to say what consideration has been given to the impact on welfare benefits. Those on low incomes often have the most complicated tax affairs. Most benefits are calculated on after-tax income. If the Scottish rate income tax is higher than the basic rate, Scottish taxpayers on benefits will be entitled to claim more benefit. Will the Government ensure that the extra benefit is paid automatically, or will they issue public information on how full entitlement can be claimed? How will the new proposals on universal credit be implemented in respect of these tax changes? The Government have stated that their general rule on the tax base is one of no detriment, but I ask the Minister to reflect and give any assurance he can about whether there might be a possible conflict.
Conversely, if the Scottish tax rate is lower than that of the rest of the UK, Scottish taxpayers on benefits will be entitled to fewer benefits in some cases. What mechanism will the Government put in place to ensure that adjustments are made to their payments? We would be concerned if those on the very lowest incomes were adversely affected in their entitlement to the welfare benefits system. That is largely based on the national insurance system of course, which is separate from the tax system, but, as the Minister will be aware, the interaction between benefits and taxes is complex, and I am sure none of us would want to do this in a way that adversely impacts on pensioners, people on lower incomes, single parents, the disabled and others who may already have many concerns about what is being proposed in the Welfare Reform Bill. I hope the Minister can reassure us that he will not be adding to that burden.
Are the costs of implementation still as estimated in the Command Paper? How do the Government intend to control those costs? There is a long period of implementation, and hon. Members may be concerned about that, as some implementation schemes have taken longer, and been much more expensive, than originally estimated. Will the Minister tonight undertake to produce an annual report to the House of Commons until the full-scale implementation of the scheme, so that we may better scrutinise it, and ensure that value for money to the taxpayer is maintained and that the burden—which, of course, is ultimately to be met by the Scottish Government—is kept to a minimum?
Iain Stewart
I support the clause, but I wish to raise a couple of specific examples just to test that the definition of a Scottish taxpayer as set out in the Bill is robust and covers all eventualities. I appreciate that the examples I am about to give are technical, and if the Minister is unable to give me a definitive response tonight, I hope he will be able to do so on Report.
My first example is based on the situation my father was in for a number of years. It relates to proposed new section 80E(3)(c) on the definition of Scottish residence, as opposed to residence of another part of the UK. My father’s home was, and is, in Hamilton, just outside Glasgow. By any reasonable test, that is his main residence: it has been the family home for generations; my mother lives there; and it is what my father would call home. However, for a number of years he worked for the Civil Aviation Authority and although he was mainly based at Prestwick, the nature of his job required him to spend a considerable amount of time at its headquarters in London. He rented a flat in central London, where he was registered on the electoral roll for council tax, for utility payments and for all the other aspects of living in a dwelling. For a number of tax years he spent a majority of nights in London, as opposed to spending them at the family home in Scotland. Therefore, if I have read proposed new section 80E(3)(c) correctly, he would not be deemed to be a Scottish taxpayer. I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm whether that is the case. If so, is this not an anomalous situation and will the Government re-examine what the definition of “a Scottish taxpayer” should be?
Secondly, I wish to discuss the “Caledonian sleeper” question, which relates to proposed new section 80F(1)(a) and the number of days spent in Scotland
“at the end of the day.”
I do not have a detailed knowledge of the railway timetable, but let us suppose that the sleeper train left Glasgow at 10.30 pm or 10.45 pm and so was clearly in Scotland at the end of the day. If it traversed the border before midnight and so was actually in England on the stroke of midnight, would that day be counted as Scottish or English for the purposes of this calculation? I hope hon. Members will forgive me for raising this very detailed point, which will affect only a small number of people, as it is the job of this Committee to tease out these practical matters. I do not expect the Minister to give me a definitive reply right now, but I would be grateful if he undertakes to examine the matter and give an answer at a later stage in our proceedings.
Mr Gauke
I will come to condition C in a moment, which I hope will provide the hon. Gentleman with the answer that he and others are looking for.
Having dealt with condition A, it would be remiss of me not to address condition B. It is possible for some people with two or more places of residence in the UK to be unable decide which is their main place of residence. I do not think that that applies to Mr Stewart senior, but it might apply in some cases. It is for such people that condition B has been designed. Someone who cannot determine under condition A which part of the UK they have a close connection with will need to count the number of days they spend in Scotland, compared with the number of days they spend elsewhere in the UK—in other words, a straightforward day count test. If they spend more days in Scotland than they do elsewhere in the UK, they will be a Scottish taxpayer. If they spend more days elsewhere in the UK than they do in Scotland, they will not be a Scottish taxpayer. We recognise that it might be onerous in some cases to have to keep a day count record, but the number of people within that category should be relatively few.
To deal with one question that my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) raised, for the purposes of the day count, an individual has spent a day in Scotland or in any part of the UK when they are present at the end of the day—in other words, at the stroke of midnight. That is consistent with the existing and long-standing rules that determine presence in the UK for the purposes of tax residence.
Condition C, which I suspect is of particular interest to a number of hon. Members, is set out in proposed new section 80D of the 1998 Act and is very straightforward. If someone represents a Scottish constituency in the Scottish, UK or European Parliaments for any part of the year, they will be a Scottish taxpayer for that tax year, provided of course they are UK resident, which I assume will generally be the case. The definition has also been designed in such a way that an individual will be a Scottish taxpayer for a full year. They cannot be a Scottish taxpayer for part of the year and not a Scottish taxpayer for the rest of the year. That again helps to reduce unnecessary complexity in applying the definition and understanding of whether or not an individual is a Scottish taxpayer.
It is envisaged that the new Scottish rate of income tax will first be applied from 6 April 2016, as we have already heard. There are more than five years before the provisions take effect, and during that time we will continue to discuss with businesses, employers, taxpayer representatives, charities and software providers the necessary practical steps to achieve a successful implementation. The measure will need to work successfully throughout the UK tax system, as it will not impact on Scottish taxpayers or on Scottish employers alone.
HMRC has therefore established three technical groups with representatives throughout the UK, including a pensions group, charities group and an income tax group. Those groups are reporting to the high-level implementation group, which the Secretary of State and I established last summer. We are discussing with the technical groups the implementation issues—for example, the application of differing rates throughout the UK on tax relief for contributions to pension schemes and on gift aid. It is also conceivable, given the lead time to implementation, that there might be changes in the business or tax environment or to processes.
As we discussed when considering the earlier amendments, the clause includes a number of supplementary powers to allow certain modifications to be made at a later date—for example, enabling certain types of income or relief to be included or excluded from the Scottish rate to provide the flexibility to respond to stakeholder input and to the changing environment.
I shall pick up on some of the questions that I have not dealt with in my explanation, which I hope the Committee has found helpful. A worker who spends significant amounts of time on an offshore oil rig or another place of work off the UK coastline will not usually need to count the number of days they spend there to determine whether they are a Scottish taxpayer. The oil rig is not likely to be their sole or main place of residence in the UK, so any time spent on it can be disregarded when deciding whether they are a Scottish taxpayer. The only exception is if the location of the individual’s main place of residence is genuinely unclear. In such cases, whether someone is a Scottish taxpayer will be determined by the day count. If the oil rig is in Scotland, those days will need to be included for the Scottish count.
We continue to look, with the Ministry of Defence, at the issues surrounding our armed services, and we will come to a firm conclusion on that in the near future.
The question was raised of whether a personal representative of a deceased person will be a Scottish taxpayer, and the answer is no. A Scottish taxpayer will be an individual, and after their death that will not extend to the personal representative. It follows that any income arising during the administration of the deceased’s estate will not be subject to the Scottish rate of income tax.
I was asked whether it was fair that people will not receive split-year treatment when they move between Scotland and the rest of the UK, and I touched on that briefly a moment ago. No split-year treatment applies to those leaving or arriving in Scotland: an individual will be a Scottish taxpayer for a full tax year or not at all. There is no prospect of double taxation when someone lives part of the year in Scotland and the rest of the time in another part of the UK. It would be administratively much more complex were we to try to split the year.
On whether proposed new section 80G is too broad, that goes back to my earlier discussion of the amendments in this group. The power in the new section is needed to deal with mainly technical changes and to decide which reliefs should be taxed at the variable or UK rates. That is almost a mirror image of the power to deal with the consequences of setting the Scottish variable rate, which is already in section 79 of the 1998 Act. It is worth pointing out, as I said earlier, that we have set up three technical committees, on charities, pensions and income tax, to discuss the impact that the Scottish rate of income tax will have on the wider tax system, and to consider where modifications might be required. Therefore, we need the power to deal with that situation.
I reassure the Committee that the Treasury does not seek a general power to impose retrospective legislation; the measure set out in proposed new section 80G is limited to the start of the tax year. If we need to make a consequential change, we will ensure it takes effect at the same time as the provision to which it is consequential. We think that that will be helpful.
A point was made about what HMRC and the Government will do to support employers, and about the concern that the measure might be administratively difficult for employers when identifying who is and is not a Scottish taxpayer. Let me assure the Committee that it will be HMRC’s responsibility to identify who is and is not a Scottish taxpayer. Scottish taxpayers will then be given a Scottish tax code by HMRC, and employers will use it in the PAYE system, just as they do with other employees. It is also worth mentioning that there will be an awareness campaign in Scotland and in the rest of the UK ahead of the system’s introduction.
The rights of appeal will be based on existing mechanisms, but they might need to be adapted, and HMRC will discuss that with the professional associations in due course through the technical groups that it has established. The self-assessment form for the self-employed will need to be altered to reflect the existence of Scottish taxpayers.
On condition C, which applies to Members of Parliament and of other elected bodies, the question was asked, “Why not Scottish judges, other senior members of the Scottish civil service and so on?” We have singled out only elected representatives; others will be subject to the same rules as other Scottish taxpayers. We think it appropriate that there is no ambiguity in the case of elected representatives, and those representing Scottish constituencies at whatever level should be Scottish taxpayers.
That is a rather lengthier speech than I had hoped to make, but a number of questions were raised and I wanted to provide as many answers as possible to what is one of the most technically challenging aspects of the Bill. The solutions that we have reached are those that improve what we are building on, and they should provide as much clarity as possible.
Ann McKechin
May I welcome you to the Chair again on this Bill, Ms Primarolo? I also thank the Minister for a full explanation of the various technical measures, and for his response to the questions that have been raised in the debate. I appreciate that it might not have been the most exciting debate; indeed, it might have rendered some Members closer to sleep than the Caledonian sleeper could have done. Nevertheless, it is important that we have on the record the Government’s response to a number of key questions that, when we come to implementation, will impact on many hundreds of thousands of people. It is important that we have as full a picture as possible in our debate this evening.
I accept the Minister’s comments about amendment 68 requiring the Scottish Government to consult such persons as they consider appropriate. The taxpayer would anticipate and expect the various business organisations and tax specialists who are generally consulted by the UK Treasury as a matter of routine and good practice to receive the same approach and level of consultation from the Scottish Government. I am sure that the Scottish Government, of whichever political hue, will want a full consultative process. The Minister noted that the Scottish Parliament has a specific power to lay this down in Standing Orders, and I hope that it will give recognition to what has been said in this debate.
Mrs McGuire
Does my hon. Friend recognise that the situation can be further complicated if one asks where they come from?
Ann McKechin
Yes, indeed.
That brings us to how the questions are phrased on any self-assessment form and the guidance that is provided to individual taxpayers and to their employers. Obviously, employers will have a high level of responsibility in advising their staff about whether they will be covered. The Minister cited the example of a travelling salesman, but there are many other examples of staff who travel the country from time to time. Some people’s lives are entirely peripatetic—entertainers, for instance. I remember many years ago, when I was a lawyer, acting for entertainers who spent the summer season living down in Blackpool and then came back up to Scotland for the winter season.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady recall the leading case on residence in Scots law—Udny vs. Udny—in which the fact that the person in question, despite having a house in England, continued to take The Sunday Post every week proved that he was still domiciled in Scotland?
Ann McKechin
Indeed. The hon. Lady attracts me into an interesting debate on the difference between residency and domicile, but I am not going to bore the Committee—I can see that the Under-Secretary is getting a bit concerned—about the distinction between the two. That sort of thing keeps tax lawyers very busy.
Jim McGovern
Surely my hon. Friend would agree that going to Blackpool in the summer guarantees that one is Scottish.
Ann McKechin
Indeed. Travelling down there on the train to the Labour party conference on a Glasgow holiday weekend was an interesting experience. One could easily distinguish between those who were delegates and those who were on their holidays. I remember one occasion when people had brought along half a band, which was playing on the train.
The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) and others commented on the Caledonian sleeper. Let me say that the Caledonian sleeper provides an essential travel service for many of us, and long may it remain so, because otherwise our travel plans would be even more difficult than they are given that certain flights will be withdrawn at the end of this month. That brings to mind a story that I recall being told about a colleague who represented the city of Glasgow many years ago, and who was a member of the railwaymen’s union. He regularly managed to sleep on the train. One night, he asked the guard to make sure that he was taken off the train at Motherwell, not Glasgow, because he had to address a union meeting just before the workers went on shift. There would be several hundred people there, and it was absolutely essential that he got off. He duly woke up in the morning and found himself at Glasgow Central station. The guard opened the door and said, “I know you’re really angry, but you’re not as angry as the man we shoved off the train at Motherwell.” I am sure that there are many such stories about Members of Parliament.
I note the Minister’s comments regarding residency of Members of Parliament. Some people might think we are getting special preferential treatment so that we can easily distinguish whether we are UK tax residents who are not living in Scotland or vice versa. However, I do not object to the definition. Perhaps it makes things a little easier if, when the Bill becomes law, we are asked awkward questions about our own position. I am sure that some of the points raised today will be considered by implementation committees.
On the Minister’s comments about armed forces personnel, we need to be able to define this at a fairly early point. It would be preferable if at some point during the passage of the Bill—certainly before it comes back from the Lords—we knew about the position of the armed forces. Will the Minister ask his colleagues to ensure that we have a definitive response before we reach our final conclusions on the Bill?
The Minister’s comments on amendment 70 were helpful in defining the circumstances in which retrospective amendments may be made. I acknowledge that there will be limited circumstances where that is appropriate. Given the timing of the Budget, it is almost inevitable that this may occur from time to time. His clarification helped to show that he regards this as a de minimis clause rather than one that will be used to the maximum extent. However, I hope that he can assure us that Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Government will be provided, at the earliest opportunity, with information about how this is likely to impact on them. Perhaps it is part of the Exchequer’s standard consultation process and pre-Budget report that it is fully engaged with the Scottish Government so that they are able to make appropriate contingency plans should a clause in the Finance Bill then be passed by this House and by the House of Lords.
I believe that we have had a reasonable level of reassurance from the Minister on those questions. These are primarily probing amendments. Accordingly, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 26
Scottish rate of income tax
Amendment made: 61, page 20, line 31, after ‘Treasury’, insert ‘by order’.—(Mr Gauke.)
Amendment proposed: 42, page 20, line 31, after ‘Treasury’, insert
‘, with the consent of the Scottish Parliament,’.—(Stewart Hosie.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Ann McKechin
I wish to ask the Exchequer Secretary a couple of questions about this technical clause. Can he confirm how deductions for pension contributions and gift aid will be made? Will the taxpayer be able to choose the order of deductions against various sources of income?
The Scottish Parliament will need to know the size of the tax base before setting the rate. Will the Government undertake to ensure that they give the Scottish Parliament, as well as the Scottish Government, early notice of changes in the level of income tax personal allowance and thresholds? I asked that question in relation to clause 26, but it is important to have the earliest possible consultation and information given not only to the Scottish Government but to the Scottish Parliament.
Mr Gauke
I thank the hon. Lady for her questions. If somebody is classed as a Scottish taxpayer, they will be liable for income tax at Scottish rates on the income that they receive from their pension. We recognise that the treatment of reliefs associated with pension contributions is complex, and our approach will be set out in implementing legislation. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has set up a pensions technical group to consider those very issues, and it is examining the practical questions surrounding the new Scottish rate and will make its recommendations in due course. Those recommendations will inform the implementing legislation. There are some potentially difficult administration issues to consider, and HMRC is working with the sector to keep the administrative burdens to a minimum.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 28
Scottish tax on transactions involving interests in land
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Ann McKechin
Again, I should like to ask the Exchequer Secretary a couple of technical questions about the implementation of the clause. He has defined in proposed new section 80J(2) the people who will not be liable to pay the tax in question. Perhaps he could clarify for the record that that relates to people acting in their official capacity, and that if they happen to have property in Scotland on a personal basis, they will still be liable for the tax.
Will the Government undertake that they will not appoint the day on which the tax powers will come into effect until the Scottish Government confirm that they have satisfactory legislation in effect? I realise that the proposed implementation date is 2015, and perhaps the Exchequer Secretary could confirm that that is still the Government’s intention. It is important that people with an interest in property have an early indication of when they can expect the tax to be changed.
Mark Lazarowicz
I, too, have a couple of questions, and I would be most grateful if the Exchequer Secretary could deal with them. Does he believe that the provisions of the clause mean that the tax will be applied at the same rate throughout Scotland, or will it be possible for different rates to apply to different parts of Scotland? At the moment, for example, there are times when stamp duty land tax is waived for certain areas that require special assistance. Could that still apply?
Will the Scottish Parliament have the ability to delegate the power in clause 28 to local authorities, for example, so that varied rates could be offered? I am aware that that would not normally be permissible, but the Exchequer Secretary will certainly remember the debate about the possibility of a local income tax in Scotland a couple of years ago. There was a suggestion that if the Scottish Parliament introduced such a tax, it would be ultra vires. That was never tested, because of course the legislation never went through. The suggestion was that a local income tax could give local authorities the power to levy income tax through the back door. Similarly, it could be suggested that they be given the power to vary stamp duty land tax if the Scottish Parliament allowed them to do so. I would very much appreciate some guidance on those points.
I do not want to skip ahead to clause 30, but the same question applies to tax on disposals to landfill—will there be a Scottish rate, or could it be varied? Perhaps the Minister could give me the same reply to deal with both clauses.
Ann McKechin
I welcome the clauses relating to borrowing powers. We agree that they make sense in terms of both short-term revenue and capital.
In paragraph 597 of its report, the Holyrood Committee accepted that
“Given its responsibility for macroeconomic management”,
the United Kingdom Government
“has a proper interest in the flow of borrowing”.
We agree with that. However, there is a worthwhile discussion in the report about evidence from the Government and other experts relating to the overall level of borrowing, both short-term and on the capital account, and we think that the Government should consider the Committee’s arguments. It did not identify an alternative figure, but made some suggestions that we think worthy of consideration. I ask the Government to confirm that they will examine the report in detail, and will take the earliest opportunity to present their assessment to the House of Commons or the House of Lords. I note that the Scottish Government will be able to borrow from commercial lenders as well as from the National Loans Fund, and I welcome that as well.
The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) should be careful. I assume that his are primarily probing amendments, and I think it right to test some of the issues discussed in the Holyrood Committee, but as well as looking for the benefits, he must accept the responsibilities of the Scottish Government for overall public sector borrowing limits. Although we may disagree with the Government on what those limits should be and on the scale of the deficit reduction, we accept that as an important criterion in the debate.
Stewart Hosie
I am sure that the hon. Lady will want to be generous and accept that I made it clear on two occasions that affordability and sustainability must be taken into consideration. No one wants to do anything silly with the public finances.
Ann McKechin
That marks a first. I cannot recall the Scottish Government asking for less money. I seem to remember that when Labour was in government, they kept asking for more money and saying that they did not have enough.
The hon. Gentleman made a comment about the deficit. Before 2007 it was about 2%, which was perfectly manageable within the fiscal settlement. The increase in the deficit was primarily caused by the banking crisis, which was an international crisis as the hon. Gentleman accepts, and by the fact that we stimulated the economy, which he also accepts, although he said we should have stimulated it even more. He cannot have his Dundee cake and eat it, however. He either accepts one interpretation of what happened, or he accepts the interpretation of the coalition Government, which we believe to be false.
The hon. Gentleman raised a number of queries about the Holyrood Committee recommendations, particularly in respect of the requirement that the first £120 million of any tax shortfall must be met by spending reductions in the year in question. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain the rationale for imposing that. I think that measure is in the Command Paper—it is not in the Bill itself, of course. This issue is of particular concern in the light of the Government’s decision to abolish the end-of-year flexibility scheme at very short notice this year, which will cost the Scottish budget an estimated £23 million.
When the Minister gave evidence to the LCM Committee, he drew a distinction in respect of end-of-year finance arrangements, but at no point did he intimate that the Government or Chief Secretary to the Treasury had decided that they would be gobbling up the £23 million as part of the deficit reduction plan. That raises concerns about the nature of the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Government in the so-called respect agenda. Will the Minister confirm at what point this issue was raised with the Joint Ministerial Committee and the Scottish Government? Why was no mention made of this when he and the Chief Secretary were giving evidence to the LCM Committee? Again, this is about trust and the maintaining of good governmental relationships. As I have mentioned before, it is key that that is maintained to the highest degree in these clauses.
There have been issues to do with the Government’s criterion of setting a limit of £2.2 billion for capital expenditure. There are some very good suggestions in the Committee’s report about increasing borrowing capacity, which we think are worthy of consideration.
Finally, as the Minister will be aware, my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have called for the borrowing powers to be brought forward from the proposed implementation date of April 2013 to April 2012. Given that we anticipate that this legislation will be on the statute book by the end of this year and before the next financial year, I can see no good reason why the power cannot be advanced to April 2012, which, as the Minister will be aware, is within the current comprehensive spending review period. That would assist the Scottish Government —of whatever political hue—in making appropriate planning decisions after the election. If the Minister could give an early indication that the Government are minded to bring forward the introduction of this power to 2012, that would be widely welcomed. I therefore hope he can give the Committee one positive piece of news tonight.
Mr Gauke
I propose to deal with amendments 51 to 57 first, and I recognise that, as has been said, they partly overlap with the report from the Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland set out last week, the UK Government will consider the recommendations in the Committee’s report thoroughly, alongside an assessment of the impact on the UK fiscal position.
The purpose of amendment 51 is twofold. First, it would remove the requirement for Scottish Ministers to access revenue borrowing to meet current expenditure only in accordance with rules determined by the Treasury. Secondly, it would allow such borrowing to be accessed due to a shortfall in outturn receipts against forecast receipts from devolved taxes and the Scottish rate of income tax. I will deal with each of those in turn.
On the need for borrowing by Scottish Ministers to comply with rules determined by the Treasury, I note that the report from the Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament—where the Scottish Government voted with the motion—recognised the need for the UK Government to constrain the borrowing powers. I am delighted that there appears to be a consensus in the Committee that nobody wants to do anything silly with the public finances, as one could have been forgiven for thinking that that has not been the case over recent years.
There are important reasons for Scottish Ministers to comply with Treasury rules on borrowing. The Bill’s new borrowing powers will sit within the UK fiscal framework as a whole; interest on Scottish borrowing will be included in the total UK public sector borrowing aggregates. As overall macro-economic policy will continue to be a reserved matter, it is necessary for the UK Government to set controls and limits on the borrowing powers in order to retain overall control of UK borrowing, protect overall economic stability and minimise fiscal risks to the UK Exchequer. This Government believe that the specific terms and conditions set out in the Bill and the Command Paper strike the right balance between protecting overall levels of UK debt and increasing the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament.
On the second point, I wish to thank hon. Members for bringing an important discrepancy to the attention of the Committee. Although the Command Paper was clear that revenue borrowing would be used to meet current expenditure because of a shortfall in receipts compared with forecast in devolved taxes and the Scottish rate of income tax, the Bill was not so clear. The Government will therefore introduce their own minor and technical amendment on Report to include the Scottish rate of income tax alongside devolved taxes. In conclusion, given the continued control by the Government over the UK fiscal mandate and the fact the Government will be introducing their own amendment in respect of the second issue, I ask the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) to withdraw the amendment.
Mr Gauke
The hon. Gentleman sets the position out well, and I do not disagree with him. The Bill essentially sets out a base for current and capital borrowing. It can be increased, and there is a mechanism in the Bill to do so. We would need to look at the circumstances in future to see whether we could increase flexibility in that area. We have to bear in mind the state of the public finances and the importance of maintaining credibility.
Ann McKechin
I asked a question about the transitional borrowing powers that require Treasury consent, and whether the Treasury would be minded to bring them forward to 2012. The Minister has given conditions, which we accept would have to apply in the transitional period, but nevertheless that flexibility would be welcomed by everyone.
Mr Gauke
I note the hon. Lady’s comments. We are looking carefully at the recommendations by the Committee in the Scottish Parliament. We note her representations, and we will respond in due course. I wish to underline the fact that it is of absolute importance that we manage to maintain credibility, which is perhaps why there is less flexibility now than there may be in future. The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) suggested that there might be greater flexibility in future, but we would need to assess that nearer the time. However, I note the hon. Lady’s remarks on the transitional period for borrowing.
Amendment 57 is consequential on amendment 56. As hon. Members wish to remove the borrowing limits from the Bill and the ability to revise those limits with the approval of the House, clause 32 (10) would no longer by necessary as there would be no such secondary legislation. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) raised the issue of end-of-year funds across all the devolved Administrations and Departments amounting to some £20 billion. Such large sums of accrued EYF present a fiscal risk to the UK Government, which is why new arrangements will be detailed in the forthcoming Budget. I hope that that clarification is helpful.
I thank the hon. Members for the opportunity to set out the Government’s position on the important borrowing powers provided by the Bill. This has been a helpful and perhaps probing debate—we shall see. However, we do not accept any of the amendments, so I invite the hon. Member for Dundee East to withdraw amendment 51. For the reasons that I have set out, I hope that hon. Members agree that that clause 32 should stand part of the Bill.