Transport and the Economy

Angela Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

It is a great honour to follow the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman).

I want to comment principally on the “Transport and the Economy” report. The report recognises, of course, that for many years transport was like Cinderella, as it rarely came to the fore and was not regarded as one of the key parts of Government policy. That was true for many years, but there has been a sea change and there is recognition both in the report and in the actions of the previous Government and this Government that the performance of an economy can be directly related to transport.

Transport can undoubtedly boost growth and increase competitiveness, and one of the best policy interventions a Government can make is to ensure that the infrastructure allows industry to thrive. Some of the infrastructure not only benefits industry but improves the quality of life of a number of our citizens, although clearly it can be provided in a number of ways that differ not only physically but financially. Efficient infrastructure will allow efficient and cost-effective movement around national, regional, sub-regional and local networks—I think that that is implicitly recognised in the report. The fact that transport can boost the economy—the report questions its efficacy in some areas, which I wish to discuss later—is also self-evident.

Any report that links transport and the economy is welcome, but having read both the report and the Government’s response and having listened very carefully to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, I would like to address one or two areas of slight concern and some surprise. For instance, as the hon. Lady conceded, we are discussing this report some time after its publication and so a number of its explicit recommendations have, to the Government’s credit, been covered in a number of ways. Indeed, it seemed to me that the Government were already covering a number of the report’s recommendations at the time.

Let me pick out recommendation 5 as an example. It states:

“The Government must explain the nature of the economic solutions that it is seeking to deliver through transport spending and how the schemes that it is supporting will achieve these aims.”

By the time the report had been published, however, the Government had already set out those things through their transport business case. They have also set out quite clearly in their business plan some of their objectives for transport spending, as well as a vision for a transport system that is an engine for economic growth, and they have attempted to provide a greener, cleaner and fairer solution for our communities.

Moreover, during the previous Government's period in office, many of us on both sides of the House recognised that the formula that the Department for Transport was using to analyse a number of its schemes beyond the basic benefit-cost ratio, NATA—the new approach to appraisal—had a number of deficiencies. We should recognise that the Government have set out a more embracing framework for analysing infrastructure spending. Clearly, there are the four areas to consider: the economic case; whether there is commercial viability; whether a scheme is financially affordable; and, perhaps most importantly, whether a scheme is achievable. That sort of framework, beyond what was previously in place, should provide a greater degree of rigour, for there is now more than one test. There are not only the tests in NATA or the benefit-cost ratio but a number of tests which, added together, will give a transparent and more rigorous approach to the analysis of economic transport investment. I hope that such an approach will stay in place for some time, because one of the problems with transport investment has been that for an awfully long period in this country’s history there was complete inconsistency in approaches to what a scheme could deliver. I support what the Minister has put in place, and I hope he will ensure that it is enshrined and embedded for a long period.

I was somewhat surprised at the report’s conclusions about regional strategies and the removal of regional strategic development and development agencies. I listened very carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside and I almost intervened, but as I hoped I would have the chance of catching your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, I saved my remarks. I listened to the hon. Lady’s comments about what regional development agencies were doing for transport spending. However, I think the previous Transport Committee concluded in one of its reports—I forget which one—as did commentators up and down the country, that the variability among what RDAs delivered regarding transport was vast. It is fair to say that what the regional development agency did in the north-west in some of the delivery and spending on transport projects was well appreciated and supported. However, in other parts of the country, particularly the south-west, the RDA was felt to be failing almost everybody it attempted to help.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the arguments and strategies developed by The Northern Way, which brought together three RDAs in the north of England, made a huge contribution to the development of the High Speed 2 project and the northern hub?

[Stephen Hammond]

Indeed I do, and I thank the hon. Lady for making that point because it helps me to make my next point. One thing that this Government have recognised is that, although there was some mix of RDAs, the reality is that a differing of approach in different areas will be the solution.

I also think it is quite clear that the report has prejudged the efficacy of local enterprise partnerships. It seems to me that all the initial evidence, anecdotal though it is because they have been in place for so short a time, shows that they are taking their responsibilities towards transport seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Phil Wilson]

There may have been a lack of regulation, but we had a level of subsidy that had not been cut to the extent that it has been since, and some subsidies that were made available have been paid back to the Treasury.

[Angela Smith]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that the Local Transport Act 2008 brought back a level of regulation, but it was opposed by the Conservative party with which the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) is in coalition?

[Phil Wilson]

We can see from the lack of people on the Liberal Democrat Benches that this issue is not of particular importance to them. Whatever they said before the election, they are saying exactly the opposite today.

I have a constituent called Mrs Hardy who lives in Bishop Middleham. She has asthma and a heart complaint and has worked at the same place for 34 years. Now she cannot get a direct route to work and arrives an hour late, and the return journey that she has to make does not take her back to her own home. She is quoted in The Northern Echo as saying:

“I am now in the stressful situation of having to beg lifts from friends, colleagues and family and don’t know how I am going to get to work from one day to the next.”

Her story is not unique. However, with the help of Durham county council, I have been able to get Arriva to put on a couple of buses on workday mornings so that people like Mrs Hardy can get to work. That new regime starts on 19 March. Likewise, by applying pressure on Arriva, we have been able to redirect buses around Fishburn. However, that only partly solves the problem and is not the whole answer. There must be many more employees in my constituency who find themselves in such a position.

I have raised this issue with the Department for Work and Pensions. If somebody resigns from their job voluntarily because they can no longer get to work, they can no longer claim benefit because they are deemed to have resigned. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) responded:

“The Jobseekers Act (1995) provides that JSA will not be paid for a period between 1 week and 26 weeks to anyone who has lost their employment as an employed earner by leaving voluntarily without just cause.

The law does not provide guidance on how just cause should be interpreted because the circumstances in which employees leave employment are so varied.”

The Government need to do a bit of joined-up thinking on this issue because it affects many people in rural areas around the country, who we are perhaps not finding out about. This situation needs urgent attention. The Department for Transport needs to liaise with the DWP to find out the extent of the problem in rural areas. The problems with the buses in my constituency came to a head in the new year.

Last week, we found out from the Transport Committee report on the expenditure of the Department for Transport that the money was there to maintain the subsidy, but it was handed back to the Treasury. To use the Select Committee’s word, how “slack” is that? The Select Committee was surely correct to state in paragraph 11:

“Money voted by Parliament for expenditure on transport should be spent on transport, not handed back to the Treasury.”

My question to the Minister is whether, because the money has been there in the past, it will be there in the future. Will his Department push for extra funding for subsidies so that additional bus services can be provided in areas such as County Durham? There is a lot of talk about the need for growth in the economy. I respectfully suggest to the Government that it is a fundamental prerequisite of any economic growth strategy that employees are able to get to work.

The lack of understanding in this area does not promise much for the future. There seems to have been a fundamental failure in basic arithmetic. The Department has imposed deep cuts to bus grants, leading to the axing of dozens, if not hundreds, of bus routes and to steep fare hikes, only to end up with £543 million to spare. As a consequence, Durham county council and other local authorities are getting the flak for the cut in bus subsidy and the resulting cuts in bus services. My constituents have great difficulties in getting to work, to the hospital, to college or to see friends. The Department for Transport lost £543 million down the back of the sofa, just to find it and hand it back to the Treasury. Will the Minister therefore apologise to Mrs Hardy and the many others who are having difficulty catching a bus today because of his Department’s carelessness?

The letter from the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell also states:

“The matter of poor public transport in Sedgefield and County Durham”—

at least the DWP acknowledges that transport in Sedgefield and County Durham is poor—

“is a matter for the Department for Transport. I have forwarded a copy of your letter to that Department so that Ministerial colleagues are aware of your constituents’ concerns.”

Will the Minister tell me what his Department and the DWP are doing to alleviate the situation of poor public transport in places such as Sedgefield and County Durham? Is there any joined-up thinking in Government to alleviate this problem? Finally, what plans does the Department have to re-regulate or regulate more thoroughly bus services in rural areas around the UK so that people who have jobs can get to them?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Ashworth]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. To help other Members get in, I will take no more interventions. In answer to the hon. Lady, I recognise that concern, but on balance I think that HS2 is a good investment for the economy. However, I want to focus on the midland main line, if she will allow me.

I would be grateful if the Minister passed on my thanks to the Minister of State, Department for Transport, who last night kindly met me, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and the deputy mayor of Leicester, Rory Palmer, to discuss electrification. It was a good meeting, and I was grateful for the way she responded to our questions.

I would argue that electrification makes economic sense. The midland main line is the slowest northbound route out of London. It is the only main line to London that has not been electrified and where there are no immediate plans for electrification. Electrification would mean improved journey times, improved performance times and improved reliability. Crucially, electrification ought to provide good value for money: estimates show that savings in operating costs and increases in passenger revenues would greatly exceed investment costs. Full electrification along the line would reduce the costs of rolling stock, energy and maintenance and would therefore meet the aspirations of the McNulty review. It would bring huge benefits to cities such as Leicester and to the east midlands as a whole, as well as to Sheffield and South Yorkshire.

[Angela Smith]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the increased relationship between Rolls-Royce and Sheffield means that connecting Derby and Sheffield more efficiently would be good for the economies of both cities?

[Jonathan Ashworth]

I said that I would not give way again—my apologies, Mr Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend is quite right, though: Rolls-Royce is a major employer in Derby and elsewhere in the east midlands—in Hucknall, for example—and connecting Derby and Sheffield in that way is crucial for the economy.

One analysis has shown that the electrification of the line would benefit the economy by £12 million a year and by almost £450 million over the appraisal period, which makes an overwhelming case for it. It would also improve our links with Northamptonshire, making it easier for me to visit the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) should I wish to do so, as well as the links between Derby and Sheffield. All estimates suggest that the conurbations served by the midland main line are set to grow—between 2000 and 2010, the population of those areas grew by 300,000, and estimates suggest that it will grow by 800,000 by 2030—so in addition to the economic reason for the investment, there is also the simple reason of population growth.

The trains currently running on the route are diesels, and research suggests that CO₂ emissions could be reduced by 43,000 per annum as a result of electrification. There is therefore also a good environmental argument for pressing ahead with electrification. There is another strong value-for-money argument, which is that electrification would result in immediate job creation along the line, it would boost the economy, and it would help cities such as Leicester to attract more inward investment. I am sure that it would do the same for other cities in the region and in south Yorkshire. It would bring long-term advantages to Leicester and the wider east midlands, and it will therefore be crucial for our region in the next few years.

As I said, I am grateful to the Minister of State for meeting us last night, and I hope that the Under-Secretary of State replying to this debate will pass on my thanks to her. Last week, at Transport questions, the Minister of State told me:

“The electrification of the midland main line has been prioritised by the industry in its initial industry plan, which will form an important part of the decisions that we have to make on what will be funded in the next railway control period.”—[Official Report, 23 February 2012; Vol. 540, c. 1012.]

That answer aroused a great deal of excitement on that evening’s edition of the BBC’s “East Midlands Today”, and in my own fine newspaper, the Leicester Mercury. If the Under-Secretary wants star billing on “East Midlands Today” this evening, or in the Leicester Mercury, the Nottingham Post or the Derby Evening Telegraph, he need only get up and announce from the Dispatch Box that he is going to strike while the iron is hot, build on the profile that the Minister of State already has in the east midlands, and say yes to the electrification of the midland main line.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I start my short contribution by paying tribute to the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), who has shown astounding leadership for some time. I am particularly proud that this report is being debated today, as I was a member of the Select Committee when we first met after the election. Indeed, I was one of those calling for this inquiry, so I am particularly pleased to be able to contribute to today’s debate.

The report on “Transport and the economy” is an important one. We have heard broad statements and warm words from the Government for some time about transport and its role in supporting economic growth, but there is no sense of how their decisions on transport fit into a strategy, and no clear sense of how any particular scheme announced by the Government will fit into a strategy for economic growth. Nor is it clear how the Government’s decisions will help to deliver their stated intention of rebalancing the economy. I therefore welcome the report’s recommendation that a White Paper on transport and the economy be produced exactly to clarify that point. The report is important, too, because it makes clear that investment in transport infrastructure needs to be linked to plans for economic development. HS2 provides a good example.

The argument for HS2 is partly about capacity, so it relates strongly to the role cited in the Eddington report for transport investment to reduce congestion, thereby removing barriers to economic growth. HS2 is also about bringing economies across the country closer together, improving the dynamics of those relationships—in other words, the agglomeration benefit.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that unless some time line is put on extension of HS2 further north, there will be considerable cynicism in areas like the north-east that a great deal of investment will be made that will have very little economic impact on such regions?

[Angela Smith]

I wholly concur. In fact, if we are to maximise the agglomeration benefits of HS2, I would argue that the economies—from the far north to London and the south—that are linked by the HS2 line must have clear strategies in place for economic development in order that the transport investment represented by high-speed rail can perform to its full potential.

[Phil Wilson]

It is obviously vital that the HS2 route eventually reaches the north-east of England. I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of it, but Hitachi is building a train-building facility in Newton Aycliffe in my constituency. It has already said that if this project goes ahead, it will be bidding for the rolling stock.

[Angela Smith]

That illustrates my point about the need to have clear plans for economic development in place alongside plans for transport investment.

The report is also important because it points out very clearly that there is a lack of transparency and consistency in the decision-making process at the Department for Transport. Finally, it is important because it points out that the removal of regional structures created by the last Government risks creating a vacuum in effective planning for transport infrastructure.

I want to focus particularly on the report’s recognition that the Government should produce a White Paper explaining explicitly how their plans for transport investment will be linked to their plans for the economy more generally, and in particular explaining their plans for rebalancing the UK economy. Rebalancing is important not just to the economic development of areas such as the north-west and Yorkshire but to the whole country, including London and the greater south-east.

We need transport investment to maximise the potential for a more dynamic set of relationships between economies across the country. HS2 is a case in point. According to The Northern Way, its potential impact of £13 billion would deliver at least £3 billion of economic impact to the north. The point is, however, that its economic impact will affect the whole country, and therefore potentially benefits everyone.

What do we need if we are to rebalance the economy in transport terms? I believe that we need three things. First, we need more transparency and greater consistency in decision making, so that we can hold the Government to account in relation to their stated aim of rebalancing the economy. Secondly, we need political bravery: we need to use investment to maximise economic development in areas such as the north of England, and to remove barriers to growth in those areas. Thirdly, we urgently need to know more about how the Government will develop sub-regional, regional and even cross-regional structures enabling them to produce sound, well-thought-out strategies for the delivery of transport infrastructure.

The removal of the regional development agencies and, by definition, The Northern Way group of RDAs, has left a vacuum in regional planning, especially—as the report points out—in the context of their role in supporting regional economies. Moreover, the local enterprise partnerships have not been thought through. How will these new structures working at sub-regional and city-regional level work structurally across LEP boundaries to deliver what our regions need?

The north of England is a perfect example. As a result of The Northern Way and its superb work in developing arguments and strategies relating to transport, the case for the northern hub has been clearly made and accepted even by the coalition Government. The northern hub is needed, of course, to tackle congestion on the northern rail network, thereby helping to remove barriers to economic growth; but it is also needed in the context of the decision to go ahead with HS2. It is important that we deliver both projects in order not just to reduce congestion on the network but, as I mentioned earlier, to maximise the potential benefit of HS2.

If we are to maximise the potential of HS2 to make the relationship between the economies of the north and London more dynamic, we must also ensure that those agglomeration benefits are spread across the north. If that is to happen, the Government must recognise the importance of transport infrastructure in supporting economic development plans. In particular, they must recognise our great northern cities as hubs for economic development. They must recognise the importance of greater connectivity—not only with London, on a north-south axis, but on an east-west axis, between the northern urban centres, and with international gateways not just at Heathrow and Gatwick but at the mouth of the Humber and Mersey rivers.

We need regional planning. As the report says, without it there will be a risk that choices will be made on a basis that discriminates against weaker economies. There is already an example of that in the form of the Government’s decision to electrify the Leeds-to-Manchester cross-Pennine route, which discriminates against what I call the third point of the golden triangle of the north: the city of Sheffield.

We need the Govt to recognise the broader context of an economic policy that involves stimulation of the economy and the role that transport could play in it. Long-term infrastructure projects should be brought forward, as outlined in Labour's alternative plan for jobs and growth, but instead we are seeing significant cuts in investment, such as the £759 million cut on top of the £528 million efficiency savings supported by Labour.

We also need the Government to recognise the spending disparity between the north and the south. The Passenger Transport Executive Group has produced some interesting figures. In 2010-11, transport spending per head was £774 in London and £276 in Yorkshire and the Humber. The source of those figures is the most recent version of a public expenditure spending analysis from Her Majesty’s Treasury. I ask the Minister to respond to them, and to demonstrate by way of a full written explanation—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I call Stuart Andrew.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Baker]

I shall make some progress, if I may.

The performance of local councils across the country varies enormously in respect of buses. If the hon. Gentleman has had significant cuts in Durham, he must consider other areas, such as East Riding and so on, where there have been far fewer cuts. Local councils have responded in rather different ways to the difficult economic situation they find themselves in, and it is not fair simply to blame the Government for that. He needs to look at his local council and at the decisions it has made in its area.

I hope the hon. Gentleman will notice that, in trying to deal with the matter, we have given money to community transport, including in Durham. I have also announced a new fund, the better bus area fund, which his local authority has indeed applied for; and the local sustainable transport fund, which is worth £560 million and includes more money for the area than the previous Government invested over the same period, has provided funding for the Wheels to Work schemes, which I mention because he made a very fair point about the importance of ensuring that there is joined-up thinking between the Departments for Transport and for Work and Pensions. I have corresponded with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the matter, and the discussions are ongoing because we recognise the important link between transport and work. The hon. Gentleman made a very fair point.

On regional growth, I was disappointed that the Committee Chair quoted the IPPR’s report without question because it is incomplete and partial, as she may remember I said when I dealt with it at Transport questions a couple of sessions ago. Its figures are unreliable. Of all the transport investment announced in the Chancellor’s autumn statement and in the 14 December announcement about local major schemes, 62% by value is in the north and the midlands and 35% is in the north alone. Similarly, of the strategic highway investments announced in the 2010 spending review, 63% by value is in the north and midlands and 40% is in the north alone. The spend in the autumn statement for the local authority majors totals over £3 billion of regional spending, of which 35% is in the north-east, north-west, and Yorkshire and the Humber, 27% is in the west and east midlands, and only 24% is in London and the south-east. I therefore do not recognise or accept the figures in the IPPR report.

[Angela Smith]

The Passenger Transport Executive Group has made it clear that there appears to be no basis for the figures given by the DFT to the Select Committee, which are reflected in its report. Will the Minister undertake to give a full written explanation of the basis of the figures that the DFT is using?

[Norman Baker]

The figures in the IPPR report need to be questioned rather than the Department’s figures. In her speech, the hon. Lady accused the Government of a lack of transparency, but that is completely wrong. There is now more transparency and consistency in decision making than there was under previous Governments. For example, we have published the internal assessments of all 41 approved local authority majors development pool schemes. We published details of the Highways Agency’s schemes at the 2010 spending review. That is a commitment the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), made and took through at the time. Every six months, we publish value for money data on all decisions.

[Angela Smith]

indicated dissent.

[Norman Baker]

There is no point in the hon. Lady shaking her head—these are the facts. We have also published a whole lot of transparency data sets that were previously kept secret. We have a very good record on transparency, which is very important for decision making centrally and locally.

My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) asked about pot holes. The amount of money being made available to deal with pot holes in the four-year period of the spending review is more than was made available by the previous Government. In addition, we have undertaken expenditure to get best practice identified across local authority works so that local authorities get better value for money and can therefore mend more pot holes or, indeed, prevent them from occurring in the first place. I recognise the importance of that matter for many of her constituents and no doubt people elsewhere in the country.

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the value of 20 mph limits, particularly outside schools. She will know, I hope, that I have made it possible for local authorities to introduce 20 mph limits, where they feel it appropriate to do so, much more easily and with much less bureaucracy than was hitherto the case. That has been well received by local government. She raised a fair point about school transport provision. I have been in ongoing discussions about that with my opposite number at the Department for Education, the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton); indeed, I am discussing it with him again tomorrow.

My hon. Friend asked about sat-nav. Next week I am holding a sat-nav summit to bring all the various players together. [Interruption.] Labour Members clearly do not think this is a serious issue, but I can tell my hon. Friend that Government Members do think so. We do not like HGVs going down inappropriate roads and getting stuck. If Labour Members do not mind that, that is up to them, but we are dealing with the issue in government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) referred to the significant road and rail investments in the north-west. He put matters into context fairly, and I am grateful for that. He also, rightly, highlighted his support for HS2, which is essential not only for Manchester and Leeds but for points further north. The benefits of HS2 begin as soon as Birmingham is connected, when the first leg is in place, because trains will be able to run through to the north-east and journey times will be reduced accordingly. We want HS2 to be in place as soon as humanly possible, and if we can do anything to bring the timetable forward, we will. I note his strong support for the northern hub. I can only echo the comments of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who said that it was a really strong contender for control period 5. If that gets me into the Manchester Evening News, that is all to the good. I will try to get into the Leicester Mercury as well by saying that the midland main line is a strong candidate for CP5.

I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) here today. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), who is no longer in his place, intervened on him to refer to the Cardiff to Swansea line. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman wants to achieve by electrification, but I point out to him that it is not necessary to change trains at Cardiff to get to Swansea. When electrification to Cardiff takes place, it will be perfectly possible, and indeed desirable, to run trains through in bi-mode operation without the necessity to change, and the speed gains that come from electrification will make it a much quicker and more pleasant journey to Swansea on new rolling stock. He ought to be pleased by that arrangement.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) has done a lot of hard work on behalf of his local airport, and we all recognise that. He asked in particular about the arrangements for public service obligations. I can tell him that it is open to regional stakeholders to apply to the Secretary of State to impose a PSO on an air route should they feel that a case can be made and it satisfies EU regulation 1008/2008. As he knows, the airport pushed for a PSO in 2009. There is an issue with the poor service at the railway station, and I will be happy to speak to him separately about that matter if that would be helpful.

My final point relates to comments about the Department’s alleged underspend, which was raised by the Chairman of the Select Committee and a couple of other Members. It is an important point. The level of underspend became apparent only towards the end of the year and could not have been predicted earlier. The money was used to increase expenditure in certain areas where results were deliverable in 2010-11 and represented good value for money. It would not have been right to scrabble around for something to spend on at the end of the year that was not good value for money; that would not have been a responsible use of taxpayers’ money. I also point out to the hon. Lady that a very large sum of that related to budget cover for depreciation and therefore was not, in any case, spendable cash in the traditional sense. The underspend arose largely because of the rail subsidy being lower than expected following the successful negotiations that we carried out with the train operators, which produced better than expected passenger numbers and a better deal for the taxpayer than hitherto might have been expected.

We have had a very good debate. The Government have demonstrated that we are committed to transport and the economy, committed to creating growth and jobs, and committed to cutting carbon emissions. We are getting on with it and doing a pretty good job.

Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54).