Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill Debate

Full Debate: Read Full Debate
Department: Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Andy McDonald Excerpts
Friday 22nd October 2021

(2 years, 5 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain). [Laughter.] At least we have a Yorkshire heritage in common, which is always a pleasure.

It is quite daunting to speak after the eloquent speeches by the promoter of the Bill, the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), and by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris). They both made fantastic and constructive speeches. Prior to my being in this Chamber, my life was in business, and I feel like I am in some kind of mediation. We have heard the workers’ perspective, we have heard the lawyers’ perspective, and now, perhaps, we will listen to the business perspective, which is a very important part of the conversation.

It was great to hear the hon. Member for Brent North talk about the engagement that he has had with business, and about seeing the issue from their perspective. I can see why he has made sure that the Bill does not ban fire and rehire outright. I am not sure that all his colleagues would support that position, so he has taken a brave line on that. He said right at the start of his speech that he wants to make the UK the best place to work. I absolutely agree. We also want to make it the best place to start a business, because the relationship is symbiotic. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bradford East, said that workers create the wealth and the chief executives and shareholders hoard it. I do not see it like that. It is a much more interdependent relationship than that.

Let me talk about a personal experience of mine. I have been in business for 30 years. I know that the situation would not have been quite the same, because my business would not have come under the legislation contained in chapter 1, but there are other elements that would have been the same. We entered the crisis of 2008 with a workforce of 200 people, so we would have come under this legislation in scale, although the legislation that covered our business would probably have been slightly different.

We were in the property sector, and we were faced with a 70% reduction in turnover that year. The first thing that happened was that all the directors of the company—all the people who ran the company—took a 50% pay cut. That was the first thing we did, before we made any redundancies whatsoever. Then, of course, we sat down and talked to our workforce about how we were going to get through this period. That was a very difficult period, because we had been in business for 26 years and a lot of those people had worked for us for over 20 years. We had to reduce our workforce from 200 people to 65. It was a desperate time. We were not trying, as was described, to coerce them into a certain situation; we were simply trying to get our business through a very difficult situation. We were under pressure from all directions.

The key thing for us at that point was pace. The bank was putting us under huge pressure. We did go through consultations. As part of the section 188 requirements—the 30-day requirement—we went through consultation with our workforce. The workforce were very supportive of what we did, and I think in many cases they felt more sorry for us than we did for them, although, as I say, the conversations were very difficult. However, if we had had to go through endless consultations and reviews, challenges through the committee and challenges through the employment tribunal, our business would have gone under. That is the reality behind that delay.

Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald
- Hansard - -

The hon. Member is making some excellent points. I do not think that anybody in the House is suggesting that the sort of practices that he engaged in, as a good and responsible employer, are the issues at play here. The issue that concerns us is employers that are making very significant profits using the cover of covid to deploy these dreadful tactics, not the sort of good practices that he is describing. He is making reasonable points about periods of consultation. If he finds that those are too onerous, we can address and debate those issues in Committee. We need to hear evidence directly from people, including his considerable experience.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I should have clarified this. I am not a lawyer, but I can read, and subsection (1) of proposed new section 187A covers not just fire and rehire but, as set out in clause 1,

“reasons other than conduct or capability”,

which could cover a situation where someone was making redundancies simply to cut their coat according to their cloth. Is it possible to amend in Committee a Bill that is potentially so flawed? I defer to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, who said that guidelines and sanctions would be the better approach. It is only fair that we look at that. As legislators, it is important that we tread carefully when we legislate at all. Bill Shankly, a great Liverpool manager, said to his players before he sent them out on to the pitch that, “The score is 0-0, don’t let it get any worse.” Before we move down a path of legislation, we legislators have to think about whether there are unintended consequences—we must not make things worse, particularly for business, which is looking for stability, frameworks and certainty. I will also come to the retrospective nature of the Bill, which I am uncomfortable with.

I am of course totally opposed to fire and rehire where a profitable business that does not need to restructure is taking advantage of a particular situation. Opposition Members are trying to cover those situations, and who would not want to do that? Such conduct is absolutely wrong and a stain on business, and every Minister I have heard at the Dispatch Box has criticised it.

There is only one thing worse than fire and rehire, and that is fire and not rehire. That would be a concern if the Bill went through, instead of companies taking the opportunity to restructure in a way that keeps their business going and gets it through a difficult time. If the provisions were not in the Bill, companies would just make redundancies or dismiss staff in other ways.

--- Later in debate ---
Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, but in my view it is better to have no legislation than poor legislation. It is important that we look at the Bill and decide whether it should go into Committee.

As I was trying to say in response to the intervention by the hon. Member for Brent North, it is about capacity. We would be giving the Central Arbitration Committee huge responsibility, not only for taking on lots more cases but for making lots more determinations about information.

Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald
- Hansard - -

That’s its job.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, but it would require a huge scaling up of the role and there are no money resolutions attached to the Bill. [Interruption.] If I or any other person does not want to see this Bill passed, we have a perfect right to stand in this Chamber and express that opinion. That is exactly what I am doing. As I say, it is better to have no legislation than poor legislation.

The capacity of employment tribunals is another big issue. The ACAS document says that employment tribunals are under enormous strain today. The Bill would likely significantly increase the workload of employment tribunals. Additionally, it would require them to make all kinds of interpretations. The ACAS document observes that tribunals are not economists. Tribunals would consider the situation between businesses and workers and would have to make decisions that, in my view, they may not be capable of making. This might introduce undesired complexity, for example. There are all kinds of questions, not just about capacity but about the competence of employment tribunals.

I am also concerned about duplication, as it seems to me that there are provisions in the Bill about situations covered by redundancy.

--- Later in debate ---
Mark Pawsey Portrait Mark Pawsey
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, and the majority of Conservative Members, are in agreement with the hon. Gentleman. We want those discussions to take place at an earlier stage. Centrica believed that it was a requirement to issue a section 188 notice at an early stage, because redundancies might be necessary. That was a matter of the interpretation of law.

Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald
- Hansard - -

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his wonderful news. We are discussing Centrica. Have he and his colleagues on the Committee committed the calamitous acquisitions by British Gas Centrica in America, which brought on it the financial pressures that it had to deal with? Its choice was to instigate section 188 notices and start the process, rather than to begin consultation, which is what Labour Members are trying to achieve with the Bill.

Mark Pawsey Portrait Mark Pawsey
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I think we are in agreement—we want that to happen. The legal advice that a substantial UK corporation received was that that was necessary, and he and I will need to look again at the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris), which sets out an alternative way of dealing with such issues. From the Centrica evidence I also got the need to modernise terms and conditions. This long-established organisation had gone through many iterations. It employed a number of businesses, there were 7,000 variations in its terms and conditions, and it needed to bring those together. I think the matter is now resolved, with 98% of engineers at Centrica having signed a new contract by May 2021. We all understand the need to add to existing protections, and my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury has set out a clear alternative for the way forward. She spoke authoritatively about the dangers of unintended consequences from the Bill, and for those reasons I shall be later joining my colleagues in the Lobby to oppose it.

--- Later in debate ---
Paul Scully Portrait Paul Scully
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We published the “Good work plan”, in which we accepted many of Matthew Taylor’s reviews, but we did not have to wait for an employment Bill to begin progress on this. We have closed the loophole which saw agency workers employed on cheaper rates than permanent workers, we have quadrupled the maximum fine for employers who treat their workers badly, and we have given all workers the right to receive a statement of their rights from day one. We do not have to always reach for primary legislation first when we can be doing other things to make sure that we can stand up for workers across the UK.

Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald
- Hansard - -

The Minister says that he does not have to reach for primary legislation, but when is he going to do anything at all? He has stood at that Dispatch Box for years, wrung his hands over the pernicious practice of fire and rehire, and done diddly squat. If we are going to have to wait for some other document from a new Member of Parliament, where is it and when are we going to get it? The only message that is going out from this place is that this Government will do nothing about fire and rehire, and bad bosses can carry on as before, continue these practices and cut people’s wages—it is either that or they will lose their jobs. That is the message that leaves this place today.

Paul Scully Portrait Paul Scully
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sorry if the hon. Member feels that I have been here for years. I think I have been here for only 18 or 19 months, but it does seem like years, so perhaps I am boring for Britain in talking about workers’ rights and standing up for those rights. None the less, we are acting on this, and I will develop my speech to show exactly how we are doing so.