Media Bill

Andy Carter Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 21st November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Frazer]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this important point, because we want to ensure that everybody has access to television. That is why I made those comments in my speech. We are looking at this matter. There are a number of ongoing reviews to make sure we have evidence bases. I am happy to stay engaged with him on that subject.

From Wimbledon to the FIFA World cup final, live sports are among the most important fixtures on our television schedules every week. To protect British viewers’ access to major sporting events, the Bill will modernise the listed events regime. In line with the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s recommendation, we have acted to close the streaming loophole.

Millions of us tune into the radio every single day to spend time with our favourite presenters or our favourite music. Whether it is Cambridge 105 Radio or LBC, we rely on local radio to keep us entertained and informed. Few know more about this issue than my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South, and I thank him for his tireless work to champion this vital sector. But as modern technology continues to transform how, when and where people tune in, we must ensure that stations across the UK have the right support in place so that they can reach their listeners.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s kind words. One of the issues we have discussed and debated in this Chamber over the last 12 months is the BBC’s decision to reduce local news on many of its local radio stations. I am very supportive of this Bill and welcome the steps to cut red tape for local commercial radio, but can she assure me and this House that there are sufficient provisions to ensure that local news continues on local multiplexes?

[Lucy Frazer]

I was pleased to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency and to take part in a session on his local radio station. As he knows, the BBC is operationally and editorially independent but, of course, local news is important. We have measures in this Bill to protect local news.

Because listeners increasingly listen to radio using smart speakers, the Bill will require that major smart speakers ensure that the UK radio stations that listeners love remain available on request. The Bill will also remove a number of outdated and burdensome regulations that are holding back the commercial radio sector, while strengthening protections for local news and information.

Finally, one of my central priorities as Secretary of State is to protect media freedom so that our world-leading media can continue to thrive. The Bill has media freedom at its core. One of its most significant measures is the removal of a long-standing threat to that freedom by repealing section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013. Section 40 and the possibility of publishers having to pay the legal costs of the people who sue them, even if they win, has hung over our media like a sword of Damocles. The Bill removes the sword for good.

The Labour party, of course, is no friend of the free press. The shadow Secretary of State has, in the past, called for boycotts of some of this country’s most well-respected papers. The Labour party has accused the Government of muddying the waters of this crucial legislation by including the repeal of section 40, but for us the water is clear. The position is clear: we will protect our free press.

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[Damian Collins]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. It should be easier to find through app stores. Although they are not directly in scope of the legislation because they are not broadcast formats in their own right, that question should be asked—is it easy to find? It should be easy to find on a connected device when it is turned on, and it should be easy to locate the apps.

Ofcom also has to consider whether the business model that underpins connected devices is fair to public service broadcasters. There is no doubt that the business model for Amazon and Google is to try to create a connected device space where all the entertainment exists and is tailored to each person. They also want to build the ad tech into that, so that they are the principal beneficiaries of the ad revenue, by monetising the placement of that content as well and diverting it away from broadcasters who have traditionally sold audiences to make money. That is the underlying problem that public service broadcasting faces today. The sale of audiences to generate advertising revenue to invest in programmes—the model that has fuelled independent public broadcasting for 50 years—is not broken, but it does not work in the way it used to; it is much more diffuse.

The revenue challenges that come from that are extremely real. That is why, on Channel 4, although I am pleased to see the Government’s changes to the remit, we need to keep a watching brief to see whether they go far enough. We have not gone as far as Channel 4 asked to go in its counter-offer to privatisation, which was the ability to go to the markets to raise money from private investors to create a programming fund that would invest £1 billion over two years in new programming. If we simply allow Channel 4 to acquire a stake in the making of programmes that it will broadcast, which will make revenue in the future, will that be enough now to meet the challenges that it will face? Given the ongoing pressures this year on declining ad revenue for TV broadcasting, we need to make sure that that will be enough. We should not assume that the measures in the Bill, which are welcome, will be the last word on that. There may be more challenges to come.

I would like to add two further points. It is right that we try to create more parity between the regulation of on-demand online services and broadcast television. If a viewer turns on their connected TV device, as far as they are concerned Netflix is as much television as the BBC, and there should be some parity in the way the platforms are regulated, the obligations they have to their users and the notifications they give about the suitability of the content. That should apply to advertising too. Often the debate we have is around advertising that targets children, but children are not watching live television; they are watching it on demand. The danger at the moment is that we have a highly regulated live broadcast television environment, but an almost completely unregulated online one. We should be far more worried about the ad rules that apply on YouTube than those on ITV, because that is where the children are. It is vital that the work on the Government’s online advertising review is completed at pace. The project has been worked on for a number of years. There needs to be proper enforceability of the advertising codes that have stood us in good stead in the broadcast world, but do not yet work in the same way online.

Finally, on media ownership and media freedom, which the Secretary of State mentioned in her opening remarks, we should give some consideration—maybe the Bill is not the right place—to the ownership of UK news companies and news assets, particularly if they are acquired by organisations based in jurisdictions overseas where maybe the regard for press freedom is not the same as it is in the UK. The Bill does not address that concern. If we have an ongoing concern about a vibrant news media landscape, there should be some concern about the companies that own media organisations—where they are based, what their interests are and what interest they have in the way the news is reported here. We do not want to see the press regulated in any way—we want to avoid that and in many ways the measures in the Bill are a nod to that as well—but we want certainty about safeguarding media freedom in the future.

[Andy Carter]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point about news media. What does he think about the ownership of public service broadcasters? Should there be legislation in place to consider who is allowed to own a public service broadcaster? For example, ITV could be bought and sold tomorrow on the stock exchange to somebody in a different country who has very different values and views on what content might be put out on ITV. Should that be in scope as well?

[Damian Collins]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point. Whether it be ITV or a newspaper such as The Daily Telegraph, which is currently up for sale, what is the motivation of someone acquiring them? We might assume they would not seek to censor what was going on, but would they have a different view on creative content, news, the stories they want to tell and what obligations exist for them? That is not something we have had to consider before, but in a market where such media assets are attractive to global investors, we should not be unconcerned about the motivations of investors who might buy those companies.

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[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler). I fear that I may repeat much of what he just said. I am pleased to be speaking in this debate, a week on from the King’s Speech debate in which I spent quite a bit of time calling on the Government to get on and introduce the Media Bill. For once, they listened to me—that’s nice.

The Media Bill we are debating is the first piece of media legislation for 20 years. The media landscape has changed beyond belief in the last two decades—it is vastly different from the world we lived in 20 years ago—so the Bill is vital to supporting broadcasters and audiences in the modern age. As the media landscape has changed, it is important that we support legislation without delay to give certainty to this important sector. We should recognise that the Bill will probably govern the media landscape for the next 20 years, so it must be forward-thinking, outward-looking and open, just as the previous legislation was.

I declare my interest as chair of the all-party parliamentary media group and the all-party parliamentary group on commercial radio. Let me start by saying that I welcome the Bill, which responds well to the needs of the sector. Because of time limitations, I will focus my remarks on three specific areas of the Bill. I will do something that I rarely do, and put television ahead of radio.

I welcome the Government’s commitment to simplifying the existing remit for public service broadcasters. PSBs are what make our television landscape renowned around the world, but they face unprecedented competition for viewers, programming content and talent in an era when global streaming services such as Netflix and Amazon Prime are producing original content and becoming increasingly dominant in the market. It is good that we have more content producers, but even better, they are choosing to make content here in the UK because of our regulatory framework.

TV prominence is about ensuring that UK viewers can easily find public service content that they value. We are living in an increasingly global marketplace, but there is still an appetite for programmes that reflect British values. In fact, around seven in 10 UK adults want UK life and culture to be represented on screen, and a similar number agree that PSBs make programmes designed for UK audiences. Why is it important that we introduce legislation to protect PSBs? Surely, viewers will want to watch the programmes that they make.

Until now, in return for providing public service content, the Government, through Ofcom, have allocated frequencies to broadcasters. In a relatively uncomplicated world, those channels have been easy to find on electronic programme guides: ITV, and STV in Scotland, on channel 3; Channel 4 and Channel 5 on their respective channels. Once someone has tuned in their TV to the nearest transmitter, they press the number on their remote control and the channel is there.

In a future world where the internet is used to deliver the linear TV and video on demand, the tech companies and platforms will decide where products and programmes appear. In fact, at the moment, if Samsung or LG decided not to include the BBC iPlayer app on their TV screens, there is nothing the BBC, UK viewers or the Government could do about it. If Amazon decided to double the charge for Channel 4’s on-demand service to appear on its Fire Stick, there is little Channel 4 could do about it. From speaking to Channel 4, I know that when Amazon moved the location of the Channel 4 app on the Fire Stick, there was a significant alteration in the viewing of Channel 4. It matters where the apps are located on the relevant platform.

If we want to make sure that British viewers can easily find BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5, and STV in Scotland and S4C in Wales, we need to agree the framework that will ensure that platforms carry those services. I fully support that. I also urge the Government to look carefully at using the word “significant” rather than “appropriate”. That will determine where the channels are found on those platforms.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I wholeheartedly agree that it is not just about the schedule. As I said earlier, I was not aware that we had a schedule. We do not use Freeview; we open the Fire Stick or PlayStation and look at the apps. The prominence of the apps is important. If someone does not have terrestrial TV or an aerial hooked up, that is the only way that they are able to consume the public service broadcast content.

[Andy Carter]

There may be an age divide that determines whether someone looks at an electronic programme guide or the Radio Times, or whether they just look for a tile. The notion that viewers want to continue to use linear TV is important. That is why it is so critical that we legislate in the right way to make sure that British viewers can find it.

The changes in the Bill will impact Channel 4 more than any other PSB, given its unique publisher-broadcaster licence. Channel 4’s status, introduced by the Conservative Government back in the 1980s, has significantly aided the development of the independent production sector in the UK over the last 40 years, which is now worth nearly £4 billion. The removal of the publisher-broadcaster restrictions will allow for Channel 4 to produce its own content, as opposed to simply commissioning or acquiring all of its content from third parties. Why does that matter? For the first time, it will allow Channel 4, when it produces content, to own the rights for that content, which it can then sell around the world, creating another stream of revenue which will allow products and programmes to be funded on Channel 4.

The Government have announced plans to increase Channel 4’s independent production quota as part of the changes. However, there will be many small production companies in areas such as the north-west of England, which have seen a rapid growth in independent production businesses, who are still unsure about the full impact the changes will have for them. Will the Minister, in his response, expand a little more on what the changes will mean for those businesses and give some assurances that they will still be able to thrive once Channel 4 receives its new licence and the Bill receives Royal Assent?

Channel 4 has indicated that it will maintain its existing commitment to spend 50% of its budget for main channel commissions outside London. That is really important to regional production. Ofcom has announced that it will be consulting on whether changes will need to be made to Channel 4’s regional programming making quotas. Is the Minister able to provide a timeline for that consultation, so we know when any changes will come into effect?

I want to touch on local TV and echo some of the comments from other hon. and right hon. Members. I have received representations from the local TV networks who are concerned that the current Bill does not guarantee local TV service prominence in the new TV ecology, and neither does it grant powers on a par with those of local radio services. At some point, the sector will start to provide streamed linear programme services. Will the Government be giving consideration to including local TV as part of the licensed public service channel designation in the Bill to help ensure sustainability for the sector? It really is important that there is an understanding for this sector going forward, because it is making decisions today on the future of its business plans.

Finally on TV, if we are looking to the next 20 years, because this is the only Bill we are likely to see in the media landscape, we should be conscious that the previous broadcasting Bill ran for 20 years. On the Government’s management of a digital terrestrial television switchover, I have been reassured in my conversations with the Minister that he wants terrestrial television to remain accessible for the foreseeable future. I very much agree with him on that. When he is summing up, could he give an indication of the criteria he might want to set before broadcast TV services on Freeview are considered for switch off? That was in place for DAB digital radio. There was a clear criteria in terms of when that might happen. Things have moved many, many times over the years, but it would be helpful for the digital terrestrial sector to understand what the Government might be thinking.

Before I turn to the provisions on radio, may I put on record my congratulations to all those who have worked in commercial radio over the past 50 years? Independent local radio, as we once knew it, celebrated its 50th anniversary just a few weeks ago. It was 50 years ago in October since LBC and Capital Radio arrived on our airwaves in the capital, 50 years since Radio Clyde in Glasgow launched and 50 years since BRMB in Birmingham launched. They were the four stations in 1973 that appeared on our AM radios. Over the 50 years, we have seen a plethora of local, regional and national stations arrive on AM, FM, DAB and now online via Radioplayer and smart speakers. Today, commercial radio is delivering record audiences. Back in the early 1980s, we were all convinced that video was going to kill the radio star. Actually, radio is in rude health. We have regional brands, national stations and hyperlocal services focused on their own towns and cities that are doing remarkably well. We should all recognise in this House how strong commercial radio is today and how much we value the services that people who work in that sector provide for us.

There is unanimous agreement across the BBC, and across commercial and community radio, that the Bill, on the whole, works for radio. It contains crucial measures that will help to safeguard the future in the face of changing technology and shifts in listening habits. The radio sector continues to deliver significant public value, providing trusted news, entertainment and—particularly important—companionship for about 50 million listeners every week. UK radio broadcasters make a substantial contribution to the creative industries, and BBC and commercial radio combined generate more than £1.5 billion in gross value added for the UK economy.

I especially welcome the provisions to support the future of the UK radio industry on voice-activated smart speaker platforms, and the removal of outdated regulatory burdens such as music formats on analogue licences for commercial radio stations. When there was a limited number of stations in each market, it was right for the Government to regulate the number of stations that could provide each particular type of service, but today, when there are a great many services, it should be for the market to decide. If country music is not working, it is possible to switch to jazz without spending too much time bothering the regulator.

There are, however, a few parts of the Bill that I should like the Minister to clarify for the industry. Part 5 deals with the safeguarding of local news and information on DAB services, and it would be helpful if the Minister could explain how those powers will work in practice. For instance, how would a multiplex decide which services must carry local news? Would the multiplex owner be responsible for the enforcement against a digital sound service provider, or would that be the responsibility of Ofcom? What would happen if a service carrying local news stopped broadcasting? Would the obligation be transferred to another service holder, or to the multiplex owner? As for Ofcom’s new role in producing guidelines for the regular broadcast of local news, can the Minister tell us when and how Ofcom will be consulting on that process?

Part 6 contains clauses relating to futureproofing. Will there be scope for expansion of the provisions to cover on-demand and online-only radio content provided by UK broadcasters, as opposed to linear content? Finally, may I ask whether the Government will consider an amendment to protect access to radio in cars, which still accounts for about a quarter of all radio listening, by bringing non-voice activated infotainment systems within the scope of the Bill?

I want to touch briefly on the proposals

“for the repeal of section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013”,

a decade-old provision that has never been brought into force. While I appreciated the opportunity to observe the perspective of my right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), whose knowledgeable account of the forming of that legislation was extremely insightful, I am afraid I disagree with the points that he made. It does not seem right to me that publishers who are taken to court could be forced to pay the legal costs of a judgment if they are not a member of an approved regulator, regardless of whether they win or lose the case. I am a firm believer in the freedom of the press. I have spent time working as a journalist, and there have been times when journalists have written about my activities. There are, occasionally, times when I do not like what the press have written, and there are, occasionally, times when I believe that the press have got it wrong. Healthy democracies, however, need objective journalism which is free from state involvement.

The reason I do not agree with my right hon. Friend is this. The Leveson report recommended a system of

“voluntary independent self-regulation”,

envisaging

“a body, established and organised by the industry”

which

“must be funded by its members”.

Lord Justice Leveson said that that body should include all the major players in the industry—national newspapers, and as many regional and local newspaper and magazine publishers as possible—

“although I am very anxious that it remain voluntary”.

[George Eustice]

What Lord Justice Leveson actually said was that the members of the body would only be recognised as a regulator if they had sought recognition from an organisation called the Press Recognition Panel. Leveson very clearly rejected the model put forward by Lord Black in the other place, for the very good reason that there was no independent accountability and no body to recognise that independent regulator.

[Andy Carter]

I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s comments and I recognise his knowledge in this area. He was involved at such a deep level that he has experience and expertise in this field.

For me, the media regulatory landscape has changed significantly since section 40 was introduced, with the Independent Press Standards Organisation now regulating nearly 2,000 print and online titles, including the vast majority of UK national, regional and local newspapers. I feel that that has left us with an obsolete law on the statute book which was never enacted. Removing the section was a Conservative party manifesto commitment in 2017 and in 2019, so I welcome its proposed repeal by the Bill.

In concluding my remarks, I want to offer my thanks to the Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale), to the Secretary of State and to officials in DCMS for all their positive engagement with me, with the industry and with those in the House who have long been pressing for this Bill to be brought forward. I know that the Minister is just as keen as I am to see the Media Bill on the statute book, and I am grateful to him for taking note of the issues that I have raised today. I look forward to his addressing those issues in his reply, as well as to our continued engagement over the coming months so that we can pass this Bill as soon as possible.

Media Bill (Second sitting)

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 5th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Stephanie Peacock]

Clause 6 is another example of necessary changes being made to the Communications Act 2003 to reflect the changes in clause 3. Indeed, since public service broadcasters can now use on-demand services to deliver their remit, Ofcom’s power to consider whether such a broadcaster has failed to fulfil its remit must be adjusted accordingly, so that on-demand services can be taken into account.

Likewise, it is right that Ofcom will be able to make directions and impose licence conditions that apply to audio-visual services, ensuring that its enforcement and monitoring now reflect the new flexibility in the remit. I therefore welcome the premise of this clause.

However, I want to speak briefly about Ofcom’s enforcement powers more generally with reference to amendment 20. Given the increased flexibility that public service broadcasters have been given in meeting their remit, concern has been raised about the strength of Ofcom’s position in being able to step in when things look as though they may go wrong. The British Association of Public Safety Communications Officials and Ofcom can step in only when failure to meet the remit is considered to be serious; and any failure is not excused by economic or market conditions. That seems to be an unreasonably high threshold for intervention that does not allow for preventive action to take place in order to stop an issue becoming serious in the first place.

As the Culture, Media and Sport Committee highlight in its comprehensive report on the Bill, enabling Ofcom to step in earlier if it perceives there is a risk of a breach becoming serious would not only protect the integrity of the new regime but increase public confidence that the new remit would not come with a decline in standards. Ofcom itself has also recognised that, saying in its submission to the Committee that,

“it is important that this flexibility is accompanied with appropriate ‘step in’ powers so the commercial and PSB incentives remain effectively balanced.”

Further, we will speak many times during the passage of the Bill about how important it is for Ofcom to be empowered as a result of it. Indeed, many of the new regimes in the Bill are reliant on Ofcom being able to act confidently in enforcement. As such, it must be given the tools to intervene where needed across the board. Therefore, my amendment proposes that section 270 of the Communications Act is updated to lower the threshold at which intervention can take place in the case of remit breaches. The phrase “is serious” will be adjusted to “is serious or at risk of becoming serious”, thus ensuring that Ofcom can remedy any failures efficiently and in good time. Indeed, it is not my hope that that power will have to be used on a regular basis; there is every reason to believe that the public service broadcasters will continue to do their best to deliver on their remit for UK audiences. However, should that not be the case, it is important that we do all we can to mitigate any failure. I ask for Committee members support for this amendment.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Can the hon. Lady give the Committee any examples of when Ofcom has been unable to act with its current powers against public service broadcasters in the linear world? She talks about making changes for the digital world, but are there current examples where Ofcom is concerned?

[Stephanie Peacock]

I do not believe so, no, but obviously the Bill is changing, and giving more powers to, Ofcom. Like any regulator, it needs to be able to enforce them properly; so it is really a preventive measure. We hope that the Minister will take the amendment in the spirit in which it is put forward.

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[Sir John Whittingdale]

As the hon. Member for Barnsley East has already set out, section 270 of the Communications Act gives Ofcom enforcement powers to use in the event that it believes the provider of a licensed public service channel has failed to fulfil its statutory remit, or to make an adequate contribution to the public service remit for television. In those circumstances, Ofcom could issue a direction to the public service broadcaster setting out the steps for remedying the failure. Should it not give effect to that direction, Ofcom can also then impose additional obligations on the broadcaster.

In that context, clause 6 does three things. It amends section 270 to make clear that Ofcom can make directions and impose licence conditions in relation to any services that the public service broadcaster has indicated it is using to fulfil its channel remit. In the light of the ability of licensed public service broadcasters to use a wider range of services to deliver their remits, it will allow Ofcom to consider the record of the provider in using on-demand programme services when considering enforcement action.

Turning to amendment 20, I understand the Opposition’s concern about whether Ofcom will have the tools it needs, which we absolutely share. However, we believe the particular change sought by the amendment is not necessary and would carry with it some dangers. First, as the Government have already set out to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, there are reasons why Ofcom might form the opinion that the failure of a provider is serious, but it may consider that a failure is more serious if it is likely that it will be repeated without regulatory intervention.

Secondly, the power to enforce against the licensed public service broadcaster is not the only tool available to Ofcom. Ofcom can also take less formal action, working with public service broadcasters to produce good outcomes; it also has legal options.

Thirdly—this is perhaps the most important consideration —the amendment breaches what is quite an important principle: public service broadcasters need to be independent to make their own decisions about how they best run their channels now and in the future. Ofcom’s role is to reach judgment on whether broadcasters have succeeded in meeting their public service remit. The amendment would make Ofcom a pre-broadcast regulator rather than a post-broadcast regulator. It would give Ofcom the ability to penalise failures that have not yet occurred.

[Andy Carter]

It strikes me that the Opposition’s amendment would effectively take regulation back to the days of the Independent Broadcasting Authority where, before anything was done, permission was needed from the regulator. That type of regulation is of no benefit to the creative industries and to the freedom to innovate in the way the sector requires.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is right. It is a long-established principle that Ofcom is a post-transmission regulator. The acceptance of the amendment would change that and give Ofcom an ability to intervene before transmission. That would be a breach of what we consider quite an important principle. Therefore, on that basis, we cannot accept the amendment.

Media Bill (Fourth sitting)

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s general support for what the Government are trying to do by bringing video-on-demand services within the scope of regulation. We believe it is important for audiences to be appropriately protected when watching TV on demand. We will do that through what we see as a proportionate regulatory approach, which will ensure that all the mainstream streaming services that target UK audiences are subject to rules similar to the existing ones governing UK TV broadcasters.

Under the Bill, any UK on-demand service used by a PSB other than the BBC will automatically be designated as tier 1. Alongside that, other mainstream TV-like video-on-demand services will be designated after the Media Bill comes into force, following a review of the market by Ofcom. I can tell the hon. Lady that all the streaming services with which most people are familiar will certainly come under tier 1, but at this stage we cannot publish a list or the general categories to determine it because the market is rapidly evolving. Once again, as elsewhere in the Bill, we want to have a degree of flexibility and we believe that regulatory change needs to be proportionate and practical.

At the moment, more than 270 video-on-demand services are notified with Ofcom. Many of them simply do not provide TV-like content and nor are they widely accessible, so it is important to balance audience protection with freedom of expression, and to avoid placing unnecessary burdens on them. Consultations that have been conducted already tell us that extending tier 1 regulations to the smallest niche services, such as a football team’s on-demand service, could unfairly and unnecessarily penalise them with little or no benefit to audience protection.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I understand what my right hon. Friend is saying, and I am very supportive of a tier system, but a broadcaster on linear TV, be it a football station or a new start-up, would be bound by the Ofcom broadcasting code. Why would rules in the new online environment be different from those for someone who holds a broadcast licence in the linear world? That does not seem to make a lot of sense.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is right that at the moment linear TV channels are required to be licensed by Ofcom, but in the new world it is much more likely that we are going to see quite small niche channels, which serve a particular audience. There has been a proliferation of such services, which simply could not really have taken place in the old linear world. That is why the Government felt it was right that new services that command considerable audiences and target a broad range of viewers should be subject to the same sorts of requirements as exist for linear broadcasters.

However, it would be excessive to place those requirements on every single new notified VOD service, including those that are relatively small and serve very small and defined audiences. If it is determined that a small service has the potential to cause harm, the Bill allows that it can be designated as tier 1. The Government retain the power to do so if there is evidence supporting a need for it. That will allow us to ensure that regulation can be updated or added to.

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[Sir John Whittingdale]

I absolutely share the desire of the hon. Member for Barnsley East, and I suspect all members of the Committee, to protect children and vulnerable audiences from harmful and inappropriate video-on-demand content. As we discussed earlier, the principle underlying this part of the Bill is to bring mainstream TV-like on-demand services in scope of the new code to be drafted and enforced by Ofcom.

Ofcom already has considerable experience in the regulation of broadcast TV to ensure that it is age-appropriate, and those those who may be deeply affected by what they see or hear are protected. Clause 38 inserts new section 368OB into the Communications Act 2003, giving Ofcom a new ongoing duty to review audience protection measures on all UK-based video-on-demand services and on any non-UK services that are brought under Ofcom regulation for the first time as a result of being designated as tier 1.

As we previously discussed, while linear television has a watershed that means unsuitable material should not be shown before 9pm, it is not possible to have a similar arrangement for on-demand content, so alternative protection measures are needed. Age-ratings, content warnings and parental controls in particular are necessary tools for parents and guardians; they give information to all audiences on what they are about to see. We do not want to restrict Ofcom on what it considers to be protection measures. It needs to be able to take account of the impact of systems that evolve in the future through new technology and audience trends. The Bill gives Ofcom powers to request information from providers, to provide guidance, to report, and to use existing sanctioning powers to deal with any providers that they consider are not providing appropriate audience protections.

[Andy Carter]

I accept what the Minister is saying about the role of Ofcom. May I take him back to his earlier point about the 9 o’clock watershed? That was the time when children went to bed so that they did not see things. It was a protection mechanism. One thing that we have seen with the development of technology is the introduction of a children’s profile so that we can exclude children from content on demand.

What concerns me is that all the individual VOD companies rate their own content, and different companies and providers to have a very different view of what they believe is suitable for children. The shadow Minister made a particular point about Disney+. Because my son is taking GCSE English, I watched “A Christmas Carol” the other day; there is a Disney version that was on at 9 pm. I would not have wanted a 16-year-old to watch that. It contained graphic nudity and foul language, and I was very concerned that if I had set the rating at a particular level for a child to watch, they would have been exposed to something that I and most parents would be uncomfortable with them seeing. Can the Minister assure me that the framework that Ofcom puts in place will deliver a comparable and consistent level of protection for children so that families and parents can be assured that the age rating system and the children’s profile will give that layer of protection?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I am interested to hear that example. There will always be disagreement about what is suitable for children and what is not. Some parents will take a much stronger view on what is appropriate than others, who will think it part of the education. Ofcom has a lot of experience in this. I am not sure whether it was “A Christmas Carol”. I remember a good version that contained some quite graphic material, which perhaps was not in the original by Dickens. I think that was on the BBC, so it would have already been subject to Ofcom’s scrutiny.

Part of Ofcom’s overall objective, in determining whether a system of age rating is appropriate or viable, will be to make sure that it is in line with other systems, so that parents have a basic level of assurance, whatever they are watching and whatever system for determining age ratings is chosen by that provider.

Amendment 30, tabled by the hon. Member for Barnsley East, seeks to add information about where viewers can seek help, if they have been affected by content, to the list in new section 3680B of examples of audience protection measures. I completely agree that it is sometimes absolutely right that audiences be given a warning if they might suddenly encounter content that they were not expecting and which could be distressing. That already takes place across the broadcasting sector, and it is appropriate. However, the Bill already fully enables Ofcom to review or provide guidance on any such measures. The Bill purposely does not give an exhaustive list of measures that Ofcom can consider. As a result, it will enable Ofcom to take into account anything it considers to be appropriate. That can certainly include signposting.

The hon. Lady’s amendment 34 would impose requirements on Ofcom when it is assessing age ratings on VOD services. However, we feel that there is a danger that that might restrict innovation and impose extra requirements and costs on VOD providers that will not necessarily equate to increased protection. As I think I said on Second Reading, I am a great admirer of the work of the BBFC, with which I have worked for at least 30 years. Generally, it reaches very sensible decisions on what is deemed appropriate. It goes to great lengths to ensure that its ratings reflect the current standards of what the public views as appropriate for particular age ratings. My reluctance to support the hon. Lady’s amendment in this area is not in any way a reflection on or a criticism of the BBFC. The Government take the view that we do not think it appropriate to mandate the use of BBFC ratings at this time.

The important thing is that each channel should have a system of age ratings that delivers effective protection for young people. It is for Ofcom to assess whatever audience protection measures are put in place by that channel to ensure that they are effective and fit for purpose. We think that that is more effective than specifying any individual system. Ofcom will have the power it needs to provide guidance and to report and deal with any providers that it considers are not providing appropriate audience protections. For that reason, we feel that amendment 34 would put unnecessary restrictions on Ofcom and could preclude any new form of age ratings from entering the market. I am afraid that I am therefore unable to accept the hon. Lady’s amendments.

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[Sir John Whittingdale]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s invitation to speak a little more broadly on radio in general. About 20 years ago, lots of people were saying that radio was in permanent decline. It was thought that the advent of things like podcasts and streaming services such as Spotify would mean that people slowly gave up listening to radio.

I am delighted that that has proved to be completely wrong. Actually, radio is going from strength to strength, particularly in the commercial radio sector, at which these clauses of the Bill are primarily aimed. It is doing very well, which is extremely welcome.

Similarly, about 20 years ago there was a great debate about when we should switch off analogue transmission as people moved to digital. The hon. Lady is right to say that the take-up of digital broadcasting has been considerable and continues to grow. We now have additional means of radio reception, such as via smart speakers or online, which we will debate when we consider later clauses of the Bill. There is a wealth of ways in which listeners can access radio, but I think analogue, rather like digital terrestrial television, will be around for some considerable time. I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Lady a date by which we think we might switch off analogue, but it is not under consideration at the moment. Actually, I do not think that radio is particularly pressing for it in the way it was some time ago, for cost reasons.

[Andy Carter]

rose—

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a considerable expert in the matter.

[Andy Carter]

I will limit my comments on the clause to analogue radio. I am aware that there are community radio operators that would very much like to go on to the analogue spectrum, particularly in rural areas. Rutland and Stamford Sound has been providing a community service that would simply not work on DAB. I set up the first commercial radio station in Rutland. I know the territory incredibly well, and it does not work to run a small-scale service on DAB. So many transmitters would be needed that it just simply would not be viable. There is an operator there that wants to run an FM service. Will the Minister speak to Ofcom to look at offering more licences in rural areas where there is demand?

The second point I would like to raise with the Minister is also an issue for Ofcom. Where there has been small-scale DAB roll-out, we have many more excellent local services as a result, and I am supportive of it. However, the fact that the signal and reception of small-scale DAB are measured from a height of 10 foot, which is equivalent to the eaves of a house, has given rise to disappointment in communities. Not many radio receivers have aerials that high, so although it says on a graph that someone can hear it in a car down on the ground, the reality is that they cannot. Ofcom could look at that to improve small-scale DAB radio coverage at a local level.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is correct that attention has mainly been focused on small-scale DAB roll-out, which provides options for communities to access more locally based stations. My view has always been that we should let a thousand flowers bloom. Therefore, in whatever format, I would be keen to encourage the licensing and starting up of new stations, if possible. I am a great supporter of community radio as well.

I note that our hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) has been active in pressing the case for a station in her constituency. She is always active on behalf of her constituents and she has been outspoken in this policy area, having already been to see me about it once. I will draw Ofcom’s attention to the remarks of my hon. Friends the Members for Warrington South and for Rutland and Melton, because I share the wish to see that take place, if possible.

The means by which they choose to transmit is up to stations. However, there is currently a requirement under their licence for national commercial stations to continue to maintain an analogue service. A point may come when there is no longer any particular benefit in doing so. That will not be covered by the Bill, but I would like to put on the record that I am personally quite sympathetic to the idea that, although analogue is appropriate in many cases, we should not necessarily force it where it is no longer appropriate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 41 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 42

Licensing and local services

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

Perhaps I should start by outlining the purpose of clause 44, which makes changes to section 314 of the Communications Act to reflect the evolution of the market and the findings of the Government’s 2017 consultation on commercial radio deregulation.

In particular, it is clear from that consultation, and the steps taken since by Ofcom to relax its definition of locally made programming, that the requirements in this area are too onerous and are constraining the industry from rationalising its production base. This is making it harder for stations to compete effectively against new online services, so the clause removes the requirement for Ofcom to secure that stations provide a certain amount of programming from a studio within their coverage area. However, it is the case that local news and information remain of great importance to listeners, and their provision remains central to radio’s public value. Commercial radio’s local news provision plays an important role in ensuring plurality in the sector. Stations will, then, be specifically required to provide news that has been gathered within the area to which they broadcast.

The provisions do not require stations to directly employ journalists to gather local news. A station could, for example, enter into a partnership with a newspaper agency or a freelance journalist who gathers news in the local area. We also taking powers to apply the requirements to DAB services if there is a future shortage of available local news. This could take a variety of forms—for example, Ofcom could be required to impose conditions in local radio multiplex licences that require the multiplex operator to carry at least one digital radio station that carries local news and information. Alternatively, the multiplex operator could be required to reserve capacity on the multiplex for a radio service that carries local news and information. At the moment, many existing digital radio services are simulcast versions of analogue stations that carry local news and information, so we do not consider that there is currently a need to consider in detail how the powers would be exercised.

Amendment 31 seeks to add a requirement for the Government to publish statutory guidance on the interpretation of the clause, including on the meaning of “local news”. Ofcom would then need to have regard to that guidance in developing its own guidance for holders of local sound broadcast licences on how they are able to meet the new local news and information requirements as set out in the Bill.

[Andy Carter]

I want to press the Minister a little more on the requirement on the multiplex operator to deliver news services. If, for example, a multiplex is full, and contracted legal licences to deliver product for 10 years are already in place, but the operator now has a requirement to deliver news, how can they do that? They are not providing the service; they are contracting space to other radio operators. I am interested in the practical application of the Bill where a multiplex provider is required to ensure local news provision.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

That is a matter for Ofcom to determine. As I said, Ofcom will be able to ensure that a local radio multiplex, through its licence, can provide space for a local news service. For the moment, that might well be provided by the existing analogue service, but if we reached a point where none of the services wishing to go on to the multiplex provided a local news service, the operator could restrict remaining space on the multiplex, so that it is available if someone comes forward.

[Andy Carter]

In effect, Ofcom needs to change the licences of existing multiplex operators, because in the licences issued, I do not see a clause to say that they have to deliver news if that is not provided locally on an analogue service.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The powers relate to future shortages. I suspect that we could not backdate the provisions to kick someone with a contract off a multiplex. Perhaps it would be helpful if I later provided a bit more information to the Committee on precisely how that would work.

To go back to the definition of “local news” in the amendment of the hon. Member for Barnsley East, I understand that her purpose is to refine that definition and that of “locally gathered”, but I think that the amendment is unnecessary.

Media Bill (Third sitting)

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is right. As he says, the technology in this area is evolving very rapidly, so it is important that the regulatory framework is sufficiently flexible to keep up to date with technology as it arises. His point is that we are moving towards viewers having greater and greater control not only of what they watch, but of what comes up as recommendations for them to watch, and can choose which channels appear, and that will continue to evolve. It is therefore important that Ofcom can take account of technology developments in the framework.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Minister and the shadow spokesperson have been talking about regional content in respect of national content for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is incredibly important that viewers in the regions are able to access regional news and information. Does the Minister agree that it is incumbent upon service providers such as ITV and the BBC to ensure that, when people access their services, it is very easy to find that regional content? Geolocation is particularly helpful, because it will recognise the user’s postcode, but there needs to be a requirement for public service broadcasters to ensure that it is easy to be set up, so that people can access their local area. That would certainly benefit the service providers, who we all know always talk to us about the strength of their services, such as the number of viewers who watch Granada and other services in the regions. Does the Minister agree that it really comes down to ensuring that the public service broadcasters have those things set up properly and prominently in their apps?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. As I said—and as the hon. Lady the Member for Barnsley East mentioned in her remarks—the issue of regional prominence is important. It is our view that we should replicate the current regional prominence arrangements under the linear regime in the online space, given that the nations and regions are a core component of PSBs. We designed the regime to give Ofcom the discretion to determine various ways of delivering appropriate prominence across different platforms, and that includes delivering regionally.

We expect that Ofcom will set out different options, depending on what would be proportionate and reasonable for RTSSs to deliver, having regard to technical considerations. One method, which my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South suggested, would be to ask the viewer to submit a postcode at the time that their smart TV or other device is first set up. That would be sufficient to enable regional prominence. Stakeholders will have the opportunity to submit their views on how regional prominence should be delivered in due course, when Ofcom consults on the code.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The first thing to say is that nobody is forcing Channel 4 either to acquire a production capacity or to develop its own production capacity. That will be a matter for Channel 4; we are merely giving it the option. I hear the hon. Gentleman’s point about Channel 4 saying that it is not particularly interested in pursuing that option, but I think that has changed. I have had a lot of discussions with Channel 4, including one yesterday to discuss precisely how the requirements would work. The fact that Channel 4 has engaged a lot with us on the detail—particularly the competition aspect of the commissioning process—indicates that, even if not immediately, it certainly wishes to explore the option and have that ability. I do not think that debating how the requirements will operate is a waste of time. I do not know when Channel 4 will take advantage of the option; that is a matter for it to decide, but it is certainly keen to have it available.

[Andy Carter]

I hear what the hon. Member for Eltham said, but all the other media businesses in PSB have acquired production companies so that they can sell products around the world. If Channel 4 said, “We are not going to do that; we are just going to stay as a broadcaster publisher,” it would be left in an incredibly vulnerable state. I encourage Channel 4 to get on and move into that space, because having alternative revenue streams to advertising will give it more certainty in the future.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Having an in-house production facility, as, for instance, ITV and the BBC do, allows channels to potentially make programmes not just for their own transmission but for others as well. It therefore offers a diversification of revenue streams.

The other point my hon. Friend might be getting at is that Channel 4 commissions all its programming output externally, but that is usually governed by terms of trade that mean that it does not retain the intellectual property of that programme. The restriction limits the amount of money that it can make from the commissioning of programmes. There are reasons why Channel 4 might well want to explore the option, but, as I say, it is not required to do so. It will be a matter for the channel.

The hon. Member for Barnsley East rightly raised the concern that giving Channel 4 that freedom could adversely impact the independent production sector. That is why we have included in the Bill the requirements for fair competition and for Ofcom to monitor the statement of commissioning policy and carry out a review to ensure that there is not an adverse impact of the kind that she described, as well as the increase in the independent production quota. I think that the Bill contains protections for the independent production sector, but at the same time gives Channel 4 the freedom that there is a strong chance it will wish to exploit at some future date.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 29 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 30 and 31 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 32

S4C’s powers and public service remit

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Media Bill (Fifth sitting)

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

It is a pleasure to take part in this Committee stage of the Media Bill today. I will not talk for too long on these amendments, which I tabled after conversations, particularly with Radiocentre, about how in-car entertainment systems work. These days, the reality is that an awful lot of people are using those in-car systems by navigating through screens or pressing on their mobile phone, in advance of actually driving the car. I myself tend to use the buttons on my screen when I am listening to stuff in the car.

Nine out of 10 UK adults—a significant proportion—listen to commercial radio or BBC radio every week. That is where a massive number of people get their local news, hear updates on what is going on, and listen to all sorts of genres of music. It is incredibly important for people. Even though in a lot of places we are moving away from cars and taking more public transport, people who use cars generally have some sort of sound on when they are driving. An awful lot of the time that is either commercial radio or BBC radio.

Commercial radio is already highly regulated. The adverts available on commercial radio that can be heard over DAB, for example, are checked. They have to meet high standards, not have false claims in them, and be pre-checked in advance of being broadcast. Radio stations have to ensure that they cover certain genres, although that is set to change as a consequence of this Bill. That makes a huge amount of sense, given the increase in the availability of services and the fact that there are not just one or two radio stations available to listen to and get signal for on AM or FM. There is the whole gamut of digital or internet radio.

We spoke last week about resilience and public reliance on hearing public sector broadcasts. The Minister himself made the point that radio is a good way for people to get updates on things happening in the local area, particularly if there is some sort of emergency. When we were talking about terrestrial television, the Minister made that point clear, and I absolutely agree with him. In the event that there is flooding in a local area, people often tune in to their local stations. In Aberdeen, that is Northsound 1, Original 106, or shmuFM—Station House Media Unit, an excellent community-run radio station. Those are all things people will use to they increase their resilience and ensure that they are aware of any emergencies.

To ensure that this is future-proofed and that the Bill makes sense and works in the way that the Government intend, I have tabled the amendments 42, 43 and 44 in relation to radio selection services, specifically to include non-voice-activated in-car entertainment systems. Not all cars rely on voice activation, and lots of people do not like voice activation; even though 53% of people now have smart speakers, a proportion are still not keen. As someone pointed out to me recently, the level of tolerance in relation to these things is pretty low. When someone says, “Alexa, please could you do this,” and it does not do it, they get frustrated fairly quickly, because the technology does not necessarily behave itself. For various reasons, some people choose to use the physical buttons or the screen selection services. Radiocentre and I believe that those people should also get the service that they are looking for, and that when they press those buttons in the car, they should get whichever radio station they want on whichever player they are looking for. It is important, therefore, that the Government consider this matter and whether something else could be done, particularly in this clause, to ensure that in-car entertainment systems are accessible to the public; to ensure that they are able to find the BBC, or BBC iPlayer if they are streaming through an internet service; and to ensure that they are able to listen to digital radio and to Northsound, if that is what they want to listen to on that morning.

I hope Minister will be able to give me a significant degree of comfort on this and convince me that this is something that the Government are considering and taking account of, something that they recognise is important and that they do expect people to be able to find the radio stations they want.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

A not insignificant amount of listening—around a quarter of all radio listening—still takes place in the car, so it is a really important area for voice activation. It is really important that the Government look closely at this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I understand the intention behind the amendments, but the purpose of the Bill is to protect the public value of live licensed radio, as secured within the regulatory framework. The effect of the measure proposed by the hon. Member for Barnsley East would extend the scope of the regime to content that, notwithstanding its source, is unregulated. That would significantly broaden the scope of the legislation and risk placing disproportionate burdens on the platforms, as well as potentially delaying the implementation of the regime by Ofcom. It would also exclude similar content produced by independent producers and distributed as podcasts.

The hon. Lady raised the issue that Nick Ferrari’s show on LBC might fall within the regulatory framework, but that Jon Sopel and Emily Maitlis might fall outside it. The effect of the hon. Lady’s proposal would be to bring “The News Agents” within the scope of the framework, because it is produced by Global, but “The Rest is Politics” with Rory Stewart and Mr Campbell would be outside the regulatory framework because it is produced by Goalhanger and is therefore not captured by the measure.

[Andy Carter]

I want to set out where I think there may be problems. Historically, many radio stations have created what is called “split content”. That could be during ad breaks, for example—if someone is listening on FM, they would hear one set of adverts, but if they are listening on AM, they would hear a different set of adverts. In the situation where a radio station decides to broadcast a set of adverts on FM—perhaps a local set of adverts aimed at Warrington—but decides to put national adverts on its internet streaming platform, because it is heard all over the UK, there would be two very different programmes going out for two or three minutes. That is where there is some concern about different content for a period of time; while it is being broadcast live, different content is inserted into the stream. That is somewhere where there is slight confusion.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I understand the point that my hon. Friend is getting at, but the provisions of the Bill are about live radio, and I think that the example he gave would be captured, because it is still live radio. The provision relates to non-live radio in the form of podcasts. I take the point that my hon. Friend makes, and I am happy to follow it up with a bit more detail, if that would be helpful.

As I said, the purpose of the Bill is about live radio, which remains the main way in which audio content is consumed. The Government committed, in their response to the digital radio and audio review, to revisiting those issues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman]

To be fair, the third category that the Minister mentioned is not something that I brought up. It is something that he has included as a category—not me. I am still clear that there is asymmetry between the on-demand services. I understand that he is trying to protect access to live radio, and I get that. Surely the Bill is also trying to protect access to live TV? It is trying to protect access to public service broadcast.

The Minister and the Government have agreed and understood that people are watching live TV on catch-up. They are saying that a broadcaster’s public service obligations can include on-demand services because of the number of people that are watching television on catch-up. It is exactly the same with radio. I do not understand how he can suggest that the line be drawn where it has been. To me, protecting live radio and live television means protecting access to those on-demand and catch-up services for the same programmes that someone would be listening to on demand.

[Andy Carter]

I am fairly sympathetic to what the hon. Lady is saying, although I have to say that there is a slight difference, as there is no provision in the Bill for public service elements of a licence to be delivered through on-demand services. There is a difference, I am afraid, and I think the Minister is right in that respect.

[Kirsty Blackman]

There is provision for public service elements of television to be delivered through on-demand services in the Bill. I do not see why people would not understand that there is the same benefit in accessing this stuff on demand. On radio programming, whether I listen to “Wake Up to Money” at 5 am or 3 pm, I am still getting the same public service benefit from listening to that. I can understand why the BBC, when it is having charter negotiations, might be saying, “We produce this programme, however many people listen to it at the time. Many people listen to it on catch-up, so this is part of the public service benefit and public service good that we provide for the licence fee as part of our charter obligations and as part of our relationship with the Government and with the general public.”

Turning to the amendments that I have tabled, there possibly are different amendments that could have a similar effect on on-demand services and catch-up. I would appreciate some flexibility from the Minister. I understand that the Government are trying to legislate for live radio, but they have chosen to draw an arbitrary line. It would be better if the line were slightly further over than it is. We will have to disagree, so I would like to press amendment 45 to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Carter]

There is something really interesting around data sharing, particularly for a commercial station’s audience. Commercial stations sell advertising based on the number of ears listening. If all of the data is controlled by the platforms and there is no way for radio stations to access that data, the ability for a commercial operator to continue to sell advertising is significantly limited. Where we have operated previously in a linear environment, diaries placed in people’s homes provide a certain level of data. But the ability for online services to provide much more transparency around the audiences that they deliver is controlled by a third party, and that becomes incredibly dangerous and difficult. So I think there is something in data sharing that we should perhaps consider. The issue also exists for many other forms of media as well. It is similar for TV, for example—it is not just limited to radio.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. It is not just limited to radio, but the BBC has control over iPlayer and can see how many people are viewing it, whereas it has much less control and understanding in relation to things streamed through tech platforms. We cannot stream BBC programmes other than through the iPlayer, but its radio programmes can be streamed other than through BBC Sounds.

To give a level of reassurance on the data sharing, it is not about sharing personal data that people do not consent to being shared. If we set up a new mobile phone, for example, it asks if we are willing to share data and information. I would ask for data sharing to happen only for people who have consented to their data being shared, which a lot of people do.

Lastly, I want to touch on amendment 52, which is about pre-roll advertising. The amendment would clarify that pre-roll advertising would be allowed only if it is something that the radio provider had requested. I think that is the direction that the Minister and the Government are going in, anyway, but we need clarification about pre-roll advertising because I would like the provider of the selected service to agree to it.

We have mentioned already the basis on which commercial radio is run, how advertising pays for commercial radio and how it is able to produce its services and sell them because it can provide adverts that are relevant to people. If every time we listen to Classic FM, we get an advertisement that Classic FM has not consented to, we might end up in a situation where people say, “I don’t want to listen to 30 seconds of adverts. I will just listen to something else.” It should be Classic FM that is making that choice, not the tech services through which it is being streamed. Radio providers should be the ones making the decisions, because it should be their judgment whether it is worth playing those 30 seconds of advertising, whether that will turn people off, and whether it is the right commercial choice to include it in their service. It should be the providers’ choice, rather than that of the tech platforms. Amendment 52 relates specifically to that.