Fuel Poverty

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Michael Shanks]

The hon. Gentleman, as always, makes a very good point, although I noticed that he called the shadow Minister his friend but not me. But, over time, I think we will build on that and—

[Andrew Bowie]

Aspire to that.

[Michael Shanks]

I aspire to that—quite. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a number of important points, and I have to confess that I was not aware of the statistic that he cited. That puts the difference into stark contrast, so I absolutely take the point.

The hon. Gentleman spoke earlier about engaging with the Northern Irish Executive. I have met both Ministers with responsibility for different parts of the energy policy—most recently, in fact, in the inter-ministerial working group across all the devolved nations. One of the key topics that we discussed was decarbonisation, particularly of such households, so we absolutely are taking that issue forward.

I am conscious of time, Sir Roger, so I will just pick up on a couple of other points that hon. Members raised. The hon. Member for Wokingham (Clive Jones) tempted me to be drawn into Beveridge’s “five giants”. Actually, I think that is an important statement about where this Government have come in, because it feels to me like want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness are yet again the five giants that we have to tackle as a country, and we are tackling them all as quickly as we can. I take his point, but it brings into stark contrast the fact that we have come in with some really tough decisions to make. There are pressing needs in the NHS, the education system, housing and energy, and we are doing what we can to improve all those. The Budget last week was about fixing the foundations and investing in our public services again. We can undoubtedly do more, but we are moving forward as quickly as we can.

I want to touch on consumer protection, which a number of Members have raised, and the point of the regulator. The ministerial team in the Department have had a number of meetings with Ofgem over a variety of issues, but there is no doubt—Ofgem shares this view—that suppliers could do much more to protect customers and provide them with a better quality of service. We are therefore looking at how we strengthen the regulator—a consultation is under way—so that it can hold companies to account for wrongdoing, require higher performance standards and ensure that there are much better levels of compensation when providers fail.

Last year, Ofgem introduced much more stringent rules around the involuntary installation of prepayment meters, an issue that I raised in one of my first questions after I was elected to Parliament. That was a shocking situation, but much more stringent requirements are now in place. We continue to monitor the situation to see whether much more is required.

I thank all hon. Members who have participated in the debate. There is agreement across all parties that this issue is extremely important. Progress has stalled in recent years, and we now need to make significant advances. The Government are committed to slashing fuel poverty. We will do that through the fuel poverty strategy for England, and also, we will look across the whole of the UK at what we can do with our energy system to reduce bills and provide more secure energy for everyone, and to improve home standards. We will do that by protecting low-income and vulnerable consumers and by trying to raise households out of poverty across the board. Our strategy on child poverty, the raising of the minimum wage and other factors combine to support households struggling in fuel poverty.

We will no doubt return to this topic again. We do not pretend to have all the answers, so we are open to any ideas from hon. Members right across the House. Together, we can tackle this issue, but it needs concerted effort and investment, and this Government have started that.

Great British Energy Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Committee stage
Tuesday 15th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Michael Shanks]

I know that the Conservative party is in shifting political sands at the moment, but I was not expecting this morning to lead with such a full-throated defence of Thatcher—I do not think she is in the running for the leadership of the party.

[Andrew Bowie]

A shame.

[Michael Shanks]

Some things are outwith even the hon. Gentleman’s powers.

There are a number of reasons why we will resist amendment 20. First—I have made this point a number of times—the Bill is about making the minimum possible provisions to support the establishment of the company. Great British Energy will be operationally independent and, although directed at key points by the Secretary of State, its financial responsibilities will be the same as any other company, subject to all the regulations and laws that any company in this country has to face.

The amendment would introduce unnecessary detail into the Bill. As the hon. Gentleman would have agreed in previous Bills that he was involved in, this is an unnecessary amendment, and he would be making that exact argument if he was standing where I am today. As a publicly owned company, Great British Energy will be accountable through regular reporting to the Department, and its annual accounts and reports will be laid before Parliament so that Parliament can see them in detail. As a publicly owned company, it will also be subject to HM Treasury’s value-for-money guidelines. Like all existing public finance institutions, its investments will be subject to the usual safeguards and risk assessments to minimise the risk to taxpayers.

As I said in our last sitting, the purpose of clause 6 is for the Secretary of State to give direction to the company only in the most urgent or unforeseen circumstances. It is not for day-to-day operational reasons; I gave the example last time of national security issues. The power is meant to be used sparingly to ensure that Great British Energy has the space it requires to fulfil its role and deliver its strategic priorities. The amendment would change the intention of the clause, which is one reason we will resist it today.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Secretary of State will set Great British Energy’s strategic priorities to ensure that it remains aligned to current Government policy and strategy. It is therefore appropriate that we use clause 5 to set Great British Energy’s strategic priorities and objectives, not clause 6.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State, rightly, has ambitions for Great British Energy—as the whole Government do and as I hope the whole House does. Those achievable objectives will be achieved through the funding envelope set for it by Parliament, backed by £8.3 billion of new money over the lifetime of this Parliament, and working in partnership with the private sector, local authorities and communities to spread skilled jobs and investment across the country.

Great British Energy’s aim is to become a financially sustainable, self-financing organisation in the long term, reinvesting its profits in the Treasury or into new projects. Therefore, I assure the hon. Gentleman that Great British Energy will be held accountable for the delivery of its objectives through the usual mechanisms. For those reasons, the Government will not support his amendment today and I hope that he withdraws it.

[Andrew Bowie]

I am sad not to hear a full-throated defence of Mrs Thatcher’s legacy when it comes to climate change—maybe the Minister is more of a “Hug a husky”, “Vote blue, go green” kind of guy in the Cameron mould.

[Michael Shanks]

You were once!

[Andrew Bowie]

Well, that was a long time ago. Although I do not agree with all those arguments for not accepting the amendment, I will not press it to a vote. We will explore those points more deeply, however, on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Andrew Bowie]

I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—

“(1A) (a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on—

(i) Great British Energy’s in-year rate of return on investment, and

(ii) a forecast of the following year’s expected rate of return on investment.

(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.

(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”

Amendment 21 would require Great British Energy to provide an annual report to Parliament on its annual rate of return and investment, and a projection for the following year’s expected rate of return on investment. We heard from the Minister that every project will see a return—we heard it on the Floor of the House—and, as discussed under amendments 11 and 12, GB Energy will drive household bills down by £300. In line with that, it would be useful to include in the legislation a direction for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State on its in-year rate of return on investments, and a forecast of the following year’s expected rate of return on investment.

We heard assurances from the Government that GB Energy will return lower bills for households, and indeed, as I said, that every project will see a return. As it is a company that intends to invest in and de-risk projects in rising new clean energy technologies, it would be useful to see the return on investment from those projects—statutorily, in the Bill. I imagine that the Minister will have no issue in accepting this amendment, given his confidence in the financial success of GB Energy, and indeed his confidence that every project will generate a return.

[Michael Shanks]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for succinctly introducing his amendment; I will be succinct in my response. In debates about previous amendments, I made the points—I will not repeat them—that we should not add unnecessary burdens to the Bill or use the power in clause 6 for different purposes. I know he takes that argument seriously. Amendment 21 significantly widens clause 6 from its intention, which is why we will not support it.

I reiterate, however, that Great British Energy will operate not through some extra-legal mechanism, but in the exact same way as every other company in the UK, and will be responsible in the usual way, under the Companies Act 2006, for the presentation of its accounts. In addition to filing those accounts, financial information, annual reports and so on with Companies House, they will of course be laid before Parliament, and I will personally make sure that the hon. Gentleman receives a copy the moment that it is printed—he can hold me to that—so that, quite rightly, he can scrutinise them.

It is important to say that the day-to-day financial management of the company will be in line with Government regulations. The point of setting up Great British Energy as an independent company is that it will have an expert fiduciary board that will scrutinise the accounts in the usual manner. For those reasons, we do not think that amendment 21 is necessary.

[Andrew Bowie]

While not accepting all of the Minister’s arguments, I look forward to him personally presenting me with the financial returns. I will not press amendment 21 to a vote, but we will obviously explore the issues in more detail when the Bill returns to the Floor of the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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[Andrew Bowie]

Thank you, Dr Huq. When the hon. Member for East Thanet has a spare moment or is struggling to sleep at night, I advise her to go back and review the Hansard of our contributions to the Energy Bill Committee in the last Parliament, during which we debated such points at length.

[Michael Shanks]

Inspirational!

[Andrew Bowie]

It was inspirational. The Minister is absolutely right; they were inspirational speeches. Indeed, we talked about those issues at great length. When in government, I was proud to launch a consultation on community benefits, for example, which has still not been implemented. Although it is outside the scope of our discussion, it would be interesting to get an update from the Government on when they will bring forward the community benefits package and if any changes will be made to the package unveiled by us last November.

I return to the discussion on consultation and consent. In an attempt to reduce the burden on communities, we pledged to have a review into the presumption for overhead lines and to examine all other options that would be cost-comparable so as not to inflict that huge burden on communities.

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[Andrew Bowie]

It is precisely because we do not have all the answers that we commissioned that review in the very last days of the last Parliament, which we committed to in our manifesto and which sadly has been abandoned by the Labour Government.

It should be incumbent on Great British Energy to take into account the challenges that we all acknowledge we face to ensure that the investments that it undertakes give the best value for money on behalf of British taxpayers, whose money is invested in the funds for the company. It should also ensure that each project has grid connectivity available at the right time so that it is a worthwhile investment and returns can be realised as soon as possible from each investment.

[Michael Shanks]

I have to say that of all the amendments before the Committee, I find this one utterly extraordinary. The shadow Minister’s amendment says that Great British Energy

“must take all reasonable steps to satisfy itself at the time of any investment in…infrastructure that connection to the National Grid will be made in time for energy produced from the relevant investment asset coming onstream.”

The recognition, after 14 years, that dealing with the issues with connections to the national grid should somehow be important is extraordinary. For the hon. Gentleman to wake up this morning, just a few months after leaving government, and decide that fixing this problem is a massive priority is quite something.

I am genuinely concerned by some of the language that we have heard today. The shadow Minister spoke, quite rightly, about Cameronian support for the climate. I wonder whether the Conservative party, after such a short time, ever takes a look at itself and wonders whether the rhetoric that it uses about the mechanisms we are going to use to tackle the climate crisis is in the right place. I know we have some net zero sceptics in the running to lead the party, but it is quite extraordinary to say in one breath that there are huge connectivity challenges for the country and that communities are “under siege”.

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[Michael Shanks]

My hon. Friend never misses an opportunity to mention Cornwall, but let us not relitigate our earlier argument.

There are huge opportunities. The hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan made the important point that there are certain parts of the country, particularly in the north of Scotland, where for obvious reasons there are a number of wind projects, and we need to look at the infrastructure that comes with that. We want to ensure we build the nationally important infrastructure to deal with the connections issue that the shadow Minister rightly raises, but we also need to recognise the need for cohesion in planning to make sure that there are not some of the issues that we have seen in other parts of the UK, where a number of projects have come on stream over time rather than being planned coherently.

Finally, on community involvement, the point about consent in dealings with communities is important. We want to take some of the previous Government’s work on consulting on community benefits—we will say more on this in the coming months—to make sure that there is genuine community benefit in hosting not just energy generation infrastructure, but network infrastructure, which will be critical. Nothing that we have said runs roughshod over the planning and consenting process, which will remain for communities.

[Andrew Bowie]

The Minister is being typically generous with his time. He says that nothing will ride roughshod over the planning and consent regime and allowing communities to have their say. Am I to take it from that that there are no plans afoot to resolve the Scottish planning and consenting issues that remain as a result of its being governed by the Electricity Act 1989 while the rest of the United Kingdom is governed by the Planning Act 2008 on electricity, which means that the automatic right to public inquiry remains in Scotland? Is the Minister assuring the Committee and me that that right will remain and that he has no plans to resolve that issue?

[Michael Shanks]

The question of balance, which I was just about to come to, is important. The right to a public inquiry can be triggered by a much smaller number of people in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, so there have been real issues: communities do not generally have a view, so individuals or campaign organisations trigger public inquiries. We are looking at the consenting regime, as I think the hon. Gentleman’s Government was, to bring balance to this.

Balance is key. The Government, from the Prime Minister down, have been clear that we will need to build this infrastructure, which is nationally important for all the reasons that the shadow Minister set out. That is why the amendment is so extraordinary. The shadow Minister said that we need to tackle the huge connectivity challenge—I wrote that down—and the Bill is the mechanism for doing that. Balance is key: my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made it clear that we want communities to benefit from having a stake in what Great British Energy will deliver, but it is important that we get on with building this infrastructure. For those reasons, we will not support the amendment.

[Andrew Bowie]

Right hon. and hon. Members have made some disparaging comments about the Conservative legacy on our climate, but I remind them that we halved our carbon emissions faster than any other G7 nation, built the first floating offshore wind farms in the world, ended coal for power generation and led the world in so many other ways, including developing new technologies and delivering the very successful COP26 conference in Glasgow. It is because our views on this are so aligned that I think the amendment would sit well within the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

I am hoping that at some point someone will want to take part in a debate, to save the Committee from hearing only from me.

Clause 8 sets out the extent of the Bill, which is important, and its commencement. The Act will come into force immediately on its passing, reflecting the fact that setting it up has been one of the Government’s key priorities, which is why we commenced the process and introduced the Bill to the House within our first 100 days.

It is important to us that the Bill reach the full territorial extent of the United Kingdom and that it benefit citizens in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We have shared net zero targets across the whole UK. Clearly the devolved Administrations have different responsibilities for different aspects of energy policy—it is generally reserved, but in Northern Ireland it is transferred—so the role of Great British Energy will be slightly different in different parts of the UK, but it is important to say that the investments that Great British Energy makes can still drive deployment, create jobs, boost energy independence and ensure that taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy across the UK.

I thank the devolved Administrations, who have engaged with me since my appointment as Minister on the Bill. We have had detailed and helpful conversations with my counterparts in all the devolved Governments across the UK. I thank them for how they have engaged in our discussions: they have been supportive of Great British Energy, recognising the benefits that it brings to all parts of the UK, while clearly advocating on behalf of their own Governments. It is important that we continue that. My commitment to them and to the Committee is that we will continue the process after the Bill passes to ensure that we have a company that delivers for all the people of this United Kingdom. I thank them for their constructive and collaborative approach. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 2

Review of effective delivery

“(1) The Secretary of State must appoint an independent person to carry out reviews of the effectiveness of Great British Energy in—

(a) delivering its objects under section 3,

(b) meeting its strategic priorities under section 5, and

(c) complying with any directions given under section 6.

(2) After each review, the independent person must—

(a) prepare a report of the review, and

(b) submit the report to the Secretary of State,

as soon as is reasonably practicable after the completion of the review.

(3) The independent person must submit to the Secretary of State—

(a) the first report under this section within the period of 12 months beginning on the day on which this Act comes into force, and

(b subsequent reports at intervals of no more than 12 months thereafter.

(4) On receiving the report, the Secretary of State must, as soon as is reasonably practicable in each case—

(a) publish the report,

(b) lay a copy of the report before Parliament, and

(c) prepare and lay before Parliament a response to the report’s findings.

(5) In this section, references to an ‘independent person’ are to a person who appears to the Secretary of State to be independent of—

(a) the Secretary of State, and

(b) Great British Energy.”—(Andrew Bowie.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Andrew Bowie]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Secretary of State is establishing a new state-run body—for the record, that is something that I oppose—of which the energy sector has many. For example, we have the UK Infrastructure Bank, an organisation that has many similarities with Great British Energy. As with UKIB, the Bill aims to give statutory force to the company’s objectives. However, unlike the legislation for UKIB, the Bill does not endeavour to create statutory forms of transparency, accountability and governance for the firm, so it is concerning that the Great British Energy Bill gives the Secretary of State sole powers of direction. We cannot possibly think why that would appeal to the Secretary of State, so my new clause 2 would ensure a level of independence in the governance of Great British Energy.

The Minister said on Thursday that Great British Energy would be “operationally independent”, but it lacks specific, key components to ensure that. Indeed, it seems that a significant level of direction lies with the Secretary of State. I suggest to the Minister that accepting the new clause to introduce a requirement for an independent person to review the effectiveness of Great British Energy in delivering its objects would ensure its independence and transparency.

There is a precedent in the legislation on the UK Infrastructure Bank for the designation of an independent person to carry out reviews into the effectiveness of GB Energy. If that does not happen, we are concerned that any review of its effectiveness may be perceived externally as Great British Energy simply marking its own homework. If the UK Infrastructure Bank has appointed an independent person to conduct reviews of its effectiveness, why are the Government so reluctant to set out the same standards for Great British Energy?

[Michael Shanks]

I thank the shadow Minister for his attempt to add an additional clause to the Bill. I will speak briefly about why we do not support new clause 2, but I agree with him on the importance of ensuring that Great British Energy be accountable, transparent and clear about how it is delivering on its objectives. We absolutely want to see that as well.

We believe that the Bill is in a strong place at the moment. It will, of course, utilise all the mechanisms already in place for other companies, including publicly owned companies, through its annual reports and accounts. It will provide regular updates on its work, meeting its objectives and the stewardship of the public funds that it is given. It is important to recognise that the reports, accounts, other information and directions that have been given will be laid before Parliament and will therefore be readily available to hon. Members. In the same way as any other company operating in the UK, Great British Energy will undergo external audit of its accounts, providing a further level of assurance. It will be expected to publish its own strategic plan on how it will deliver its objectives, which will be laid before Parliament.

I do not think it proportionate to add another mechanism for an annual independent review. I note the shadow Minister’s point about the UK Infrastructure Bank, but the rhythm of independent review was that it would happen once the bank had been operating for seven years and would be repeated at intervals of no more than five years. I do not think the new clause proportionate to what was introduced in the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023.

In the light of what my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington described as the shadow Minister’s secret support for the Bill—he doth protest a little too much in saying that he opposes it—I would hate to suggest that the new clause was some kind of mechanism to stymie the action of Great British Energy. However, the frequent cadence that the shadow Minister proposes for the review would considerably interrupt the work of the company in actually delivering. It would be under almost continuous review, which does not seem proportionate or effective for a company that we aim to move in a nimble and speedy way to deliver for the British people. I would rather Great British Energy got on with delivering for the British people on its important mission to deliver projects to benefit all the United Kingdom. We will not support the new clause.

[Andrew Bowie]

I am disappointed that the Minister will not accept the new clause. We have some concerns about transparency and accountability, which we will explore further on Report. I will not push new clause 2 to a vote today—not least because I seem to have lost my Whip, but also because we wish to explore the issue on the Floor of the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 3

Directors: appointment and tenure

“Great British Energy must secure that its articles of association provide that—

(a) Great British Energy is to have at least five and no more than fourteen directors;

(b) the chair of Great British Energy’s board, Great British Energy’s chief executive officer and the non-executive directors are to be appointed by the Secretary of State;

(c) the Board is to appoint one or more directors to be responsible for ensuring that the Board considers the interests of the appropriate national authorities when making decisions;

(d) the period of a non-executive director’s appointment is not to exceed four years, or such shorter period as may be specified in the terms on which the director is appointed;

(e) a person may be appointed as a non-executive director no more than two times;

(f) a person ceases to be a non-executive director as soon as—

(i) the person ceases to be a director by virtue of any provision of the Companies Act 2006 or is prohibited from being a director by law,

(ii) the person becomes bankrupt (in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland) or the person’s estate has been sequestrated (in relation to Scotland),

(iii) a registered medical practitioner who is treating the person gives a written opinion to Great British Energy stating that the person has become physically or mentally incapable of acting as a director and is likely to remain so for more than three months, or the person has resigned as non-executive director in accordance with notification which the person has given to Great British Energy.”—(Andrew Bowie.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

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[Michael Shanks]

I was going to end on an argument about why the Conservative party is in such a rut, but the hon. Gentleman has changed the tone completely. I feel lost with my political attacks, so I will move swiftly on to why new clause 3 is not necessary.

I will not detain the Committee long. The argument is clear that there are quite established governance arrangements in place for companies of this type, and it is not necessary for primary legislation to make provision on the detail of the board of directors. There are a number of very well-established governance documents that set the course for this. The UK corporate governance code published by the Financial Reporting Council sets out best practice, to which Great British Energy will conform.

The interim chair Juergen Maier, whom we met last week, is in place to start up the company. Recruitment is under way for other key posts, and the permanent chair and the non-executive directors will be recruited in due course. The governance code on public appointments will make it clear how those will be carried out; they will be regulated by the Commissioner for Public Appointments. Although I recognise the shadow Minister’s legitimate points about transparency and accountability, I think his new clause unnecessary.

Rather than giving my prepared remarks criticising the Conservatives’ position, let me gently say that I am grateful that in the three days on which the Committee has met, the shadow Minister has moved closer and closer to voting Aye. I am confident that by Report he will be in the right Lobby. I welcome that move.

I genuinely thank all hon. Members for serving on the Committee; it has been a pleasure. Dr Huq, I thank you and Sir Roger for your stewardship of the Committee, along with everyone who has been involved in delivering its sittings. I also thank all our witnesses who gave their time freely last Tuesday. It was quite a lengthy session, but they gave important evidence—not least because every single witness confirmed how important Great British Energy is to delivering our mission to move to clean power by 2030.

As it has been three months now that I have had the privilege of having this job, I will finish by echoing the shadow Minister’s points, which were heartfelt, genuine and absolutely right, about the exceptional skill and qualifications of civil servants in what was once the Department of Energy and Climate Change. A change of Government is a considerable thing for the civil service, but it has moved at pace, as the Government have. I give real credit to the civil servants who make things happen and who so often do not get the credit for their hard work. I thank them all, and I thank hon. Members for their consideration. I do not support new clause 3, but I thank everyone for their time today.

[Andrew Bowie]

I will not push new clause 3 to a vote. We will discuss the issue further on Report, but I will not detain the Committee any longer. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Michael Shanks]

I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s wholehearted support for Great British Energy. That is fantastic. I did not know that, so that is wonderful, and I thank him for that great support. It has really cheered my whole day, in fact, that I now have his support. Things can only get better, as we say.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about efficiency measures, we are already taking a number of steps on that matter in other areas. For example, our warm homes plan will transform homes across the country, making energy in individual homes cleaner and cheaper to run. We announced a local grants programme to support that. Of course, that does not apply in Scotland, where such work is devolved. I think the Scottish Government could probably do more in this policy area. The Scottish Government have made significant budget cuts to projects—£133 million was taken out of energy efficiency measures in 2022 and 2023—so I think work could be done across the board on the matter.

On the point about updating Parliament, it is really important that we are talking about a publicly owned energy company. It will be independent of Government, but of course it will be responsible to Parliament in the way that any other independent companies wholly owned by the Secretary of State are. A copy of the strategic priorities will be laid before Parliament. Any directions given to Great British Energy by the Secretary of State will be laid before Parliament. Of course, there are already several other mechanisms that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, as an extremely well-versed parliamentarian—far more so than I am—knows he can avail himself of.

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

In respect of the point that the Minister has just made, and also the point that he made to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, who represents the Liberal Democrats, he said that the strategic priorities would be laid before Parliament. Does he have a timescale for that? He said it would be far quicker than six months, so are we talking about before Christmas? Are we talking about before the November recess? Does he have in mind a date when the strategic priorities may be laid before Parliament?

[Michael Shanks]

If the hon. Gentleman is proposing that the Bill will be through Parliament by Christmas, that would be great—we could move forward. Of course, we need the Bill to have Royal Assent before we can move forward. I welcome his co-operation on making sure that it has a swift passage through the House of Lords and the Commons. We will move as quickly as possible. It is in no one’s interest, let alone that of a Government who are moving as quickly as possible to deliver this, for it to be delayed any further.

Finally, the requirement in new clause 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, to report to Parliament on energy efficiency measures is unnecessary because there are already many mechanisms for that. We have been consistently clear that Great British Energy will be operationally independent. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will therefore not press his new clause to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

Amendments 2 and 9 seek to add provisions on community energy to the Bill. As I have said in a number of answers in Parliament and in our session on Tuesday, support for community energy is something that I absolutely share, and it is clearly shared by a number of hon. Members across the House. It will be an integral part not just of Great British Energy, but of the Government’s entire energy strategy. That is why the local power plan is a key part of Great British Energy’s delivery model, and it goes broader than GB Energy, to every other part of Government policy on energy.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar pointed out, it is essential that communities are involved. It is not a nice-to-have; it is critical. If we are to build the infrastructure we will need in future, we want communities across the country to reap the rewards. A key part of that is community-driven projects and community-owned projects.

[Andrew Bowie]

Last year, almost to the day, we launched the £10 million fund for community energy projects, building on the success of previous community funds, to be delivered through local energy hubs. How does the Minister envisage Great British Energy working with those local hubs to deliver those community projects that we announced funding for last year?

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[Michael Shanks]

In summary, clause 3 is about restricting Great British Energy’s activities to those specifically listed in the Bill, around “facilitating, encouraging and participating” in clean energy projects, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving energy efficiency, and ensuring energy security in the long term. Clause 3 thus provides the framework for Great British Energy to carry out the five functions outlined in its founding statement.

I turn to the objects set out in clause 3. Clause 3(2)(a) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage and participate in clean energy projects. Clean energy is defined in the Bill as

“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels”.

The object will enable Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence.

Clause 3(2)(b) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage or participate in projects that would contribute to the reduction of greenhouse gases from energy produced from fossil fuels. Building on some of the evidence we heard on Tuesday, I want to be very clear that that includes, for example, projects relating to carbon capture and storage, or blue hydrogen.

Clause 3(2)(c) will enable Great British Energy to deliver measures to improve energy efficiency. That could include, for example, supporting demand reduction through the local power plant.

Clause 3(2)(d) will enable Great British Energy to respond to any future energy crisis, and deliver measures to support the long-term security of supply. Great British Energy is part of a bold, long-term strategy to harness our nation’s clean energy potential, and ensure that we reduce our exposure to the volatile fossil fuel markets.

Through those objects, clause 3 provides the framework from which Great British Energy can carry out its five functions. Although the five functions are set out in the founding statement rather than in the Bill, it would be helpful to refer to them in the context of clause 3. First, Great British Energy will invest in and own energy projects. Secondly, Great British Energy will lead projects through their early development stages, to speed up delivery while capturing value for the British people. Thirdly, Great British Energy will deliver our local power plan, working with local authorities, combined authorities and communities to deliver the biggest expansion of community owned energy in British history. Fourthly, Great British Energy will work with industry to develop supply chains across the UK to boost energy independence, but also, crucially, to create good, well-paid, trade unionised jobs.

[Andrew Bowie]

On the point about supply chains, the sustainable industry rewards were being designed to come with the next auction round next year. How will GB Energy work alongside the existing frameworks to deliver those sustainable industry rewards, to ensure that we build up the domestic supply chain that everybody across the parties wants?

[Michael Shanks]

That is an important point. We will announce more about allocation round 7 in due course, and how our industrial work and British jobs will work together to create those supply chains. It is an important point about the broad nature of what we want to do: to give confidence to industry that a pipeline of projects will be coming long into the future—beyond 2030, actually, although that is our initial key target—so that it is worth investing in and building the factories and supply chains in the UK. Great British Energy will be part of that, but it will certainly not be the entirety of it. We are working with the national wealth fund and the UK Infrastructure Bank to deliver more of those projects in the UK.

The final function, which the shadow Minister will appreciate, is that Great British Energy will help advance the work of Great British Nuclear. We will say more in due course about exactly how those two organisations work together. Those five functions enable Great British Energy to deliver on its clear mission of driving forward clean energy deployment, boosting our energy independence, creating good jobs and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean and secure home-grown energy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

Great British Energy will be operationally independent, with the Secretary of State as the sole shareholder. To operate, Great British Energy clearly needs funding, and clause 4 will give the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy. That is so that GB Energy can take action in line with its statutory objects set out in clause 3, including financing its investments, joint ventures and day-to-day running costs.

To be clear, our intention is that Great British Energy will become financially self-sufficient in the long term. Great British Energy will invest in projects and expect a return on investments, generating revenue and delivering profits that benefit the public. It will also create tens of thousands of good jobs. However, it is prudent to ensure that the Secretary of State has the power to provide further financial support if required. Just as private sector companies would rely on the financial strength of their corporate groups to raise funds, there could be a case for providing Great British Energy with further financial support for specific projects in the future. The clause will enable that.

I assure the Committee that any further financial assistance to Great British Energy provided by the Secretary of State will of course be subject to the usual governance and control principles applicable to public sector bodies, such as His Majesty’s Treasury’s “Managing Public Money”.

Finally, in the highly unlikely situation of Great British Energy facing financial difficulty, the powers set out in clause 4 would allow the Secretary of State to step in to help prevent any disruption to Great British Energy’s intended interventions. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Andrew Bowie]

I am comforted that the Minister thinks it very unlikely that GB Energy will get into any financial difficulty. But let us look at state-owned energy companies around the world. Just last year, for example, EDF—a fantastic company investing a lot into the United Kingdom—had to be bailed out to the tune of about €20 billion. Although I am comforted by his assurance, I think we would like to see a little more evidence for that assertion before moving forward.

The Minister says that any financial assistance will be governed by the usual processes of being accountable to Parliament, and that the Secretary of State would be, should that be the case, but clause 4(3) states:

“Financial assistance under this section may be provided subject to any conditions the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

Should it not be conditions that Parliament considers appropriate? Will the Minister expand more on what those conditions might be?

[Michael Shanks]

I am always willing to give the hon. Gentleman comfort, in this and many other things. On both those points, the Bill quite rightly says that it is subject to any particular requirements of the Secretary of State. That is about saying that, instead of giving money to a company without any requirements, requirements will of course be put on what that funding is for—a fairly standard thing that I think we would expect.

On the broader point about parliamentary scrutiny, there are of course a number of mechanisms through which Parliament can bring scrutiny to these decisions. As I have already said, it will be outlined that any additional funding that should be given to GB Energy in the future will be in the course of the normal processes of any financial transactions that the Government undertake.

I think this is important, though: the hon. Gentleman has used the EDF example on a number of occasions, but he does not often reference the other side of the equation —hugely successful state-owned companies around the world. The truth, in all this Bill, is that for the first time in more than 70 years we are delivering a publicly owned energy company in this country, in the same vision as many of the publicly owned energy companies that are hugely successful around the world and delivering huge returns to their taxpayers every single year.

We are starting off GB Energy on a much smaller scale —of course we are—but, in time, we see it as a vehicle for delivering some of the huge successes that those companies have, and delivering a huge return to the public. We believe that public ownership of infrastructure is a good thing, and we hope that we can convince hon. Members across the House that this is the right thing to take forward.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

For the reasons I have already outlined, that is implicit in the policy; it is why we are doing it. I think the shadow Minister agreed in response to one of my hon. Friends that this is a useful approach to reducing bills, and the push towards green energy is important.

[Andrew Bowie]

indicated assent.

[Michael Shanks]

The shadow Minister nods in support. I look forward to his support for the Bill as a vehicle for delivering it.

[Andrew Bowie]

indicated dissent.

[Michael Shanks]

He stops short of that.

The shadow Minister spoke earlier about the rising bills caused by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, as if somehow the UK had no vulnerabilities that particularly exposed us to that invasion. Of course it was an external factor, but it led to huge price spikes in this country, and we are still exposed to volatile fossil fuel markets. We are determined to push towards energy security through cleaner green energy. That is moving at pace—our recent renewables auction was the biggest we have ever had, with 131 projects—and Great British Energy will drive that forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

I fully suspect that in my time as Energy Minister, I will come back to the hon. Lady’s question. It is an important one, and I am very happy to discuss it.

Turning back to the amendments, we have been very clear that the creation of Great British Energy is about helping us to harness clean energy and reduce our reliance on volatile fossil fuels. But it is important—with the patience of the Chair—to outline the other things that we are doing, more broadly than Great British Energy and the Bill. It is important that Labour’s reforms dovetail with what Great British Energy is doing, particularly the review of market arrangements started by the previous Government. We will conclude that work.

We will continue to deliver the warm home discount, which provides a £150 annual rebate off energy bills for eligible low-income households. We are also looking at the burden placed on bills by standing charges, which still make up too much of so many people’s bills; the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham, is looking at that now. We are working with Ofgem to look at how we can reduce that.

There is a series of measures that are all important and that all work towards the same goal. GB Energy is one of those, and it is important that we implement it as quickly as possible so that we can move forward with increasing our capacity for cheaper energy and reduce bills in the long term. For that reason, the amendments are not necessary.

[Andrew Bowie]

The Minister has our full support on the broad approach that he is taking on market frameworks, standing charges and working with Ofgem, given that we started that work when we were in government. However, a commitment to work towards reducing consumer bills, and specifically the £300 reduction that the Labour party promised during the election would result from the creation of Great British Energy, should be in the Bill. That is why our amendment is essential. I will press it to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Great British Energy Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Michael Shanks]

For reasons I will come to in a moment, we will not agree to the amendment because we will not put timeframes and numbers in the Bill—we do not see those in any piece of legislation from the previous Government or any other Government, and for very good reason. However, the hon. Lady is right that this decade is absolutely critical for this issue. That is why I am taking it very seriously, and will happily have conversations with her about how we get these jobs as quickly as possible. The timeframe for that is important, but it is also important that we start with building things such as Great British Energy, which I hope she will support, and our broader policy around the office for clean energy jobs, our industrial strategy and our increased investment in things such as the renewables auction.

To come back to what the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine said about offshore wind, he took some credit for it, but of course his Government have to take responsibility for the complete failure on offshore wind in the last auction. We have turned that around with some really successful projects and want to build considerably more in the future. He gave an absolute masterclass for a new Minister like me on how to speak to something—the onshore energy ban in England—that I know he does not believe in, because he is a smart guy.

The reality is that that was ideology over delivery of something critically important. Now, we have inherited not just a lack of projects that would help us towards clean power and deliver jobs right across the UK, but an empty pipeline of projects, given the length of time where wind in England was banned. It is a ridiculous policy that I do not believe for a second the hon. Gentleman supports, but it was a very good example for me on how to deliver a line.

As I said earlier, this clause is specifically about giving very particular, rare directions in urgent or unforeseen circumstances. It is not a clause we expect the Secretary of State to be using regularly. That is important, because I suspect that if it was phrased in any other way, the hon. Gentleman would quite rightly propose an amendment limiting the powers of the Secretary of State to doing exactly that. This clause is about ensuring that Great British Energy has the space to fulfil its strategic priorities. Amendment 16 would widen that intention by adding a long-term goal.

More broadly, and relevant to both the hon. Gentleman’s amendments, I repeat that the aim of Great British Energy is to be operationally independent from Government. The Bill focuses solely on making the absolutely necessary provisions to establish the company. Adding further unnecessary detail—detail I know the Conservative party would not dream of adding to any of its own legislation—risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities and goes against what we have said. That sentiment was supported by almost every witness, including on specific questions about this matter, where I think people were hoping for different answers. Every single witness confirmed that the Bill is in the right place here. For those reasons, and many others, we will not be supporting the amendments.

[Andrew Bowie]

In confirming that we will be putting the amendments to a vote, I put on the record my congratulations to the Minister, because he may have achieved what I thought was unachievable: getting the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South to welcome and support something with “Great British” in its title. That is a quite a significant achievement, if I may say so.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Bowie]

My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour is absolutely right. I completely agree. She is a doughty champion for supply chain jobs based in her constituency, in mine, in that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South and in others across the country. One reason that we have been so critical of this Labour Government’s North sea policies—the extension and increase of the energy profits levy, the removal of investment allowances, the removal of further licences in the North sea—is the impact on the domestic supply chain jobs that exist already and, by the way, on the high-skilled jobs that will deliver the cleaner energy future that we all want to get to.

That is why I and others in Committee have been so critical in the past—it is not that we do not want to see the transition; it is that we want the oil and gas industry, and those people in the supply chain who are employed by it now, to be a part of that transition. Without a successful domestic oil and gas industry or domestic supply chain, we will not deliver any of the projects that we are speaking so glowingly about in Committee and over the past few weeks, months and years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and Buchan says, it is critical for the supply chain to support net zero transition.

Security of supply chain is absolutely relevant to the objectives of GB Energy and should be included as a strategic priority, hence the amendment. I also tabled amendment 18, which would introduce the direction for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State on the progress being made towards developing domestic supply chains.

[Michael Shanks]

I am enjoying this debate more and more. I feel that by the end of today, or Tuesday at a push, we may get the hon. Gentleman’s support for Great British Energy. I look forward to that.

The very argument that the hon. Gentleman has put forward for both amendments emphasises the absolute failure of 14 years of his Government. The very fact that he is making those points emphasises how much they failed. I welcome the realisation, albeit somewhat late, that manufacturing in the UK and having jobs in this country delivering for the energy future are important. The Kincardine wind farm off the coast not far from his constituency—perhaps it is in his constituency—is a very good example. It was towed into place, with all the jobs offshored somewhere else. That example that shows why we need to do things differently. Great British Energy and our industrial strategy are part of that.

While I could spend this time criticising the previous Government, I will simply welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman has showed up to the party at all. This is a key part of what Great British Energy will do. The supply chains are critical, because 80% of the jobs in the oil and gas industry are in the supply chains, and the good, well-paid jobs we need for the future will be there too. I think it might have been the witness from the GMB who made a very good point about jobs in welding. That is a good example of where we can have real, well-paid jobs for the future if we invest in those skills now, and that is exactly what Great British Energy will do.

However, Great British Energy is not the only part that will deliver on those jobs. The Department for Business and Trade is also working at pace to develop an industrial strategy that will include detailed work on the supply chains, and we are working through the various taskforces launched under the previous Government and continued by this Government. For example, on the solar taskforce we have been looking clearly at how we can bring those jobs to the UK. The hon. Gentleman rightly talked about the security of where some of those manufacturing jobs are in the world—places in the world that we would rather they were not. Bringing some of that manufacturing capacity to the UK will be difficult in some of those industries, but it is important to do it so that we have resilient, diverse and sustainable supply chains.

My Department has also established an office for clean energy jobs, which will focus on developing the skills and the training for the workforce in core energy and net zero sectors around the transition, but also, critically, on bringing on the next generation of apprentices and workers in the skills and jobs that we did not know existed until the last few years. That will ensure the sustainability of our supply chains and meet our mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower.

Although it is welcome to hear the commitments from a Conservative party that has had something of a conversion on this issue, we do not think that amendments 17 and 18 are necessary to the Bill, because the Government are already committed to delivering our intentions.

[Andrew Bowie]

I do think that the amendments are necessary. If we are to go through the process of creating this company, we should set out as one of its objects the creation and sustainability of a UK-based supply chain, and indeed of the manufacturing jobs that come with that. For that reason, I will press amendment 17 to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

These are very important amendments, as I alluded to when discussing the last group of amendments. Since I became a Minister, I have worked very hard to reset the relationship. Indeed, the Prime Minister’s first official visit was, deliberately, to Scotland. He has set a clear expectation that all Ministers should be engaging with not just the Scottish Government but the Welsh Government and the Administration in Northern Ireland. That is particularly important in the energy space, because our priorities are broadly aligned. There are slight differences in targets and projects, but we all want to move in the same direction across all Governments of the United Kingdom, which is beneficial.

[Andrew Bowie]

I must take issue with some of the language about this reset—the normalisation of relations and the new respect agenda. We had an incredibly constructive working relationship with the Scottish Government while we were in government. Indeed, had we not, none of the projects that we see established now—we have talked about having the first to the fifth-largest offshore wind farms—and none of the discussions we are having about new technologies would actually have gotten off the ground.

A lot is made of the fact that the new Prime Minister’s first visit in office was to Scotland, but it was also the first visit of Prime Ministers Theresa May, Boris Johnson and my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak). Our commitment to working with the Scottish Government was demonstrated by what we delivered in our time in office. I very much hope that the Minister continues to enjoy his relationship with the Scottish Government, although I worry that as we move towards 2026 and the devolved election, this new warm relationship between the Labour party and the Scottish National party may become somewhat chillier.

[Michael Shanks]

I would have stopped short of the hon. Gentleman’s final point, which I will not repeat; I think that was more to salve his own conscience than to add any value to the debate. He may want to speak to the other side about some of those discussions to get a sense of whether the joyous relationship that he described was reciprocated. The fact is that if we want to achieve outcomes across the UK, whatever the political differences—they are significant, and he is right that they will become more significant in the few years ahead—we still need to be the grown-ups in the room and work to deliver them. My engagement has been very much around how we bring in the views of Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish colleagues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

I take that point. I will come back to the role of the UK Government in Great British Energy in a moment, as it is important. Of course I want to engage with Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish colleagues in this place, but I also want to find a way to engage constructively with the devolved Parliaments and Administrations, not just on the statement of priorities but far beyond that. We have already had conversations about how the board of Great British Energy might engage with the Scottish Government on a more regular basis. We are very open to those ideas, but—to come back to this point briefly—it is important that Great British Energy is funded and directed by the UK Government and therefore ultimately responsible to the UK Parliament.

[Andrew Bowie]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being incredibly generous with his time. Subsection (6) deals with Northern Ireland in the context of what we are discussing. Energy is a devolved competency within Northern Ireland, which works on an all-Ireland grid to deliver electricity on the island of Ireland. Is that the reason the language in that subsection is slightly different? It refers to consulting the Department for the Economy, as opposed to consulting Welsh Ministers and Scottish Ministers in the previous two subsections. How will GB Energy and the Department interact with our Northern Irish colleagues, given that GB Energy will be a body of the UK Government and paid for by UK taxpayers, but will have very little role in delivering energy in Northern Ireland?

[Michael Shanks]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that important point. Early on in the development of the Bill, we had a genuine conversation with the Northern Irish Executive about whether Northern Ireland should be included in the Bill at all, on the basis—exactly as he says—that energy is completely transferred in Northern Ireland. We agreed that it was better to keep Northern Ireland in scope so that some of the benefits may come to Northern Ireland, in particular around skills and supply chains, but clearly the relationship will be very different. We do not anticipate Great British Energy funding specific projects, for example, for the reasons that he outlined.

The broader point here is a reiteration of an earlier point: Great British Energy will not have special powers compared with any other company. It is therefore important to recognise that if Great British Energy is delivering projects in Scotland, it will have to conform to Scottish planning and all the other regulations and consenting regimes in Scotland exactly as any other company operating in Scotland would. It will not have additional powers to supersede any of the regulations set by the Scottish Parliament. That is important because, clearly, although the funding will come from the UK Government through Great British Energy, the delivery of those projects, if in Scotland, will largely be the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament through the environmental planning and consenting regimes. Great British Energy will not have additional powers to supersede any of those regulations.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

One way to increase clean electricity generation in the United Kingdom would be to invest at pace in new nuclear. We left government with a clear plan to get to 24 GW of nuclear power by 2050. Does that target remain?

[Michael Shanks]

This is the whole point about the Conservative Government, and it is why we have inherited such an economic mess: they made a series of announcements, with absolutely no funding to back them up. As you would expect, Mr Speaker, I pay close attention to the Conservative party conferences, and the hon. Gentleman made a very astute point, which I am happy to repeat for the benefit of Hansard and the House: “After 14 years of Conservative Government, we are now in a position where it’s more difficult to build critical infrastructure than it was when we came into power”. I could not have put it better myself.

[Andrew Bowie]

Our record on nuclear speaks for itself. We launched the small modular down-selection process and Great British Nuclear, and invested £200 million in new advanced nuclear fuels. We consulted on a new route to market for advanced modular reactors and new technologies, and granted a development consent order for Sizewell C. There is concern that there is a go-slow in the Government right now, so when can we expect a final investment decision on Sizewell C? Will it still be this year?

[Michael Shanks]

I was not aware when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State changed the titles of the ministerial portfolios that we had moved away from having a Minister for consultation, but it seems that all the hon. Gentleman was doing in his time in office was launching consultations. We are going to get on with delivering and we are moving at pace on the whole of the electricity system, including on nuclear, and delivering on the things that he failed to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Bowie and Michael Shanks

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Bowie]

I am pleased to give that assurance to my hon. Friend. As I have said, we are talking to Ofgem right now about introducing regulations to make this much fairer and simpler and to ensure that consumers on heat networks get the service that they deserve.

[Michael Shanks (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab)]

11. What discussions she has had with the Scottish Government on the Berwick Bank wind farm project.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Andrew Bowie)]

The planning decision is devolved to the Scottish Government. Officials will work together to resolve cross-border matters. The UK Government are committed to effective co-operation with the Scottish Government on this and other issues, supporting our shared energy security and net zero objectives.

[Michael Shanks]

I thank the Minister for his answer and for the promise that officials will work together, but he will be aware that this is a 4.1 GW renewables project that could be the largest offshore wind farm in the world, delivering over £8 billion to the UK economy. The only reason that it is not eligible for this year’s contract for difference auction is the Scottish Government’s failure to make a decision on consent for the project. Has the Minister or anyone in his Department spoken to Scottish Ministers about the impact of this decision on investment in our economy, and to ensure that the consenting for offshore wind process is sped up so that we do not miss out on the tens of billions of investment and the thousands of jobs that a project such as this would deliver?

[Andrew Bowie]

The UK Government work closely and collaboratively with the Scottish Government on a whole host of areas, especially energy security and net zero. However, this is a live planning issue, and whether it is in the jurisdiction of Westminster or Holyrood, we do not comment on live planning cases given their quasi-judicial status.