Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I think we can have very little confidence in that. Frankly, Russia and China set themselves against Arab opinion and world opinion when they set themselves against passing what would have been a strong and good UN resolution. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was absolutely right to push for that resolution.

What we now need—Britain will play a big part in this—is real engagement with the opposition groups both inside and outside Syria, bringing together the strongest possible international alliance through a contact group, so that we can co-ordinate our efforts with respect to getting rid of that dreadful regime. We should make sure, through the EU and other bodies, that we continue the sanctions and pressure.

The bloodshed in Syria is absolutely appalling. The Russians have to look at their consciences and realise what they have done, but the rest of the world will keep fighting as hard as we can to give the Syrian people a chance to choose their own future.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q14. Yesterday, I heard a health expert who is visiting the UK say that the NHS remains a beacon for care and effectiveness in the world, and that it needs to be improved and perfected, not changed. Will the Prime Minister accept that advice and abandon the health Bill?

[The Prime Minister]

What needs to be abandoned is Labour’s approach to the NHS in Wales.

[Alun Michael]

indicated dissent.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but I will tell him what Labour is doing in Wales. It has cut health spending in Wales by £400 million, which is a 6.5% cut; and 27% of people in Wales wait more than six weeks for diagnostic services, whereas the figure for England is just 1%. As I said earlier, one third of people wait more than 18 weeks for an operation in Wales. That is what we get from Labour: no money, no reform, no good health service.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury will be giving a statement on this matter immediately after Question Time. I am very pleased that a heads of agreement has been reached between the Government and trade unions under all four schemes, not only because it ensures the Government’s objective of putting public sector pensions on to a financially sustainable footing, but, much more importantly, because it means that millions of people working in the public services, whether in our schools, in our hospitals or in local government, will now be assured, at a time of great uncertainty, that they will have among the very best pensions in this country for years and years to come.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

T6. I want to ask the Deputy Prime Minister about his new year’s resolutions. The Leader of the House has reminded all Ministers of the following:“When Parliament is in session the most important announcements of Government policy should be made, in the first instance, to Parliament.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 73.]Given that, and given that the Deputy Prime Minister is one of the worst offenders, will he make it his new year’s resolution to behave himself in future?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I do not need a new year’s resolution to be reminded that it is important to behave oneself at all times.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The greatest need in our economy right now is to generate wealth, jobs and investment. What did Labour do at its conference? It just launched a big attack on British business, when that is what will help us out of these difficulties.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q9. Was the Prime Minister aware before today that his chief spokeswoman was a former colleague of Mr Adam Werritty?

[The Prime Minister]

As I have said, this whole issue is being looked at by the Cabinet Secretary, and he will produce his report. I would ask people to have a little patience—let the facts be established and the questions answered, and then we can move ahead.

Public Disorder

Alun Michael Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that that was in the manifesto, and it is indeed in the coalition agreement. The coalition agreement, where the two parties take a different view, makes allowance for that, and I remain a strong supporter of that proposal.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

As a member of the Home Affairs Committee, I am confident that our report will make a serious and significant contribution, but does not the Prime Minister accept that something more than that is needed? We need an in-depth, wide-ranging, full-time report, led by somebody with an authority and independence equivalent to that of Lord Scarman, and we need that quickly if the issues to which the Prime Minister has referred are to be fully explored.

[The Prime Minister]

Let me make a couple of points to the right hon. Gentleman, who I know served in the Home Office. First of all, sometimes the need for wider commissions of inquiry has come about because the House of Commons Select Committees could not get to the bottom of an issue; we are not even at that point yet. Secondly, these events are still continuing, so to start talking about what sort of inquiry there should be now is, I think, wrong. The third point that I would make is this: of course one should not jump to conclusions, but I think everyone is clear on the differences between what we have seen in the last three days and what we saw in 1981. This was not political protest, or a riot about protest or politics—it was common or garden thieving, robbing and looting, and we do not need an inquiry to tell us that.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Alun Michael Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The point I am trying to make is this. I had no responsibility for the BSkyB takeover. I specifically asked to be taken out of any of the decision making and any of the information because I did not want to put myself in any sort of compromising position. I was very clear about that. So much so that I did not even know when many of the key announcements were being made. That is why Rebekah Brooks was quite able to say, at the House of Commons yesterday, that there was not a single conversation that could not have taken place in front of the Select Committee. I know that many people were hoping for some great allegation yesterday that could add to their fevered conspiracy theories. I am just disappointed for them that they did not get one.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

As Police Minister, my experience of briefings from the police was that they did not give one any operational information, but they did tell one things that one needed to know. Senior police officers in the Metropolitan police would understand that perfectly. That is exactly what they were offering the Prime Minister. As a Minister, I would have been livid if officials had been keeping information from me. Did the Prime Minister want to be kept in the dark or is he angry with his chief of staff?

[The Prime Minister]

I set this out in great detail in the statement. Of course I have very regular meetings with senior leaders in the Metropolitan Police Service and am briefed particularly about terrorist operations for which the Prime Minister and Cobra have a particular responsibility. But the key issue about my chief of staff’s e-mail is that since reading it, Paul Stephenson, John Yates, the Cabinet Secretary and the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee have all said that that was the right judgment. Yates specifically says that the offer was quite rightly rejected.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That is one of the many questions that we are now considering in advance of making an announcement about the establishment of the commission to look into the West Lothian question, which we will do during the course of this year.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

T12. The Deputy Prime Minister has just said that he is in favour of the public having more people to vote for. Has he read the Hansard proceedings of last week’s debate in Westminster Hall, in which Conservative, Labour and Plaid Cymru MPs criticised the fact that the relationship between Wales and Westminster was being put at risk by the cut in representation from 40 MPs to 30? Only Liberal Democrats seem willing to defend that policy. Is he ready to repent, or has he given up on Wales?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

What I have not given up on is having a system of election that is fair. I do not think it is right or fair to have some Members of the House representing far, far fewer constituents than colleagues in other constituencies. The principle that all of us should represent roughly the same number of people seems to me a basic one.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

I assure the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) that the Government and the Law Officers’ Department are extremely concerned to ensure that the issues about which she has just addressed the House are properly catered for within the criminal justice system and by the Law Officers.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

3. What assessment he has made of the progress of the National Fraud Strategic Authority in reducing the level of fraud and online crime.

[The Attorney-General]

By working in partnership across the public and private sectors, the National Fraud Strategic Authority has contributed towards improving our understanding of the scale and nature of the fraud challenge, as well as making a significant contribution to improving our response to that challenge. It has produced the most comprehensive estimate yet of the annual cost of fraud to the United Kingdom at £30.5 billion, a significant part of which is against the public sector. It has launched Action Fraud, the national fraud reporting centre, which has provided advice and guidance to more than 100,000 people since April, many of whom have been victims of online crime. As part of the comprehensive spending review, the Government have provided ring-fenced funding for the NFSA to continue its work.

[Alun Michael]

I am grateful to the Attorney-General for that encouraging reply. Within the figures that he has mentioned, internet-related fraud ranges from very large institutional losses to large numbers of low-level attacks. Does he agree that it is important to keep up the pressure on both those fronts, so that ordinary people can be confident about being safe online?

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Alun Michael Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I strongly support our defence industrial base, which is one of our great industries and a great export earner for our country. We should support it. However, when we were looking at how to make this very difficult budgetary situation work, I checked the figures and found that between 2011 and 2015, we will be spending £17 billion with BAE Systems. We are an enormous customer for it. Just as it behoves us as a Government to spend responsibly and think of our industrial base, so it must ensure that we get value for money for the very many millions we spend.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I find it passing strange that the Prime Minister made no reference in his statement to the defence training academy at St Athan and then failed to answer a direct and simple question from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. Has the Prime Minister not been told that the academy is cost effective, delivers savings and will improve the quality of training for our armed services? He talks about professionalism and flexibility, so how does it make sense to axe it?

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Alun Michael Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

Again, I think that the hon. Gentleman is quite right. The Government propose to have the counting done and the results declared in tandem with the other elections taking place that day. We believe that that is administratively sensible and in no way affects the legitimacy of the results, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford has pointed out.

My final point in response to the hon. Member for Rhondda is that he was effectively inviting me to do the chief counting officer’s job for her. Of course there are rules laid down for the conduct of elections, but it is for her to judge whether the regional counting officers and others appointed to work for her are carrying out their responsibilities appropriately. It is not for me to micro-manage her judgment—her judgment is a matter for her. On that basis, I urge hon. Members to support the Government’s amendments and urge the hon. Member for Rhondda not to press amendment 353 to a Division.

Amendment 261 agreed to.

Amendment made: 262, page 14, line 28, leave out sub-paragraphs (3) to (5) and insert—

‘Assistance to counting officers etc

2A (1) A local authority whose area forms, or forms part of, a particular voting area must place the services of their officers at the disposal of—

(a) the counting officer for the voting area, and

(b) the Regional Counting Officer (if any) appointed for the region that includes the voting area,

for the purpose of assisting the officer in the discharge of his or her functions.

(2) In this paragraph “the local authority”—

(a) in the case of a voting area that is a district or county in England, or a London borough, means the council for that district, county or borough;

(b) in the case of the City of London voting area, means the Common Council of the City of London;

(c) in the case of the Isles of Scilly voting area, means the Council of the Isles of Scilly;

(d) in the case of a voting area in Wales, means the council of a county or county borough;

(e) in the case of a voting area in Scotland, means the council of a local government area.’.—(Mr Harper.)

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move amendment 328, page 15, line 35, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘must’.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to take the following: amendment 329, page 15, line 37, at end insert—

‘(aa) directions about the discharge of their functions specifically in relation to voters with disabilities;’.

Amendment 330, page 17, line 5, at end insert—

‘Disabled voters

7A (3) The Electoral Commission must take steps to ensure that disabled voters are able to access information and support to facilitate understanding and participation in voting and elections.

(4) The Electoral Commission must issue guidance in relation to ensuring voters with disabilities have equality of access to the places and process of voting.’.

Amendment 331, in schedule 2, page 26, line 31, at end insert—

‘3A Any notices must—

(a) be published in a minimum 12 point font size, and

(b) include a prominent message in minimum 16 point font highlighting the availablility of accessible formats.’.

Amendment 333, page 27, line 3, at end insert—

‘Access to voting for disabled people

5A Each ballot paper—

(a) must be produced in a range of formats accessible to people with disabilities;

(b) must contain a tactile voting template to ensure participation by a blind or partially sighted voter.’.

Amendment 334, page 27, line 26, at end insert—

‘(za) ensure such rooms selected for polling are accessible to persons with disabilities in accordance with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010,’.

Amendment 335, page 28, line 29, leave out from beginning to ‘about’ and insert ‘information’.

Amendment 336, page 28, line 32, at end insert—

‘(ba) a transcription into large or giant print;’.

Amendment 337, page 28, line 32, at end insert—

‘(ba) a transcription into electronic format;’.

Amendment 339, page 31, line 39, at end insert—

‘(za) information on assistance available at every polling station to ensure access for voters with disabilities;

(zb) clear instructions to all presiding officers and polling clerks on the right of all registered voters with disabilities to vote;

(zc) clear guidance to presiding officers about the information and support specific groups of disabled people require.’.

Amendment 340, page 31, line 45, at end insert—

‘(4A) For the purposes of paragraph (4)(zc) specific groups may include (although not exclusively)—

(a) people with mobility difficulties;

(b) people with a visual impairment such as blindness or partial sight;

(c) people with a learning disability;

(d) people with social or cognitive disorders such as autism or Asperger’s syndrome;

(e) people with mental health problems.’.

[Alun Michael]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this group of amendments. I am particularly pleased that it includes a number of amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), who will speak to them in this debate.

The amendments relate to the referendum process, but in the long term they ought to apply much more widely to electoral arrangements in general. After all, the ability and right to vote is the central element of citizenship. The extension of that right and of the franchise—the inclusion of people in the electorate—has been central to the UK’s development into a mature democracy over many years. However, if the individual voter is unable to exercise their right to vote because physical obstacles are placed in his or her way, or if he or she cannot make sense of the ballot paper, the right to vote is meaningless. That is what the amendments address. If an individual cannot understand the choices before them, they are denied their democratic right. At the centre of these proposals is the importance of the democratic rights of those affected.

I pay tribute to the work of the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which has done a terrific job over the years to help Government Departments to understand what it means to look after the interests of the blind or partially sighted, or those who have even slight difficulties with seeing, perhaps with the onset of old age. The organisation has done that work consistently over many years. Today’s debate goes further than that, because it has been stimulated not only by the RNIB’s comments and concerns, but those of Scope and Mencap. A range of citizens with a range of disabilities and obstacles in their way could be helped if the Committee accepts the amendments, and I urge all Members to support them.

To illustrate where things can be improved, RNIB did a number of presentations—a number of Members on both sides of the Committee attended them, including the Deputy Leader of the House. It highlighted the implications, for instance, of the obstructions to understanding television. Members were invited into Aunt Megan’s living room, which was set out in the Strangers Dining Room, to see what following a television programme is like for people who do not have full vision. Actually, the dining room was changed into a more attractive place in many ways—the fact that Megan is the name of one of my granddaughters is absolutely irrelevant. Nevertheless, that imaginative demonstration got across to us how the inability to see things can affect people. Indeed, I am tempted to suggest that in order to lend weight to the argument for these amendments, the RNIB’s next exercise should be to lay out in the Strangers Dining Room a polling booth, complete with frosted glass and the other things it has sometimes provided in order to enable us to understand the problems. If it were to do so, all Members could see the issues that arise when the ballot paper is not absolutely clear, and I am sure that that would lead to Members of all parties being not just supportive of the amendments, but enthusiastic for them.

Ballot papers are often more complex than necessary, usually because the i’s are being dotted and the t’s are being crossed and all sorts of possible challenges are being eliminated. Of course, that has a consequence for those who need to be able to see very precisely what they are doing. As I have said, these amendments refer to the referendum process, although I think they should apply more generally. However, the design of the referendum ballot forms will be different from that of the familiar election forms, which is why these amendments are so important on this occasion.

[Chris Bryant]

My right hon. Friend is making some very good points, and I hope I will be able to explain why I agree with him both on this topic and with some other amendments that address similar topics.

There is an issue to do with ensuring that the information carried on polling cards is presented in a way that makes sense to, and is user-friendly for, all disabled voters. I am concerned that that will be more difficult when we have a combination of polls, because it will be necessary either to provide two polling cards, which may lead to considerable confusion for some people with disabilities, or for the writing on the polling card to be made so small that it is far more difficult for people to use. Does my right hon. Friend share that concern?

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is precisely the sort of issue that I believe should be covered by instructions, as we must also ensure that the simplicity of the form does not provide an unintentional additional obstacle. He is therefore right to raise that concern, and his point underlines the importance of my amendments. These amendments would allow direction to be given to deal with that concern by, for instance, ensuring that there is a simple form that enables people to understand what they are being advised to do in the polling booth.

I have tried to think of any reason Ministers and their advisers might have for not accepting the amendments. I hope I do not need to anticipate that, as I hope the Minister will respond by saying that the amendments are so clear and straightforward, and the case for them has been so well argued by myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, that he is totally convinced and accepts them all. Having listened to his response to the debate on the previous group of amendments however, it seems that he might say the amendments should not be necessary because our expectations—in his case from Government, in our case from Parliament—are clear in the phrasing of the Bill. For instance, paragraph 3(1) of schedule 1 states:

“The Chief Counting Officer, Regional Counting Officers and counting officers must do whatever things are necessary for conducting the referendum in the manner provided by this Part.”

I do not think that is good enough, however. I have had enough experience of ministerial office to have seen how such very clear intentions written into a piece of legislation can be strangled by those who implement the law in the subsequent rules and interpretations unless we are very clear about our expectations, and I believe that our disabled and partially sighted citizens deserve us to be absolutely clear and unequivocal in respect of these amendments.

Paragraph 7 of the schedule states:

“The Electoral Commission must take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness about the referendum and how to vote in it.”

Well, yes, but that is not always the way things are delivered and the Electoral Commission is not very good at using its powers to ensure consistency in electoral arrangements. So these amendments are necessary, as we must ensure that appropriate arrangements are in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

I welcome the principles behind the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger). It is very important that everyone has an equal opportunity to cast their vote in the referendum, and I am glad that the amendments raise that important issue.

I want to reassure the Committee that there are significant provisions made throughout the Bill—indeed, later this afternoon we will consider some Government amendments that will give the Electoral Commission further powers to ensure that the forms used are accessible—to ensure that voting is fair for all, including disabled people. Ensuring that ballot papers and polling stations are accessible to all is already a duty that counting officers and returning officers have. For the purposes of the referendum the chief counting officer will also be able to give directions to counting officers on how they discharge those functions.

[Alun Michael]

Will the Minister comment on the central point of the change from “may” to “must”?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Michael]

I am grateful to the Minister, who has been extremely courteous this afternoon. His speech was clearly well intentioned, but it was very old fashioned and traditional. It is the traditional approach from his Department—if we can refer to a fairly new Department as traditional—that the Minister should accept the principle and resist the amendment with every fibre of his body.

I regret that the Minister has taken that approach this afternoon. I am pleased, of course, to hear his endorsement of the principles underlying the amendments, so we can be agreed across the Chamber about the intentions and what we want to happen in the election. I take some comfort from that, but officials always tell the Minister to resist. The job of a Minister is to listen to that advice—yes, of course he should listen to the advice of the officials—but also to listen to the debate.

The Minister said that the amendment would not add to the duties or the clarity for the electoral officials or the Electoral Commission, but I do not accept that. It would make it clear that the House expects such consideration for those who would otherwise potentially be denied the right to vote. As ever, the problem is not the intentions of the Electoral Commission. I have met its members on many occasions and their intentions are good, but the delivery has not been as good. The House has a responsibility to make clear our expectations in respect of access for disabled people. I referred specifically to people with sight difficulties and the importance of helping them.

I cannot see how the amendments tabled by me and by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) could make the arrangements more complex or more difficult. The amendments are clear, but if there is any difficulty in that regard, and if the Minister wishes to improve the drafting in any way, he can easily do that on Report. I invite him to join us in the Lobby this afternoon, and if there are any such deficiencies, to put them right on Report. I shall be delighted to help and support him in doing that, should it be necessary, but let us make progress today.

I would very much like to pursue amendment 328, but as I do not want to take up too much of the time of the Committee, I shall press amendment 329 to a Division. Although I am disappointed by the Minister’s response, I welcome the fact that he has at least endorsed the principles that we advanced in this short debate.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: 168, page 15, line 37, at end insert—

‘( ) directions requiring them to take specified steps in preparation for the referendum;’.—(Mr Harper.)

Amendment proposed: 329, page 15, line 37, at end insert—

‘(aa) directions about the discharge of their functions specifically in relation to voters with disabilities;’.—(Alun Michael.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Michael Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving me advance notice of his specific constituency interest. I have liaised with the Department for Education, which is very clear that the voluntary sector has an important role in ensuring that all 16 to 18-year-olds can access learning opportunities that best suit them. However, the Department pointed out that it is for colleges to decide what their learning offer should be. On a more constructive note, if Rumbles believes it has a learning offer that will fill a gap in the 16-to-18 learning market, it should discuss it with the local authority and seek to become a 16-to-18 provider in its own right.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the compact between the Government and the voluntary sector.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)]

The right hon. Gentleman has a long-standing interest in this area. The Government are fully committed to the compact, as the Prime Minister stated when he launched the big society programme at No. 10 on 18 May. That is why my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has written to Ministers with responsibility for the big society agenda to ask them to consider the compact as decisions on in-year budgetary savings and efficiencies are taken.

[Alun Michael]

I welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities, and I am sure that we will look at the detail of this matter in the coming months. Departments and Government agencies are large and powerful, whereas voluntary organisations are generally small and innovative. Does he therefore agree that supporting the compact process is an important responsibility of Ministers across Departments, as is ensuring fairness in how Departments deal with the voluntary sector organisations that are vital to their work?

[Mr Hurd]

I totally understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point. That is why we have set up a group of Ministers with responsibility for the big society agenda. The first meeting of those Ministers will be chaired by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General next week. The compact and our plans to strengthen the transparency and accountability of its implementation will be on the agenda.