Health and Care Bill

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. If he will let me make a little more progress, I think he will find that my amendments seek to put a harsher perspective of this on the online platforms, rather than letting anyone off anything whatsoever. I repeat that my fundamental position is one of opposition to the nanny state and restrictions, but recognising that if the Government are going to push these restrictions forward, we have to have fairness and parity across broadcast and online sectors, otherwise there will be loopholes, things will fall through the cracks and the Government will not achieve their objectives.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I certainly support the argument that my hon. Friend is putting forward. Does he feel that the Government have found themselves in a position where they feel they need to react because of the genuine obesity crisis among young people and this would seem to be the highest-profile publicity effort, but that really we should be focusing on the evidence of the case and the argument, so that we can actually have an impact on it, rather than steal the headline that might just last a couple of days?

[Greg Smith]

My right hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head: if we are to tackle obesity as a country, we have to look at the most successful outcomes. Fundamentally, I believe those to be ones of education, ensuring that parents are empowered to be able to make the best decisions for their children and ensuring that people are empowered to come to the right choices for themselves. The point about these amendments is to ensure that we are not giving a green light to one side while harshly penalising another for hosting these adverts.

The nub of the point is that the broadcasters will, in effect, have to pre-clear any advertising that is put on to their platform and there will be very harsh penalties, leading right up to the point of revocation of their broadcast licence, if they fail to do this. By contrast, although the Bill puts significant restrictions on the online platforms, they are not put through that same test. They are not put through the same harsh restrictions and requirements that are broadcasters are. This is especially important when we consider recent evidence that has been put into the public domain. The Advertising Standards Authority recently drew considerable attention to the mass flouting of the rules by online influencers across many sectors. This House’s Select Committee on Work and Pensions made an important point about online regulation in a report in March this year on protecting pension savers. It said:

“Regulators appear powerless to hold online firms to account”—

for online advertisements—

“in the same way they would be able to for traditional media.”

We need to bear that in mind as we consider this Bill, because if current regulations do not work in that field, I fear that the regulations on online providers proposed in this Bill will not either.

I offer these amendments as a call to those on the Treasury Bench, including the Minister for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar)—an excellent Minister who will consider these points carefully—to rethink the practicalities of what we are saying to the broadcast and online sectors. If the Government are intent on pushing this forward, I ask them to find that parity that ensures that broadcasters are not unfairly penalised. Great British broadcasters—ITV, Channel 4, Channel Five, Sky—already produce some incredible educational programming about diet, cooking, wellbeing and lifestyle. It would be horrendous for us to cut off their lifeline of funding.

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[Alun Cairns]

I have listened carefully to the hon. Member’s comments about waiting times in England and the measures that are to be introduced here. He urged disquiet; can I assume that his disquiet is even louder when he considers my constituents in Wales who have much longer waiting times?

[Alex Norris]

There is a danger that the right hon. Gentleman has missed the point. The reality is that for a decade there has been historically low investment in our health service, which of course has Barnett consequentials for Wales. That is the reality and why the system is as distressed as it is. I do not think he can put that at the door of the Welsh Government.

Let me come back to public health. Over the past five years we have removed £1 billion in public health funding, which means that the challenges in respect of childhood obesity, smoking, sexual health and access to drug and alcohol services are all developing and growing. The sad thing is that such cuts make an immediate local government saving for the Treasury but create greater costs for the public purse later, never mind the impact on people’s lives. They are the falsest of false economies. For all the talk of the end of austerity, last month’s Budget did nothing to tackle that reality. Indeed, local authorities are under greater pressure and the cycle will continue.

Being smoke-free by 2030 is a major national prize, and with that I turn to new clauses 2 to 11, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy). She made an excellent case and has shown tremendous leadership on this issue, in concert with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), through the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health. They have given the Government a number of really good ways to improve our nation’s efforts and I hope we will hear from the Minister that they will be taken on.

Tackling smoking is a crucial part of not only improving the nation’s health but addressing health inequalities. A child born where I live, Nottingham, can expect to live seven years fewer than a child born here in Westminster. When it comes to healthy life expectancy, we can expect that difference to double. Tackling that inequality should be a core part of the business of this place. Nearly half that inequality is attributable to smoking—that is how pivotal this issue is.

Successive Governments have shown over the past 25 years that we can make inroads with public policy on smoking, but the benefits have been unevenly felt: the smoking rate among those in professional occupations is now down to just one in 10, so is well on track to meet the 2030 target, but incidence rates among those in manual or routine occupations remain a stubborn one in four, so we must now renew our efforts with that group of people who are, of course, disproportionately likely to use stop smoking services—the very services we have lost over the past decade. Of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, the pandemic has posed new challenges, with a new group of people who have started smoking but would not otherwise have done so.

We have been promised a new tobacco control plan by the end of this year, but that promise looks a little less secure by the day—I hope the Minister will tell me I am wrong. We could get on with impactful interventions right away. The labelling and information interventions set out in new clauses 2 to 4 have very strong evidence bases from other countries, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, and would be quick, easy to implement and impactful.

On new clause 4 in particular, we know that e-cigarettes and vaping are important quit aids, but we would not want them to be a gateway for children to smart smoking. We should be concerned about the 2021 YouGov research for ASH—Action on Smoking and Health—that suggests that more than 200,000 11 to 17-year-olds who had never smoked previously had tried vaping this year. As my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, we must make sure that that age group does not take smoking through that route and that products are not targeted at it.

New clause 5 would tackle the bizarre loophole, which colleagues sometimes struggle to believe is true, that would allow the egregious practice whereby e-cigarettes or similar kit could be given free to someone under 18, although they cannot be sold. That is an extraordinary part of the law and I know that the Minister agrees it is daft—he said that in Committee, but also that he did not feel there was quite the evidence that it was a risk. Well, risk or not, I think the loophole should be closed, because I suspect that eventually someone will happen on it as a bright idea.

New clauses 8 and 10 are a beautiful support to any Minister who wants to improve smoking outcomes in this country, as I know this Minister does, but is conscious about the finances. This gives the Minister a chance, through a US-style polluter pays model, to fund all these interventions, including the restoration of the lost smoking cessation services in this country. He did not close the door to that in Committee when we talked about it, so I hope that he might tell us today that it is likely to form part of the new tobacco control plan. New clause 11 promotes a consultation on raising the age of sale, as we know that the older a person gets, the less likely they are to start smoking.

Let me turn to new clauses 15 to 17 and amendments 11 to 14 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden). Colleagues will have been profoundly moved to hear him speak of his battle with alcoholism, and I know that his bravery has connected with people across the country. I associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham regarding his entirely understandable absence from the Chamber today. With him in mind, I speak in support of those new clauses and amendments.

New clause 15 seeks to improve alcohol product labelling. This is overdue and it is popular. It is about not taking alcohol products out of people’s hands, but instead making sure that they can make an informed choice.

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[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. It has been a while since he intervened while I was at the Dispatch Box, so this has been a pleasure. I have never seen him as in any way a puritan; I suspect that he is rather more a cavalier in his approach to life.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire has also tabled amendments to schedule 16 which would insert in the Bill an exemption from the advertising restrictions for brand advertising. I am grateful to him, but I can reassure him that the Bill already delivers that exemption, and I therefore believe that his amendments are not necessary to achieve the effect that he seeks. We made that clear in the consultation response published in June this year, and in speeches made in Committee.

My hon. Friend has also tabled new clause 14. As I am sure he and other Members are aware, the Government consulted on different approaches for restricting online advertising in 2019, and considered alternatives submitted through the consultation process. However, it was felt that the alternatives, including the proposal from the Committee of Advertising Practice to use a self-regulatory mechanism based on targeting, were sufficiently similar to the policy options previously consulted on. These were not sufficient to meet the objective of the policy, namely to protect children from advertisements for less-healthy food and drink.

[Alun Cairns]

Does the Minister accept that there is a significant inconsistency between the approach to television broadcasters and the approach to those who use social media and online provision, and that a consistent approach would help? Does he also accept that a considerable array of views has been expressed by those seeking to help him to develop the Bill in a positive way, and will he maintain an open mind as it passes through the other place to establish whether it can be refined to achieve some of these objectives?

[Edward Argar]

I hope I can reassure my right hon. Friend, and other Members, that I always seek to maintain an open mind, and always seek to reflect carefully on the contributions made by Members. I will turn shortly to the challenges posed by television, which is essentially a linear broadcasting medium, in comparison with those posed by online broadcasting. I am conscious that I must conclude my speech before 7 pm.

There is evidence to suggest that the targeting of online adverts does not account for the use of shared devices and profiles between parents and children, the communal viewing of content or false reporting of children’s ages. This, combined with concerns about the accuracy of interest-based targeting and other behavioural data as a way of guessing a user’s age and a lack of transparency and reporting data online, shows why the Government believe that we need to introduce strong advertising restrictions online. Any alternative proposals would therefore need to meet a high bar in terms of protecting children online, and we consider alternatives that rely on a targeting approach to be—currently—potentially insufficient to meet the policy objectives.

Amendments 106 to 109 are relevant to the point that my right hon. Friend has just made. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) for raising these matters. His amendments mean that liability for online advertisements found to be in breach of the restrictions included in the Bill would shift to become the responsibility of the platforms rather than the advertisers, which some may see as providing parity with the enforcement mechanisms for broadcast television.

During the 2020 consultation, we considered whether other actors in the online advertising sphere should have responsibility for breaches, alongside those of advertisers. However, we concluded that this was not the right place to consider that broader issue.

The online advertising ecosystem is complex and dynamic. The scale and speed of advertising online, as well as the personalised nature of advertising and the lack of transparency in this system, makes it difficult for platforms to have control over what is placed on them. The approach that we are taking in the Bill best aligns with the current enforcement frameworks across TV, online and on-demand programme services advertising, and is familiar to industry. It will ensure that there is limited confusion for broadcasters, platforms or advertisers, as the liable parties for less-healthy food and drink product advertising breaches will be the same as those for any other advertising breaches. The Government intend to consider this issue as part of the wider online advertising programme, on which the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will consult in the coming months.

Health and Care Bill

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 30th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady not only for her comments just now, but for her work on this agenda and on HSSIB over many years on various incarnations of this legislation. She has a right to gently tweak my tail that I could have listened to her in Committee and got here faster, but as she will know, occasionally it takes a little time in Government to be able to move to the compromise that often we all seek.

Turning back to the advertising restrictions, the overall policy direction has been set out effectively through last year’s Government consultation response, this proposed legislation and the debate that has taken place in both Houses.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Edward Argar]

If I may just finish this point. I suspect my right hon. Friend may speak later on the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith).

A consultation on secondary legislation will be launched shortly and consultations on the wider guidance to the restrictions, which will support industry and provide further clarity on what to expect, are anticipated later in the year. Therefore, we do not believe there is a need to incorporate a requirement in primary legislation to specify a gap between the date of publication of guidance and implementation of the restrictions, as proposed by my hon. Friend, but I look forward to hearing his speech later. I reassure him that the Government will of course continue to work closely with industry and with him to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and he pre-empts some of my comments. Does he recognise the significance of the change to the broadcasting and advertising industries? It seems to me that the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) is very reasonable in giving 12 months minimum for the industry to prepare for such significant changes.

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I know him well but I was not sure if would be able to predict exactly what he was going to say, so I am pleased that I have managed, to a degree, to pre-empt him. I recognise the impact, and that is why we believe we have struck the appropriate balance, both in terms of the time for preparation and implementation, but I will of course listen to what my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham says when he speaks to his amendments.

Finally, amendment 79 relates to the international healthcare arrangements clause, which amends the Healthcare (European Economic Area and Switzerland Arrangements) Act 2019 to enable the Government to implement comprehensive reciprocal healthcare agreements with countries outside the EEA and Switzerland. The clause will give the devolved Governments a power to make regulations giving effect to such agreements in devolved areas of competence. This minor and technical amendment to the definition of devolved competence and the consent requirement in new section 2B(2) reflects the fact that the consent of the Secretary of State under section 8 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is given in relation to an Assembly Bill, rather than an Assembly Act. It has no impact on the policy intention of the clause and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will be content to pass the amendment.

On Report in the other place, the Government committed to accept in principle Lords amendment 95 to change the process for regulations that give effect to healthcare agreements, so they are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. While we continue to support the intention of the amendment, I move that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 95 and moves an amendment in lieu, Government amendment (a). This amendment achieves the same objectives, but amends the international healthcare agreements clause rather than the regulations clause for the Bill to ensure that all regulations made under the soon-to-be-named healthcare international arrangements legislation are subject to the affirmative procedure. This includes any regulations made by the devolved Governments and achieves the objectives of the Lords amendment. This conclusion has been reached following constructive engagement with noble Lords for which the Government are extremely grateful.

In addition, to make parliamentary scrutiny of our healthcare agreements even more robust, we will set out a forward look in annual reports produced under section 6 of the 2019 Act, highlighting any agreements with other countries that are under consideration. We will publish all non-legally binding agreements and their associated impact assessments. I urge the House to accept all those Lords amendments as beneficial to the public and the NHS.

Although I have sought to compromise and reach agreement on many areas, I am afraid that there are a number of Lords amendments that we urge the House to reject. First, let me deal with Lords amendments 85 to 88. I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), the chair of the all-party group on smoking and health, for its proposals to help the Government to achieve a smoke-free country by 2030. However, the Government cannot accept these Lords amendments, because the proposals would be very complex to implement, take several years to materialise and risk directing a lot of Government resource into something that we do not see as a sustainable or workable way to fund public health. This would also rightly be a matter for Her Majesty’s Treasury.

The Javed Khan review is under way and I encourage colleagues to wait patiently for that and to be guided by what emerges from it.

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[Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)]

I will be as quick as I can, Mr Deputy Speaker. The point underlying my amendments to Lords amendments 123 to 127 is relatively straightforward and simple. I heard what the Minister said in his opening remarks, but I feel that if we act in a way that impacts an industry—in this case, UK broadcasters—as severely as the advertising restrictions will, and we are talking about a £200 million a year loss to our great British broadcasters, it is a matter of fairness and equity that we should give them enough of a lead-in time, enough notice and enough ability to adapt, remodel their services and find a way of surviving, to put it bluntly.

I have spoken before in the House about the fact that I do not agree with the nanny state and telling advertisers what they can and cannot advertise. The Lords amendments that we are considering, and my amendments to them, are very much about the implementation of a policy, and about giving British broadcasters—public service and fully commercial ones alike—a fighting chance. It would be much fairer to give broadcasters at least a year to comply from the point at which Ofcom publishes its guidance and puts it in the public domain. Broadcasters and advertisers will have to go through a lot of processes once this Bill receives Royal Assent, and that cuts the time that they have to put in place new policies, compliance checks and mechanisms to comply with the legislation. Two months on from Royal Assent, Ofcom will not even have got its statutory powers in this regard, and so will not even be able to start work with the Advertising Standards Authority and other bodies on the detail, and the ways and means of implementation.

[Alun Cairns]

I strongly support the amendments that my hon. Friend has tabled. Does he agree that the definition of some of the products, and the work that needs to be done, needs to undergo significant consultation, because of the way in which the efficacy, strength and merits of the policy will be judged?

[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that point, as the argument that I am making is very much that these things take time. Two months on from Royal Assent, Ofcom gets its statutory powers. Only then can it start the consultation, and the work of defining the restrictions on advertising that come under the broad categories in the Bill. Let us assume that two months on from Royal Assent is some time in the next couple of months. There would then be 10-week or perhaps three-month consultations to get the detail right, for a go-live date of 1 January 2023. That does not give our broadcasters sufficient time to put in place their processes, remodel their whole service, and find a way of working when they are so many hundreds of millions of pounds down on their operating models.