UK Victims of IRA Attacks: Gaddafi-supplied Semtex and Weapons

Debate between Alistair Burt and Jim Fitzpatrick

Thursday 14th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Alistair Burt]

Perhaps I can come on to the United States situation a bit later. Distinctions between types of victims are difficult, and I will come on to that a little later on. First, let me put something on the record in relation to our current policy. I recognise the force of today’s debate, of the conversations that the Foreign Secretary has had in my presence, and of the discussions that I have had as well. This is a difficult area of policy, and it may not be finally settled.

I would like to take the opportunity once again to express on behalf of the Government sincere condolences to all those who have suffered as a result of the horrific attacks carried out by the IRA, and to all victims of the troubles. The Government want a just solution for all victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism, and we will continue to do all we can to make progress on that important but difficult agenda. The Government have raised the plight of victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism with the Libyan authorities at the highest level. The Foreign Secretary raised their cases with Prime Minister Sarraj during both of his visits to Tripoli, most recently in August this year. I intend to follow up on those conversations when I next travel to Libya.

Between 2010 and 2013, when I travelled to Libya I always raised the issue of compensation because it was a live issue back then. I raised it with either the then Attorney General or the then Solicitor General in Scotland—I cannot remember which—whom I got to know in relation to this matter. It was always on the agenda in the period of time after the fall of Gaddafi. The Libyan Government were obviously in a state of flux at that time, which of course has continued, hampering all our efforts, but it was important to put the claims on the record right the way through, and I sought to do so.

The Foreign Secretary and I welcomed our constructive recent discussions with parliamentarians, and I have recently met with victims groups to discuss their thoughts and concerns face to face. I very much hope that we can continue to engage openly and frankly, and I am sure that we will. That will give us the best possible chance of securing justice for the victims of these terrible attacks.

Clearly, the Libyan Government have a responsibility to deal with the legacy at the heart of the Gaddafi regime, as part of a broader process of national and international reconciliation and justice. The UK Government continue to impress upon the Libyan authorities the impact of Gaddafi’s support for the IRA, and we emphasise the importance we attach to responding to victims’ campaigns. We continue to judge, however, that engaging constructively with the Libyan Government remains the best way to make progress. As our response to the Select Committee report demonstrated, we maintain the long-standing policy of previous UK Governments not to espouse victims’ claims.

Hon. Members who took part in the recent meeting with the Foreign Secretary will be aware that that issue was discussed in some depth. They will also be aware that the Foreign Secretary committed the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to being more visible in efforts to support the victims’ campaigns and to ensuring that the issue remains a priority in our discussions with the Libyan Government. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) spoke about how that more visible attitude might be demonstrated. I am going back to Libya, for the first time in some years, early in the new year. We are actively seeking to explore the possibility of a meeting between the Libyan Minister of Justice and victims groups; we have recently written to the Minister about that. The meeting might take place in Libya, but that could be difficult, so it could be held in Tunisia or some other place. We are actively pursuing that idea as a way of doing something new and adding something new to the situation.

Questions were raised about whether we have abandoned the idea of a fund to compensate individual victims. We have carefully considered that option, but continue to believe that individual claims are best negotiated directly between victims and the Libyan authorities. We will continue to support victims to help to facilitate that, and we will raise their cases with the Libyan authorities at every opportunity. Even if the Libyans were at some point in the future to put aside money for the purposes of compensating UK victims, we believe that administering such a fund would be extremely difficult. There is currently no clear definition of a victim of IRA terrorism sponsored by Gaddafi as opposed to a victim of terrorism more generally.

Hon. Members who were present at the recent meeting with the Foreign Secretary will be aware that that issue was discussed at length. My impression is that at the end of the meeting we believed that, given the difficulties of drawing distinctions between different types of victims, the best kind of support would be a communal fund, focusing on community support, rehabilitation and reconciliation, that was available to all victims. It would not be confined to Northern Ireland, to respond to the concerns of the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse. It has not been drawn up in any way yet, but it would attempt to recognise the difficulty of separating one victim of the troubles from another, and to bring people together. Giving specific help to specific people who have been damaged, as the hon. Member for Strangford clearly described, would be an important part of it, so he would be providing something for his constituents, but in a communal fund that would be accessible to more people, rather than just through individual compensation.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

Just to clarify, the Minister referred to the possibility of victims meeting the Libyan Minister of Justice directly, perhaps in Tunisia because Libya could be difficult. Some of us have concerns about putting victims in front of a high-level politician and diplomat, given the imbalance in terms of strength. However, I understand that the emotiveness of it might create a breakthrough. I just raise the concern about exposing the victims in that way.

The second point—sorry, Mr Gapes; I will be very brief—is about identifying the entitlement for individual victims and having community assets. Other countries seem to have done it, and I do not understand why we cannot. I totally support colleagues from Northern Ireland who are asking for a centre or an institution for trauma, mental health, mental welfare and so on, because that would be useful for them. It would not serve a purpose for the people in Tower Hamlets who were direct victims, and that is where there is a distinction between the two.

[Alistair Burt]

Let me respond as best I can to those two comments. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the meeting, but my sense is that there would be sufficient victims and victims’ representatives who would be prepared to take part in such a meeting. It would not be an unmoderated meeting and, of course, I would expect us to be there in some form, whether through embassy officials locally or senior officers from here; in those circumstances, there would probably also be a Minister. I do not think it would be appropriate to ask a Minister from another state, unconnected with all this, to deal with the issue without one of our Ministers being prepared to support those who had come from the United Kingdom. I am sure that we could handle that, but I accept his point that for some people such a meeting would be too difficult and not possible.

In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s other point, there is no suggestion that because the fund has not yet been created or put together, it would be confined to one place rather than another. If the point is to find something that will benefit victims wherever they have been, it must of course apply to mainland UK as well as Northern Ireland. I do not think that those in other countries have had to make an individual distinction between a victim of Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism and a victim of a terrorist atrocity from another source. That is something that we find difficult and, as we have discussed, we all understand those difficulties.

[Alistair Burt]

I understand the hon. Gentleman completely. It is not difficult to make a distinction based on cause of death, but is he saying that there would be a different system of compensation, and that someone who lost their life in circumstances identifiably traced to Gaddafi would have access to one fund, but those who died in other circumstances would not? That is what successive Governments have found difficult, because the impact of the loss of life due to a terrorist incident is the same, whatever the cause was. It would be difficult to have a fund that distinguished victims and gave some victims and their families access to something that others are denied.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

It is patently unfair that some victims may not get compensation and others would. The distinction we are drawing, in the absence of a UK fund to compensate victims of terrorism per se, is that the Libyans have paid other Governments in other countries money to compensate their victims. Apparently, we have not been making the same efforts to get Libyan compensation for our victims. If we can get that for the victims who can be identified, let us get them compensation. The British Government ought to be looking after the other victims of terrorism, as I hope they do, from whichever source the terrorism outrage comes.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are continuing to pursue that process by working with the existing Libyan Government and the future Libyan Government to secure that support. That is why a meeting with the Libyan Minister for Justice has been suggested. That is why the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister raised this issue, and why I shall raise it.

Hon. Members and victims have understandably asked us to demonstrate even more effort to secure compensation than we have already put in. The ultimate aim is to ensure the Libyan Government is able to respond to the understandable request for compensation for the victims of Gaddafi. That is the position we want to reach. The UK Government, like all of us, are determined to make sure that happens. That is the process we are pursuing.

There are a couple of other things to say. I want to deal with the issue of frozen assets and sanctions. There is no lawful basis on which the UK could seize or change the ownership of any Libyan assets. The UN Security Council resolution under which those assets were frozen, which the UK supported, is clear that they should eventually be returned for the benefit of the Libyan people. To breach that resolution would be a violation of international law. We set that out in our response to the Committee, and that position has not changed.

A veto is an individual response that the United Kingdom could produce, but it would then be used to stop the return of assets. As the Government rightly said, we get no sense from other states that they would support that. Of course, they do not have to do anything—it is our veto—but they would not necessarily understand our vetoing a policy that is designed to return moneys to those who would then be in a position to compensate the United Kingdom and the victims the United Kingdom is pursuing that for. To apply a veto may not be the most appropriate thing. The point that the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse and others made is that it is a form of pressure on Libya, which must be correct. We must find other ways of putting pressure on the Libyans so that when they are in a position to respond, they understand that they need to make that response. Our contact with the Libyan Government makes it clear to us that they understand that need, but the money is not there at the moment because it is just not there. We must continue to pursue that.

On the sanctions, when the European sanctions rules are changed, we will have to see whether that provides an extra opportunity. I was interested by what the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said, and that will form part of a further discussion in the future. I noted what she said about pensions. As far as I am aware, that is something new, but we may come back to it in due course.

That is what we are doing in the immediate future, and as far as the future is concerned we will pursue a twin-track approach. We will continue to help victims engage directly with the Libyan Government, as appropriate, to help them pursue their campaign. That is the policy we have followed. As I said, I have previously informed victims that we are exploring the possibility of a meeting for them with the Libyan Minister of Justice. Our embassy in Tripoli has raised this with the Minister several times, and he has agreed in principle to the proposal. I recently wrote to him to welcome that, and to stress our desire to press ahead with arrangements. Such a meeting would demonstrate the Libyan Government’s genuine desire to address the legacy of the Gaddafi regime. In addition, we will explore with the Libyan authorities the possibility of establishing a communal fund for victims, although I should be honest with hon. Members that the current political and economic crisis in Libya means that progress on that is likely to be slow, as the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said.

There are complex questions at stake with regard to compensation, such as which groups of victims would be eligible, and what type of compensation and support would be right. We discussed that during the course of the debate. Discussions about what a fund would look like are still at an early stage, but we anticipate that it would focus on community support, rehabilitation and reconciliation, and as I said earlier would be accessible to all victims throughout the United Kingdom. I welcome the recent engagement of Democratic Unionist party colleagues on this issue, and I look forward to further constructive discussions in the future. We recognise victims’ frustration at the slow rate of progress. I fully appreciate that although that is an easy sentence for a Minister to say, it cannot in any way cover the pain and suffering that people have been through, but the political, economic and security realities in Libya are making progress on the issue extremely difficult.

The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and I have all made clear the Government’s support for change in Libya and for the UN process being led by Ghassan Salamé. We are actively engaged in that because the sooner the process can be successful and the sooner Libya has stabilisation and a new Government, the easier it will be to press such matters still further.

I repeat the Government’s sincere commitment to help the victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism make progress. I express my gratitude for the positive way in which colleagues from across the House have engaged with the Government on this issue and my sincere desire for that to continue. I recognise that the slow process is deeply frustrating to all those who represent the victims, as well as to those victims themselves, many of whom have campaigned tirelessly for many years to achieve justice. Today’s debate and the determination of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire and other hon. Members in the Chamber make an impression. Clearly, this is an issue on which the Government are committed, but the determination and the desire of the House is plainly that we have to do more, to be seen to do more and to explore further ways in which we can redress the balance.

I am grateful as always for the kindness with which colleagues treat me, and hope that I can play my part in resolving the issue. I take that to heart.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I have one last question for the Minister. As has been mentioned by the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, obviously there have been efforts in the other place to help move things along. Has the Minister had a chance to look at that, and will he comment? I am not asking him to compromise or undermine those efforts in any way, but they were mentioned by several colleagues and it would be useful if the Government had words on that aspect of the situation.

[Alistair Burt]

No. I am aware of the private Member’s Bill going through the Lords. I have no particular response. This is something at the moment—in relation to frozen assets—that we do not currently have being considered. But the Department is considering it very carefully, as will Ministers.

Let me conclude and again thank my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire for bringing the matter forward. I am fully aware that it is not one that will be dealt with in an afternoon and then go away. Victims and those who represent them have my commitment, and the Foreign Secretary made it clear at his recent meeting with colleagues how important this is to us. It is difficult to unblock but it is clear that we have an imperative from the House to do just that.

Hearing Loss: Action Plan and Commissioning Framework

Debate between Alistair Burt and Jim Fitzpatrick

Thursday 30th June 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Community and Social Care (Alistair Burt)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. Thank you for chairing this important debate.

Whatever else may be going on in this place at the moment, it is important that every now and again we return to what most people would regard as real life. As both Government and Opposition Members, we should give a strong sense of how we remain very engaged with matters that affect people every day. We will continue to do so.

I am grateful to my friend, the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), for bringing the subject before the House. It is some time since we played football together—too long—and we will have to find another way to do that. I have great fondness for the hon. Gentleman, who represents his constituents well, and who has always raised this cause in the best possible way, being informative as well as challenging when in opposition. I appreciate his work, and the work of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), in particular with the all-party group, which is so essential to keep Members informed about what is going on and what we need to be engaged with. I endorse the thanks to those who promote and support the all-party group and its work.

I welcome the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) to her role as the shadow Health Secretary. I thank her for her contribution today, and I look forward to hearing more from her. I appreciate the many burdens on her and her colleagues, so I appreciate her taking part in the debate.

The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse set out, broadly, the situation affecting the action plan and looked forward to the next stage, including the commissioning framework, which I will touch on. He spoke about the practicalities of life, paying tribute to those who put in the loop systems, and about how well technology has improved over the years—a sentiment I share. He made reference to a couple of specific topics that I will cover.

The hon. Member for Nottingham South did the same and spoke about the effects of deafness. Some years ago, as colleagues might be aware, I was Minister with responsibility for people with disabilities, and when she spoke about the importance of communication, I remember in particular a visit I made to Sense, the deaf-blind charity, at its premises in Peterborough, where I was introduced to a number of people. The importance and value of communication were brought home to me when I engaged with one particular gentleman, who understood what people were saying because he put his finger on their lips to follow the conversation. He could not see or hear, but his finger on their lips meant that he could follow the shape of the mouth. He then tapped out his reply on the back of his carer’s hand. Think how easily we communicate, at the drop of a hat, and see what someone was prepared to do because he was desperate to communicate. That reminds us of the absolute value of communication to human life and existence. I remember that example to this day, even 20 years on.

When the hon. Lady and other colleagues were talking about what being deaf means, how it affects life, how hearing and communication are a vital part of people’s existence, and about the absence of those and the difficulty that it brings, they brought home to me just how important the subject is. That is why I value the debate, and I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it and to the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse for securing it.

The shadow Secretary of State for Health also raised matters of rationing, financing and screening, so I will now cover those with my prepared remarks.

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate on NHS England’s action plan on hearing loss and the adult hearing service commissioning framework. The advent of the commissioning framework on 19 July will mark an important milestone. I share his sense that it is an important event. We hope that many people will come to the launch. It is only right, therefore, that we come together to discuss the opportunities and challenges that the publication presents.

As colleagues have mentioned, hearing loss is widespread. More than 10 million people in the UK are affected, and our rapidly ageing population means that that number is set to grow. As mentioned, projections show that by 2031 there will be more than 14.5 million people with hearing loss in the UK. Those demographics alone provide compelling evidence for why the UK needs to step up its response to hearing loss to enable further research, to take action on prevention and to enable people with hearing loss to access the services and support they need.

The Department of Health and NHS England’s action plan on hearing loss, published in March 2015, recognises the impact of deafness and hearing loss on individuals and society as a whole. Crucially, in my view, the plan accepts that hearing loss is not only a health issue, as we have been saying, but a cultural one. Tackling that societal challenge requires an integrated approach across the public, private and third sectors.

NHS England is therefore committed to delivering 20 outcome measures across five key areas, which have been touched on: prevention; early diagnosis; patient-centred, integrated management; ensuring that those diagnosed do not need unscheduled care or become isolated; and enabling inclusion and participation. That work will be spearheaded by a range of multidisciplinary groups with cross-sector representation.

The publication of the plan heralded an important new chapter in driving essential improvements, but we know that there are significant challenges for hearing services. Adults with hearing loss wait, on average, 10 years before they seek help—again, as colleagues have said—and, when they do visit their GP, 30% to 45% are not referred on for a hearing assessment. We know about significant unmet need and variation in services. For example, only about two fifths of people who need hearing aids have them. I have also heard some disquieting anecdotal accounts that some clinical commissioning groups have been taking difficult decisions and considering the rationing of hearing loss services.

Some of the news is helpful, such as the statistics on when referrals are made and things move forward. In 2013-14, 84% of people seen were seen within 16 days of referral; 92% were fitted with hearing aids within 20 days; 97% had their first follow-up within 70 days; and 800 different types of hearing aid were available from the NHS supply chain. So once someone is in the system, things are available, but we want to improve the provision of services.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alistair Burt]

I was about to come on to rationing, but I am happy to give way at this stage.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) mentioned—I think this was in my notes, and the Minister just repeated it—the numbers who are not referred on by GPs. I have not got to the bottom of why that is. GPs are not auditory specialists, so we would think that if someone comes to them and presents with audiological problems, the logical thing would be to send them to their local trust, who are the experts and have sound-proof booths, technicians and specialists, to identify and assess the nature of the problem. I have read that figure a couple of times. but I have not got to the bottom of why they are not being referred. I am not sure whether the Minister will have an answer, but I thought I would raise that point.

[Alistair Burt]

I must confess that I do not have an answer. He makes a perfectly fair point. Whether or not that is what people raise at the time they are in the surgery or whether they recognise it themselves or minimise it by saying, “I’m just getting old” or whatever, I do not know. I will make an inquiry and see what research we have at present. Family practitioner care and GP services are under constant review, and we have a number of different pilots and vanguards looking at the provision of primary care services.

I will see what emphasis is being given to this particular aspect. Certainly we recognise that the demographics indicate that all issues associated with getting older, which can include hearing loss, are rising up the scale and the agenda. I will make specific inquiry about whatever reasons we have at present in relation to this matter and write to each of the hon. Members present to give that information. I am very happy to do that.

Ilias Ali

Debate between Alistair Burt and Jim Fitzpatrick

Thursday 24th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I would be grateful if, in accordance with the trust that colleagues accorded me at the start of the debate, my hon. Friend left me to make a judgment when I am there dealing with the authorities. It is clear to me—not only from the comments of colleagues in this debate, but from the letters I have received from a number of Members of Parliament and the comments made by members of the Bangladeshi community in the United Kingdom—that there can be no doubt among the authorities there about the great concern aroused not only by this case in itself, but by its context, given other cases. That allows me, I think, to have a frank discussion with the authorities, as well as with representatives of all the political parties in Bangladesh, about the issues; but for now, perhaps I might be given the opportunity to make a judgment about more practical support when I am there.

Colleagues will know that, as has been mentioned, opposition parties responded to the disappearance of Mr Ali with a programme of public demonstrations and hartals, which are enforced general strikes. In associated violence, sadly, a number of people have died. Since then, some 33 members of the Bangladesh Nationalist party have been arrested for an alleged arson attack. There are accusations that the arrests were politically motivated. Colleagues who have studied the situation in Bangladesh over many years will recognise that a lot of personal and historical baggage drives that country’s political discourse. We will not speculate about the identities of the victims and perpetrators in this series of unfolding events. What I will say—I am reinforced in this by the comments that all colleagues have made—is that we regard this form of politics as a problem. It is in Bangladesh’s interests that its politics be practised primarily in Parliament, not in the streets.

Hon. Members have rightly raised broader concerns about human rights in Bangladesh. We welcome the Bangladesh Government’s assurances that they are committed to protecting human rights, and I recognise that progress has been made across a range of social development indicators. However, I note that reports, including from Bangladeshi human rights organisations, continue to suggest high levels of disappearances, abductions, extra-judicial killings and torture. The Foreign Secretary himself raised our concerns when he met the Bangladesh Foreign Minister on 16 April. Such issues are a standing item in our discussions with the Bangladesh Government.

Improving human rights, democracy and the rule of law are also integral parts of the United Kingdom’s development assistance programme in Bangladesh, which includes projects to support access to justice, to improve political participation, and to promote accountable and transparent government. To give one example, over the past five years we have supported the establishment of 20,000 community police forums, enabling access to more equal and fairer police services for 5 million people. UK support over the next three years should increase access to community-led legal services from 35% to 50%.

During my forthcoming visit to Bangladesh, I expect to meet the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, to see some excellent UK-funded projects and to meet young people with high aspirations. That is the positive side of our relationship with Bangladesh. I shall also take the opportunity of my visit to raise the difficult subjects that have formed the core of our debate today. I plan to use my visit better to understand Bangladesh and to discuss with the country’s political leaders what it would take to make sustained progress on human rights and ensure that the country is on a path to free, fair and participatory elections by early 2014.

We have a strong, broad and long-standing relationship with Bangladesh, which is important to both countries. We were the first European country to recognise Bangladesh, and, as colleagues have already mentioned, some 500,000 people of Bangladeshi heritage live in the United Kingdom. We are also the largest cumulative investor in Bangladesh. Given this close and multifaceted relationship, it is right that we should look at Bangladesh’s problems, a number of which have been highlighted in today’s debate, and conclude that it is all the more important that we engage.

Colleagues have mentioned the fact that Bangladesh is a young democracy and that its standards need to be high. I agree with both those statements. There is no doubt that democracy is struggling there because of the country’s historical baggage. It is therefore essential that we give our total support to those who are engaged in promoting democracy and working hard in the most difficult circumstances.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

The Minister announced that he is to visit Bangladesh soon. He might know that my wife, Dr Sheila Fitzpatrick, and I worked with Voluntary Service Overseas in Bangladesh. If he has an hour to spend with VSO when he is there, I am sure that he would be welcomed and shown the connections that VSO has made between London and Dhaka.

[Alistair Burt]

I hope I am not giving too much away by saying that, in the past, my legs have been treated by the hon. Gentleman’s wife—and very well treated they were, too. If she is doing VSO work there, that is a very good deal for Bangladesh. I have no idea how flexible my programme will be, or where she might be, but we can discuss that later. I will certainly get a message to Sheila, given the tremendous work that she does.

Let me conclude by saying a little about democracy in Bangladesh. It is essential that we do all we can to get the balance right. We do not want to be compromised, or compromising, in relation to high standards, but nor do we want too much pressure to be placed on those who are struggling and seeking to do the very best they can in the circumstances. To achieve a strong, stable, prosperous and democratic Bangladesh, it will need independent and accountable institutions and a functioning Parliament at the centre of political debate. We strongly encourage all parties to engage in constructive politics, for the good of the citizens of Bangladesh. The British Government have consistently stated that it is for Bangladesh to decide how to manage its national elections, but it is essential that they are free, fair and peaceful.

This House, and Parliament, have a role to play. When I visit countries abroad, I am always struck by how much this House is looked up to in so many parts of the world and by how much visits by colleagues are valued. The opportunity for parliamentarians to speak to parliamentarians, and for candidates to speak to candidates, about what is expected and what can be done matters much more than statements from Ministers and the like. I am sure that we will have a role to play in encouraging that democracy.

The importance of the incident that has been highlighted today cannot be overestimated. The British Government are making rigorous efforts to ensure that the best possible investigation is carried out, and we will continue to do so. We will press the authorities to reveal as much as they possibly can about what they are doing. We recognise that all parties have a role to play in this, and no fingers of blame can yet be pointed. I look forward to reporting back to colleagues in due course, after I have made my own visit.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish you the very best for this brief recess.

Question put and agreed to.