Water Bill

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Monday 25th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is right. I see this in household terms: my simple view is that if a builder wants to build 1,000 houses in the Test valley—I do not know why I am picking on the Test valley; I could pick on any number of catchments in the south or east of England—for that to be considered sustainable development, he should have to prove to his local authority that he is hardwiring into his thinking recycling rain water, greywater systems and permeable membranes outside the houses. In fact, he should think of everything to ensure that the development’s water demands are as low as possible.

An important change is being made that will assist investment in our water sector, by cracking the problem with the investment cycle that we have faced for years. I am grateful to British Water—the organisation that represents supply chain companies—for drawing my attention to how investment fell off a cliff edge a year or so before the end of a price review period. That is a problem. Britain is losing jobs, losing skills to abroad and losing much-needed infrastructure investment. Three changes will make a difference in that regard. The first is the resilience duty, which I have already mentioned. The second is the requirement on water companies to invest for the long term, particularly through the 20-year reviews of their water needs. The third is the need for a six-year investment programme, which is a major step forward. Over time, the cycle of investment will level out rather than fall off that cliff.

We need to think beyond the Bill on sustainability. I am pleased, for example, that improvements to the building regulations include a standard daily usage of 125 litres per head. The code for sustainable homes refers to 105 litres per head. We use 155 litres per head in this country—a figure higher than almost anywhere in Europe. We must consider the demand side as well as the supply side.

I hope that that clause on flood insurance goes through with the support of all parties. All Members with constituents who live at risk of floods feel strongly that the statement of principles, worthy though it might have been when it was drawn up, was full of faults. There was no affordability element. Our constituents face excess charges that are at times more than £10,000—an impossible situation that cannot be allowed to continue.

I have the scars of the negotiations on Flood Re on my back—I pay full tribute to the ABI for the constructive way in which it negotiated—but I think we have reached a point at which we can address the needs of the 500,000 households that are at the highest risk. It will limit the cost, and as best it can, it will link that limit to people’s ability to pay. Linking the scheme to council tax banding is the right way to do that. Excess charges will be capped at somewhere between £250 and £500. That is a major win for those people who come to see us in our surgeries and tell us that every time it rains their stress levels rise considerably.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I am listening with interest to the hon. Gentleman’s comments, given his experience. Does he have any concerns at all that linking the scheme to council tax banding, which is based on property values from back in the 1990s, could still be problematic for some households, as those figures are skewed?

[Richard Benyon]

I understand the hon. Lady’s point, which is justifiable, but if she is involved further in the machinations on the Bill, I urge her not to try to unpick that one. The scheme is not perfect, and she is right to have concerns. Band H has been cut out, so millionaires are not covered. Only bands A to G are included, and I think that this is probably the best way to do things. Obviously, it can be reviewed in the future.

The key question is how we make the transition from a system under which a subsidy supports the change to a much more risk-reflective form of insurance, which reflects betterment, such as when a household spends money from the scheme to improve resilience to flooding in the future. For example, sockets would no longer be placed at the skirting board but a metre above it. Other household measures could be reflected. We should encourage households to see the process as a transition under which they will be rewarded when they take responsibility. If they take measures to reduce the flood risk to their property, they will benefit.

Marine Management Organisation (Data Accuracy)

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I shall start by addressing the last point that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) raised—that a very serious allegation. To say that the work of my Department or a part of the DEFRA family has resulted in the failure of a business is one of the most serious accusations that she could possibly make, and it is one that I would refute. I would refute it because the industry is increasing its turnover, as I shall discuss in a moment. I regret that anybody should find themselves in the circumstances that the hon. Lady has described in talking about that business but, to use my words carefully, if such a serious allegation were made outside this House, I would have to seek advice on it.

I am not standing here trying to sound as though I am the voice of another organisation or spouting words that I have just been given. I have looked closely into this issue, and as the hon. Lady rightly said I have met her and her constituent. I do not know whether another individual has tied up more time and resources in my Department and the Marine Management Organisation than Ms Portmann, but I can assure the House that that is my impression from discussing this with officials. I recognise the hon. Lady’s commitment and dedication to the country’s fishing industry. She has been a good voice for her constituents on many of these issues. In turn, I am committed to preserving fishing opportunities for this generation and the next through the reform of the common fisheries policy, and to protecting the fish stocks in our seas.

This matter needs to be set in context. We are undergoing a quiet revolution in how we manage our seas, not only through the reform of the common fisheries policy. Part of the uplift in the numbers that the hon. Lady has described is due to the introduction of marine planning, which will have a dramatic effect on her constituency and on many of the businesses that function from it and off it, out at sea.

We are also changing and leading the way in which we deliver marine conservation in Europe. There is great cause for pride in that, but it has huge resource implications for my Department and the MMO. We have created new organisations to regulate and police our seas, not least the inshore fisheries and conservation authorities and, yes, the Marine Management Organisation. As the hon. Lady knows, the MMO was formed three years ago, and it is the principal marine fisheries enforcement body in England and acts as the UK authority to co-ordinate and control activities across all four fishing administrations.

I have seen at first hand and take a great interest in how the MMO works. It works with industry and other parts of the Government to achieve pragmatic fisheries management and management of the marine environment. The MMO, like any other regulator, relies on its ability to collate and analyse data so that it can make sound management decisions. It carries out statutory obligations for the UK, which include reporting data to the European Commission on quota uptake and fishing effort. This is a significant task. By working closely with UK fishing administrations, the MMO has dealt with data covering approximately 230,000 vessel landings a year. I say with great respect to the hon. Lady—it is sincere in this case, which it is not always when that line is delivered from this Dispatch Box—that she is receiving information on this issue from one source, whereas I receive it from a lot of other organisations, including businesses within this sector, and I get a very different story.

These landings range from small boats that go out for only a few hours a day to vessels that may be 20 times bigger and are at sea for weeks at a time. Last year, the MMO had to deal with significant challenges to the over-15-metre scallop fishery, one of the UK’s most valuable fishing assets, under the western waters regime. Scalloping is highly profitable for the UK fishing fleet and accounts for about 9% of the total tonnage and value of fish landed by the UK fleet. Much of this activity, as the hon. Lady is well aware, takes place in ICES—International Council for the Exploration of the Sea—area VII, an expanse of sea that extends westwards from the channel around the Irish sea and an area where effort is restricted under the western waters regime.

The profitable nature of this fishery has been increasingly attractive to vessels from all parts of the UK. However, for over-15-metre vessels, the UK has exceeded the limits on fishing effort—that is, days at sea—set under the western waters regime. Such overfishing risks effort penalties, which would be a severe blow to one of the most successful, productive and highest-earning fisheries found in our waters. As a result, a management regime for the area VII fishery has been agreed with the scallop industry and the four UK fisheries administrations who are working together to ensure that activity remains within our effort limits.

On my examination of this matter, I would say that DEFRA staff and MMO staff have worked really hard to keep this fishery open in recent years by helping to find swaps and in being successful in doing so. Yes, the hon. Lady is right that it required us to close the fishery for one period, but it has been a Herculean task to keep it open in the face of the effort limitations that this area has faced.

An industry advisory group has been established, involving catchers and processors of scallops from around the country. Those are key players in this problem. That provides industry with a lead role in taking responsibility for the management of the fishery. The MMO is an important source of information. It provides advice on levels of uptake in the fishery to inform management discussions.

At the same time as the management regime was being established, over-15-metre UK vessels were moving from paper-based reporting to the electronic logbook system, as the hon. Lady rightly stated. Vessel operators have needed to install new on-board equipment and to revise the way in which they record their fishing activity. All the fisheries administrations have had to make corresponding changes in their systems for handling data to deal with the new sources of information. That has been a major change for UK fishermen, given that the paper-based logbook has been largely unchanged for the past 30 years.

Generally fishermen still provide the same information, but the way in which they provide it has changed completely. In respect of data management for the western waters scallop fishery, the MMO has responded to the challenges by working closely with the scalloping sector and other administrations to develop new analytical systems for collected data.

[Alison Seabeck]

I appreciate that this is a complex issue and that change is always difficult, but does the Minister not share my view that in many respects the MMO has not helped itself by persistently insisting that everything must be done through a freedom of information request, or that we apply to the Information Commissioner? Will he please at least accept that when a member of the industry asks for information, it should not be treated as if it were top secret?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady is right. There are no state secrets here. There is no market-sensitive information, or at any rate very little. I think the hon. Lady would admit, however, that the plethora of FOI requests from her constituent has reached confetti proportions. When they are responded to—as they are—there is a follow-up, and another and another. If that information were vital to the results of information being passed to the European Commission, I would understand.

However, it is true that sometimes it has been found that the MMO has not given exactly the right detail. I am not complacent, and I want everyone in my Department to provide information of a high standard at all times, but let me suggest respectfully that the way in which information has been applied for has rather given the impression that the perfect is the enemy of the good.

The new data processes make use of a key benefit from the electronic logbooks, allowing near real-time monitoring of scalloping effort, and allowing each administration to monitor individual near real-time vessel activity as part of the enforcement of days-at-sea limits. Engagement with the industry has been a priority, and we have sought for it to take responsibility for the management of the fishery. Over the last 18 months, administrations have worked closely with the scallop industry consultation group. A management system has been agreed which sets quarterly days-at-sea limits for vessels affected by the regime. Industry compliance has been strong, and improved significantly throughout 2012 and into 2013.

The use of the monitoring system, supported by a close working relationship between MMO coastal staff and vessel operators, helped to produce circumstances in which no English vessels exceeded their days-at-sea limits for the first quarter of 2013. In 2012, that working relationship allowed the fishery to stay open throughout the year, and virtually all effort available to the UK was used. As I have said, that involved a Herculean effort on the part of a great many people.

Despite effort restrictions, the scalloping sector remains profitable. That is very important. Last year, sales of UK scallop landings reached almost £70 million, an increase from £64 million in 2011 and from £55 million in 2010. Furthermore, last year the over-15-metre fleet fishing in ICES area VII landed more than 27,000 tonnes, worth £29 million, which was a substantial increase on the 14,000 tonnes, worth £17 million, which were landed in 2008. We want this profitable industry to continue to be the success that those figures have proved it to be.

The MMO works collaboratively with the industry and the UK Administrations, setting days-at-sea limits and organising industry-sourced international effort swaps to provide additional effort to the industry. This collaborative approach has helped ensure that the UK scalloping sector has enough effort to remain economically active and profitable all year round. Generally, its efforts have been well received by the industry.

I am aware of the concerns raised by the scalloping sector about time lags and the frustrations these can cause, and the hon. Lady also rightly raised them. Data lags are caused by the need to validate data and conduct quality checks required under European legislation before data are reported to the Commission. The Commission acknowledges these time lags are an inherent part of the control systems that all member states are required to operate. They are caused by the nature and extent of the validation processes that need to take place. Logbook data need to be checked with satellite vehicle monitoring systems data and with other notes. That cannot be done overnight.

However, the House should note that these reports are not used to make management decisions, or to monitor the fishery. As of 2013 and the introduction of electronic logbooks, these decisions are based on real-time data systems that have been developed since the introduction of e-logbooks, which virtually eliminate the impact of data lag for management purposes. I hope that reassures the hon. Lady about the way this issue is moving.

I recognise the immense challenges faced by fishermen and those working in the fishing industry. The hon. Lady raised a point about the accuracy of corporate reporting. As I said earlier, the MMO is three years old. It continues to evolve, striving for better services and, driven by Ministers, to make sure it is as efficient as possible. Transparency and accountability are key to its decisions.

The MMO’s openness to feedback and willingness to address issues are admirable, although we clearly have a problem, and perceptions to all intents and purposes are reality, so I want to address the point she raised. I know that a query was raised against an annexe to the last annual report and accounts which presented an end-of-year status on whether targets were met or were not met. Following feedback, the MMO has recognised the potential for misinterpretation of the information. The MMO will provide a clarification in the next annual report, to be published this summer. In future, it will report with additional granularity against performance measures and key steps delivered during the year.

I can give the hon. Lady, and other Members, every assurance that I will work with them to make sure that concerns are addressed. I have asked DEFRA and MMO officials to pursue compliance through consultation and mutual co-operation.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I pay great tribute to that association, which does such great work. Last year, we achieved something very rare in this House. With all-party agreement, we secured the transfer of a Government body to a charity that has been well-funded for a considerable number of years, giving the opportunity for such organisations to benefit. The number of volunteer days around the country has rocketed as a result of the new charity.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

Following DEFRA press releases on the food adulteration issue, one of my constituents wrote to ask if she was the only one who had a problem with the fact that even 1% of products might not be what they claim to be on the label. As she pointed out, that means that of 5,000 products 50 will be adulterated, and that if those 50 are popular lines, millions of people are being duped. Will the Minister please do something about the self-satisfied tone of DEFRA press releases?

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. It shows when one prays in aid an organisation, one has to do so in the context of all the evidence that has been given by it to many organisations, not least a Select Committee of the House.

We want companies to be imaginative in the way they tackle affordability in their areas, not to force them into a straitjacket. Our guidance will not dictate eligibility criteria, the level of concession or the amount of cross-subsidy. It will give companies the freedom to make judgments, with their customers, on what can work in their areas. This addresses the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh). Social tariffs are a new tool in the tool-kit for companies, but they are not the only tool. Companies have many other effective tools—for example, win-win tariffs, which are self-funding from savings on bad debt and do not rely on cross-subsidies. They have trust funds, as has been mentioned, which are set up by the company to pay off the debts of those most in need, as well as payment plans and referrals to holistic debt agencies such as Citizens Advice, arrangements made locally that really work.

We must not see a social tariff as the only show in town. There are no state secrets here. The information from water companies about the social tariffs that they develop will be produced in negotiation with DEFRA, working on the guidance that we will publish in a few weeks. The proposals from the water companies and the decisions that DEFRA makes will be available for scrutiny.

[Alison Seabeck]

This is slightly tangential. The companies are working to tackle unaffordable water charges, but there is one thing that they probably cannot deal with, which was mentioned on Second Reading by one of the Minister’s colleagues and by me. Once the £50 payment comes through the system, which will help most people on low incomes, the companies will not be able to guarantee that it goes to the person who pays the bill. Instead of going to the vulnerable party, the money may be going to a park home owner who is not reputable, or a private landlord. What discussions has the Minister had, perhaps with the Ministry of Justice, about whether it would be a criminal offence—a fraud—if the park home owner did not pass the money on?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady could lead me down a long path of personal frustration on this subject, which I am happy to share with the Committee. I have a number of park homes in my constituency. Some are well run. It is a style of living that we across the House should encourage because it allows people at a certain age to release some capital and live in a smaller dwelling surrounded by people in similar circumstances, but there are too many park home owners who are appalling human beings. Various Governments, including this Government and the Government whom the hon. Lady supported, have sought to address this. I am working with my hon. Friends in the Department for Communities and Local Government to ensure that the alternative arrangements that the Government are making for park homes will be fit for purpose.

I thank the Committee for that bit of therapy. I can assure the hon. Lady that we intend the £50 to get to precisely the people whom she describes. I am happy to talk to anyone. In my Department we are keen to make sure that that money is not siphoned off by anybody and gets to the householder, even if that householder is a park home owner on a site owned by somebody else.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I will examine any suggestion that unpicks a system that has failed fishermen and the marine environment. I am putting all my energies into trying to get a meaningful reform that will enable the regional control of fisheries, taking this away from the micro-management by people who often sit about 1,000 miles away from the fishermen who are actually doing the work.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

It is more than 14 months since the Department sought guidance from the Commission on how to achieve an uplift in area VII—I spell that out for the benefit of Hansard—effort.

[Hon. Members: “Seven”] Well, it is seven, but it has to be written as “VII”. Can the Minister therefore let those with scallop interests know when he expects that guidance to come forth, and what he is doing to speed things up?

[Richard Benyon]

I do understand that this is an important matter for area VII and I will make sure that I write to the hon. Lady with full details about how we are taking this scalloping order forward.

Water Bills (South-West)

Debate between Alison Seabeck and Lord Benyon

Monday 14th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on securing this debate on an issue about which she has shown a clear commitment during her time in the House. The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) made the point that it has also been a very important issue for a great many former and current Members on both sides of the House. I know that the all-party group on water is well attended and is very passionate on this issue, and I certainly intend to address as many of the points the hon. Lady raised as possible in the few minutes available for my response.

The hon. Lady asked about White Papers. The new Government are very eager to introduce a White Paper on water, but we are determined to get it right. Our priority is to introduce a White Paper on the natural environment, which will involve a lot of issues that affect water—water will be fundamental to that White Paper—and then to introduce a White Paper on water, which will address many of the issues raised in the Cave and Walker reports. I can therefore assure the hon. Lady that this issue is a priority for the Government.

As I have said, I am aware that the hon. Lady and several other Members on both sides of the House have campaigned tirelessly on this issue for many years. I also understand that it is an issue that arises frequently in Adjournment debates, so I suppose I should not be too surprised that my first Adjournment debate as a new Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister is on this topic.

I would like to say at the outset that the Government recognise that water affordability is a problem for some households, particularly in the south-west. We recognised that in our coalition statement, which pledged:

“We will examine the conclusions of the Cave and Walker Reviews and reform the water industry to ensure more efficient use of water and”—

crucially—

“the protection of poorer households.”

I also want to acknowledge that there is an important distinction between water affordability for low-income households and the more general sense of unfairness felt by households in the south-west at having to pay the highest bills in the country.

[Alison Seabeck]

I wish to reinforce the point that we have both unaffordability for households and a huge sense of a lack of fairness; both apply to the south-west.

[Richard Benyon]

I absolutely accept what the hon. Lady says. This year, the average bill for households in the region is almost £490, which is about £150 higher than the national average bill and—to refer to a particular point that she made—about £80 higher than Wessex Water bills, which is the next highest bill area. Affordability is very important. Although we often examine the average water prices across the country, we must also recognise that certain areas contain pockets of poverty where people may pay less in water bills, but utility bills may have a marked effect on their quality of life because they account for a high percentage of people’s net income.

Clearly, bills vary between water companies. That reflects the cost of providing water and sewerage services in an environmentally sustainable way. Ofwat, as the independent economic regulator of the water industry, ensures that bills are no higher than they need to be. The reasons for the relatively high bills—my use of “relative” is, of course, a relative use of the word—in the south-west were looked at by Anna Walker in her independent review of charging for household water and sewerage services. As has been said, she published her final report and recommendations last December, and I should like to take this opportunity to put on the record this Government’s recognition of the thorough and collaborative way in which she undertook her review.

As the hon. Lady said, the Walker report found that at the time of water privatisation, in 1989, South West Water had the lowest regulated asset base per property of any water and sewerage company. Since then, the company has invested about £2 billion, much of which has been spent on sewerage infrastructure and on improving sewerage services. That has brought sewerage standards in the area up to the same level as those elsewhere in England and Wales, and the cost has been met by local customers.

The cost per household has also been compounded by the relatively low number of households in the south-west, together with the relatively high proportion who live in rural areas. Those factors make it comparatively expensive to provide these households with water and sewerage services. Anna Walker recommended that Ofwat should advise the Government on options that could tackle the issue of high water bills in the south-west. The hon. Lady and those who attended a meeting with Ofwat representatives today will know that Ofwat is already working on that.

Some of the options suggested by Anna Walker could benefit all households in the region. In particular, a one-off or other financial adjustment funded by the Government, or an annual adjustment of bills financed by the Government or water customers nationally, could bring average household bills down by about £50 a year. Another option suggested by Anna Walker that would benefit all households in the south-west is a seasonal tariff, which would have the advantage of pricing water in a way that reflects the additional costs that tourists place on the water and sewerage system when they visit the region.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

Certainly; the hon. Gentleman raised this earlier, and I am loth to give him a specific date, but I assure him and all Members of the House that I do not intend to be standing at the Dispatch Box in Adjournment debates in the dim and distant future because I have been unable to give a resolution, as best I can, to this matter. It is clear that I will not be able to satisfy every Member of the House or every one of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, but I will do my best and the Government will do their best to get a speedy resolution to this.

I see the issue very much in two parts. First—this is the point I was making to my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris)—there is an urgency. People are coming to hon. Members’ surgeries in real difficulties and there is work to be done to address their concerns. As we take Walker through the legislative process, following those options, I hope that we will be able to find other solutions on a more medium-term basis. I can only assure hon. Members on both sides of the House that I will meet them to try to resolve these matters and that I will keep them informed as best I can.

I understand that hon. Members who received the briefing from Ofwat earlier today will have heard about the merits and otherwise of the options that have been put forward. There is a fundamental question about who should pay for any new affordability measures. The options are the Government, which means the taxpayer, as the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View has said, and which brings difficulties at this time, or water customers, either at company-specific level or nationally. The hon. Lady will appreciate the need to reduce Government spending to tackle the budget deficit, and she will also be aware of the very strong resistance identified in the Walker review to any suggestion that water customers nationally should subsidise special measures for those in the south-west. The Government will need to take those factors into account when deciding which of the Walker recommendations to take forward.

[Alison Seabeck]

Could not the concern that customers nationally might not want to subsidise the south-west be offset by the fairness argument, in that south-west customers might well find themselves subsidising other areas of the country in future?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady points to a difficulty. She has mentioned the Thames tideway. What we decide to do now to help the south-west might legitimately be raised by customers in other areas in relation to concerns about a multi-billion pound project to improve the national asset that is the capital city. That is a difficult conundrum that I have to face, but I see her point.

Let me take this opportunity to remind the House of the support that is available for low-income households both in the south-west and elsewhere in England and Wales. Under the national WaterSure tariff, the bills of qualifying households are capped at the average bill for their company’s operating area. To qualify for WaterSure, households must be metered, in receipt of means-tested benefits and either have three or more dependent children aged under 19 and living at home—I have five children, so it is possible—or have someone in the household with a medical condition that necessitates a high, essential use of water.

WaterSure ensures that vulnerable and low-income households do not have to cut back on essential use of water because of worries about the potential size of their bills. Anna Walker made several recommendations about changing WaterSure and providing greater support for low-income households, which we will consider as part of our wider examination of the Walker review. In conclusion, I assure the hon. Lady and all hon. Members from the south-west that I will carefully examine the Walker recommendations, including those on water affordability, and Ofwat’s advice on the options for addressing high water bills in the south-west.

Question put and agreed to.