Pat Finucane
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
I am pleased to tell the Secretary of State that I am not vexed.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Does the Secretary of State accept that cracking on in the wrong direction may not be the right thing to do and that this tragic case has roots that lead right back to this House and a previous Government? A Home Office Minister in this House pointed the finger at lawyers a few days before Pat Finucane was murdered and that was sufficient endorsement for a few people—elements in the police and security forces—to send out lunatics in the loyalist paramilitaries to plan the murder of three lawyers, two of whom, now deceased, were friends of mine. The dogs in the street knew this at the time. In doing that, disrepute was brought on hon. Members across the House and those elsewhere who were members of the security forces and of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
We now accept that there was collusion. May I ask the Secretary of State whether the proposed review will confine itself to the narrow details of the murder of Pat Finucane, or will it include investigations into the wider collusion and plotting to kill those other lawyers? Does he know of the destruction of any papers? He will be aware that papers are brought in. I am concerned that Sir Desmond, who is a very honourable and highly reputable man, does not have the power to summon people and papers; his teeth have been removed and many of the papers have been taken out.
Mr Paterson
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was present when I read out the terms of reference, but they are very clear that the review is to draw on the extensive investigations that have already taken place—I have listed the organisations—into the murder of Pat Finucane. That is quite clear.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Swire
I do not think that I showed complacency in my earlier answer. We are fully aware of the effect of the recession on the construction industry not only in Northern Ireland but in the whole of the United Kingdom. It has had a real effect in many of the border areas where people used to go down to the building sites of Dublin and earn their money that way. That is a serious issue for all kinds of reasons. The fact that we came to the aid of the Republic of Ireland has allowed us to have far greater involvement in its investment decisions affecting Northern Ireland, not least those of the banks, as well as in other issues of mutual interest.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Does the Minister agree that air passenger duty is helping to strangle economic recovery in Northern Ireland? Does he have any plans to persuade the Treasury to make changes to it?
Mr Swire
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been a consultation process on air passenger duty, which is continuing, and we have discussed the issue with the Finance Minister at Stormont. These are issues that we take very seriously, not least in respect of what I describe as the economic umbilical cord—the link to New York by Continental airlines. We are keen to see that continue. A number of companies, including the New York stock exchange, came to invest in Northern Ireland because of that air route. As I say, we are taking this extremely seriously and we are batting for Northern Ireland.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Paterson
The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and I discussed this matter at length at Hillsborough the other night. We talked until after midnight. He knows that we are proposing a consultation. If the power is then devolved, it will be up to him and his colleagues to decide the manner in which that is done. [Interruption.] He also knows—if he looks south of the border—that the reduction in corporation tax there was recently described as a “cornerstone” of the success of the rebuilding of manufacturing in the Republic of Ireland.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Can the Secretary of State give us any advice on steps that the Northern Ireland economy might take to become more productive and efficient? [Interruption.] I am thinking especially of research and development, and in particular of European framework programme 7 for R and D funding.
Mr Speaker
Order. I appeal to the House to come to order. It is very difficult for Ministers even to hear the questions that they are being asked.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Swire
That is a good question. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has said that discussions continue with the Government in Dublin about NAMA and the way forward, so they are clearly in regular discussions. Again, no doubt my hon. Friend will inform the House about that in the debate this afternoon, and discuss it with those who wish to take part in that debate.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
7. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport and the Northern Ireland Executive on the development of an air transport strategy for Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
The Government fully recognise the importance to Northern Ireland of a suitable framework for air travel, particularly for the economy and export trade. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I will continue to engage with colleagues in Government and the Northern Ireland Executive as the new aviation policy framework is developed in the new year.
Dr McDonnell
I thank the Minister for his answer, and endorse the point he makes about an air transport strategy and framework being essential to our economic recovery, particularly in respect of tourism. [Interruption.] Can he assure me, however, that he will do all in his power to work with those responsible—both the Secretary of State for Transport and the Department for Regional Development in Northern Ireland—to ensure that we get a functioning strategy that provides air links to Europe, Canada and the United States? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I wish to hear the Minister’s reply, and I am sure the House wants to hear it as well.
The Prime Minister
There is no doubt that regulation has got out of control in this country. That is why my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is introducing a new one-in, one-out rule—so that any time the Government want to legislate or regulate they have to remove a regulation first. That sort of discipline can make a real difference.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Q11. May I put on the record my appreciation, and the appreciation of many, of the goodwill and practical neighbourly support that the Prime Minister and Chancellor have shown to Ireland at this difficult time? It makes very good sense, because the Irish economy, the Northern Ireland economy and the British economy are closely intertwined. But the economic indications are that Northern Ireland is still in decline and the economy is in serious need of a boost. May I ask the Prime Minister for his assessment of the possibility of a boost to the Northern Ireland economy by reducing corporation tax to 12.5%?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the economy in Northern Ireland. We want to see it recover and grow, but everyone in Northern Ireland knows that the size of the state—the size of government—in Northern Ireland has become too big, and we have to see a private sector recovery. We are looking at all sorts of ideas, including the enterprise zone to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland referred. I should also like to put on record my thanks to those Northern Irish Members who are going to support what we are doing to help the Republic of Ireland in its time of need.
Bloody Sunday Inquiry (Report)
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
I begin my brief contribution by extending a welcome to some of the family members of those who died on Bloody Sunday, and also to family members of those who died some months earlier in Ballymurphy. Their valiant efforts in the face of a great injustice have set the truth free. The courage and fortitude that they demonstrated to the world over many years as they fought for justice and truth are remarkable.
I commend and thank Lord Saville for his superb job in delivering an excellent report in difficult circumstances. He carried out his work admirably in those difficult circumstances. His conclusions are unambiguous and distinct. Any effort by any Member of this House to detract directly or indirectly from the integrity of Lord Saville’s report does a great disservice to both themselves and the House.
I want to commend the remarks of the two Conservative Members who served in the Army for the honesty and integrity of their comments, which flesh out the discussion and do nothing to distract from Saville.
The most important and crucial aspect for me was the generous and unequivocal nature of the Prime Minister’s bold and courageous statement and apology on the day that the report was published. That was a watershed. It was a tremendous statement, and it offered tremendous comfort to the families of those who were killed or injured and those who had suffered.
The understanding and sensitivity with which the Prime Minister treated this matter are a lesson for those who might wish to close their eyes and ignore the truth. We require truth, honesty and clarity in our relationships if they are to be worth while. Nowhere is that more necessary than in the relationship between the people of Britain and Ireland. Right hon. and hon. Members discussed some of the backdrop and spoke of the recurrent violence, but if we intend to break with the past and move forward to a stable and peaceful future, we must be honest and open in all such relationships, so that we can co-operate for mutual benefit.
We now have a political framework in place, but we did not have one in January 1972. Those of us who have a spirit of reconciliation and are mindful that ambiguity and lack of clarity creates space in which malevolence flourishes, are committed to ensuring that the circumstances of Northern Ireland in January 1972 never recur. Lord Saville’s inquiry is a tremendous antidote to the malevolent and malign influences that are out there. In discussing Saville and supporting the relatives and families of those innocent people who were killed, in no way do I or any of my colleagues give any consolation, support or justification to the Provisional IRA or those who orchestrated violence over many years; nor do we support the various dissidents.
It is important in this House and other places of authority that the truth is recognised and worked at. Comment has been made on the backdrop of the Saville inquiry, but I was drawn by a note that was taken a few days after Bloody Sunday. The Prime Minister, the Lord Chancellor and Lord Widgery held a discussion, of which a minute was taken. The Prime Minister thought it right to draw a number of issues to the Lord Chief Justice’s attention, including that
“It had to be remembered that we were in Northern Ireland fighting not only a military war but a propaganda war.”
For many of us, that propaganda war was taken a bit too far with Widgery—a great deal too far. That did the British Army and the British Government of the time a tremendous injustice. If I could appeal for one thing, it would be this. Let us be honest and open, as hon. Members are today. Let us tell it as it is and as it was. Let us deal with the truth. The state should never allow itself or its agents, whether military or otherwise, to descend to the level of the paramilitary thuggery in Northern Ireland. That thuggery is not a justification for misbehaviour on the part of official organs of the state. They cannot somehow or other justify themselves by saying, “The thugs were out there behaving in a similar way.” It is important that the state behaves within the law that it sets. That has worried me since I read the Widgery report, but let us move on.
The truth is that the 14 men and young boys who were murdered that day were innocent. That they were wrongfully killed is presented in a transparent and lucid way by Lord Saville. It is important that we now begin to heal the wounds that were created on that day. As I suggested, Widgery poured salt on to those wounds, but the families and the rest of us have put that into the past. People will move forward with confidence now that the truth is established.
Some question the cost involved in finding the truth. Those questions are reasonable, particularly in today’s difficult economic climate, and I fully understand that they are asked. It is incumbent on all of us who ask such questions to analyse how the costs were amplified. For me, the decision to relocate the inquiry to London in order to hear some testimony perhaps doubled—it at least significantly increased—the cost. A further multiplier was the continual obstruction, legal and otherwise, by Ministry of Defence lawyers and others acting on behalf of some of the witnesses. I say that with no malice: it was a factor in increasing the cost. The cost should not be laid at the feet of Lord Saville, who did his best in almost impossible circumstances. If some people had been prepared to tell the whole truth, the cost would have been cut probably by two thirds.
It is important to reiterate that Lord Saville’s inquiry was necessitated by the sheer dishonesty of the Widgery tribunal—I cannot emphasise that enough. That deception added insult to the injury that families suffered and further poisoned relationships between the Irish Republic and Britain. It was a lesson in how things should not be done and, in future, we have to ensure that the relationships within these islands work dynamically and co-operatively to our mutual benefit.
The Saville inquiry was ultimately borne out of the events that unfolded in Derry. I have no intention of dissecting those or going into them in any detail. Nor do I want to second-guess Saville. I urge hon. Members to accept the findings. Regrettably, the Parachute Regiment had—in my opinion, although I understand that others may not agree—to some extent been running amok in west Belfast, inflicting gratuitous violence and death on innocent people for some months previously, especially in the early weeks of August 1971 at the time of internment, when 11 people were killed within 48 hours. Their victims included a Catholic priest, who was trying to tend to someone who had been shot and lay dying, and a mother who was out gathering food for her children’s breakfast. There was no justification for many of those deaths and the families are justified in seeking the truth. They are not looking for a big scene: they are looking for clarity. Their brothers, fathers and mothers were described as gunmen, and that accusation has never been withdrawn.
The financial cost is important, but pales into insignificance when compared with the suffering of the families. Michael Kelly was 17 years old when he was killed on Bloody Sunday. The soldier who killed him tried to smear his name, claiming that Michael was in possession of a nail bomb. That lie was utterly refuted by Lord Saville. Michael’s brother, John, captured the essence of the inquiry when he said that
“anyone attacking the inquiry is attacking the families. Michael was walking on a peaceful civil rights march when his life was taken from him…This is a non-political, purely civil rights issue.”
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I wish to make a contribution to the debate. Much was said at the Bloody Sunday inquiry about how British paratroopers fought to control the streets of the “maiden city” of Londonderry. The inquiry lasted 12 years and cost almost £195 million, and I would like to focus on that, as well as on some of those who have not been mentioned in the Chamber today.
People ask whether the inquiry was cost effective, whether it lasted too long, whether its conclusion was honest and whether it delivered all the answers. The question that many people ask me is whether it will be the last of the nationalists’ demands for an inquiry. We suspect not. Was the Bloody Sunday inquiry value for money? Did it help Northern Ireland to move away from the past and to move forward? Should £195 million have been spent to prove what some people feel was turned into a political point?
I want to focus on the money for a moment. Some of those involved in the inquiry have consistently said that they could have earned more elsewhere. Indeed, one of the inquiry’s leading defence barristers said of the criticism made against him that his earning of £4.8 million was unjust, as he could have earned up to three times that amount by doing work elsewhere. Many of us feel that that is untrue; we do not believe it.
Speaking as a Unionist, I am sick, sore and tired of being told that we must forget the past by those who refuse to forget it and of being told that we must move forward. I am all for moving forward—and fully, totally and absolutely support the political process in Northern Ireland. I am 100% behind that; I believe it is the correct way to go. It is good that those who were once involved in activities that are abhorrent to me and the Unionist people I represent have accepted that democracy and a democratic system are the way forward. That is what I want to see. I fully support that.
I want to be able to focus on the economy and jobs and on opportunities for my children, my grandchildren and everyone else’s. The hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) is right that we should be focusing and it is good that we are able to. Some people, however, still want to hold on to the past and still want to bring up inquiries, talk about things of the past and spend even more money on stirring up and creating division.
Lord Saville spent some five years writing up his 5,000-word submission and report. At the same time, the information technology for the inquiry cost some £34 million. I would ask whether all these costs were absolutely necessary. Was it necessary for it to go on for such a long period? I understand that Lord Saville spent £175 each night on his hotel. For the record, I point out that the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority allows us only £135 a night. I make that point as a small comparison, but it is worth making. The rent of the Guildhall in Londonderry was £500,000 a month. Where was all this money going? Was it absolutely necessary? Flights totalled up millions. Some aircraft companies made a small fortune out of people flying to and fro between Northern Ireland and the mainland.
What the inquiry did not do was deliver an apology to the law-abiding people of Northern Ireland, particularly the Unionist people I represent, who daily faced death. It also failed to apologise to those who wore the Royal Ulster Constabulary uniform or the British Army uniform. I want to say clearly, honestly and frankly here today that the British Army needs to know that the politicians will support it wholeheartedly, both in word and deed. I do and I will, and many other Members will do the same.
Some Members have spoken about other incidents in Northern Ireland and it is worth focusing on some of them. Has there been any talk about having an inquiry into those who were burned alive La Mon? They were attending a dinner, but were brutally murdered. Has there been any talk about inquiring into a person—my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred to him—who has apparently walked away from his past and joined the democratic process? According to the inquiry, this person said he was carrying a machine gun on the day of the incident. One thing I can tell anyone for sure—he certainly was not using it to shoot rabbits. Has there been an inquiry into the Remembrance day atrocity at Enniskillen, which the hon. Member for Keighley mentioned? No, there has not been. Has there been justice for those people? No there has not.
Have we seen justice for the people involved in the Darkley Hall massacre? For those who may not know what took place there, men, women and children were attending a church service. They were worshipping God, yet some were killed and some were injured. Has there been justice for them? I do not believe so. What about the 10 workmen murdered on their way back home after work at Kingsmill near Bessbrook in South Armagh? Can we have justice for them? I think we should. What of the four Ulster Defence Regiment men murdered outside Ballydugan, Downpatrick, three of whom I grew up with and one of whom I knew exceptionally well? Is there justice for them? Is there justice for my cousin, Kenneth Smyth, a former B-special man and UDR sergeant, and his Roman Catholic friend who were murdered by the IRA? I do not see it.
I commend the good work done by the Historical Enquiries Team and I commend how it is trying to help people come to terms with their past. It is good that that is being done.
I hope you will forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I become agitated and perhaps a wee bit annoyed when I hear republicans ask for an inquiry into what happened at Ballymurphy when £195 million has just been spent on another inquiry. Is it necessary? Will it help us to move forward? Will it create a better future in Northern Ireland? Will it help communities to gel, to work together, and to focus on the things that matter—the things that were mentioned by the hon. Member for Keighley? I do not think that it will. Do we want another inquiry into Ballymurphy?
Dr Alasdair McDonnell
The families in Ballymurphy have asked for a withdrawal of the slur on their loved ones. By referring to some political activists who are exploiting them, the hon. Gentleman is distorting the facts. The families are just looking for the truth: the simple truth. If there is another way of getting the truth, let us have it.
Jim Shannon
I am all for getting the truth—I am the first person to put my hand up for that—but I want truth for other people as well. I want truth for the people at Darkley Hall, the people at La Mon, the people who were at Enniskillen on Remembrance Sunday, and the people who were murdered at Ballydugan. I want the truth for all those people. If we are to have truth, we must have it for everyone, not just for selected people. The fact that this process seems to be trying to obtain the truth for selected people is what annoys me.
Let us be honest: that £195 million could have been spent on things that we should all like to see. It could have built schools, hospitals and bypasses. It could have paid for hundreds of operations, and enabled the elderly to be looked after. It could have provided services from which everyone could have benefited. The legacy that we have is a legacy of tears. I cry in my heart, and other Members cry in their hearts, every day. We shall have that legacy with us all our lives: it will never leave us. When it comes to tears, when it comes to hurt, when it comes to pain, we have that as well.
I want to see the people whom I represent being looked after, and receiving an adequate response from the Government. I do not want to see barristers living off the fat of the land and receiving large wages as a result of inquiries. I never want to see another inquiry that drags up the past and, by its very nature, does not help us to move forward. I want to see a future for my children and grandchildren, and I want to see fairness for everyone in Northern Ireland. I want to see that happen for the Unionist people whom I represent, and it is my duty to say that in the Chamber today.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alasdair McDonnell Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Swire
The hon. Gentleman will be glad about our announcement this morning on automatic number plate recognition. That will be a useful tool for the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He mentioned pipe bombs; we condemn all those attacks. They are indiscriminate, and they target innocent people. When we talk about policing in Northern Ireland, it is worth remembering that operational decisions are matters for the Chief Constable, in whom we have great faith and with whom we have regular meetings, and of course the Department of Justice and David Ford. It is perhaps worth remembering that in Northern Ireland, there is still an average of 4.36 police officers per 1,000 of the population. That compares with 2.87 per 1,000 of the population in England and Wales. I am not saying that that is necessarily enough—it can never be enough—but there are police and resources, and we respond to demands from the PSNI.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
What is the Minister’s assessment of the wider security threat in the context of Ulster Volunteer Force activity and the murder of Bobby Moffett?
Mr Swire
I join most people in this House, I suspect, in condemning the gunning down of Bobby Moffett in the cold light of day in a completely unacceptable way, and I pay tribute to all those people who live in that part of the city and who attended his funeral. The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to make any judgment on the case, as it is obviously the subject of ongoing investigation by the PSNI, but it is not impossible that there will need to be a hard line taken later, in the autumn, when the IMC next reports.