Members’ Paid Directorships and Consultancies

Alan Duncan Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)]

As we approach the general election in May, all of us sit in a House that is browbeaten, diminished and increasingly dysfunctional. This place is supposed to be the pinnacle of our democracy, both in providing the Government and in scrutinising them, but, if I may say so, it is not helped by such undignified squabbling.

The sort of Parliament we end up having in a few years’ time will determine whether politicians can meet the challenges of big government and a dangerous world, and serve the long-term interests of the people who elect us, or whether, with the diminution of our political wisdom and conduct, all we do is oversee the country’s perpetual decline. The composition of Parliament and its rules are crucial to that fate. All rules should be fair and even-handed and should not favour one side over another.

Instead of sinking ever more deeply into petty recrimination, today we should ask what Parliament should be. Politics is about interest, about competing opinions and differing views, and about civilised discourse and making laws with the consent of the people. If we try to sanitise all politics by removing all identifiable interests, all we will do is destroy real politics and reduce Members of Parliament to vacuous functionaries. This House needs people of quality and variety who bring genuine experience that is of greater value than the theoretical study of politics and careers founded only in the student union, the special adviser’s office and the party machine.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the register; I have an income from a rental property in Edinburgh.

Will the right hon. Gentleman dissociate himself from the remarks of the Father of the House today at Prime Minister’s questions, when he asked what kind of person would come to this place if they could not have a second job? There is and always should be a place in this House for people who have never dreamt of earning £67,000 a year.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

There needs to be a variety of people, including those who think that money matters, and those who feel that they have forgone so much to be here that there is no disgrace in topping up the salary. We should accept that difference, otherwise we are ruling out of this House a body of people who wish to serve in it, but who might not if they were forced to accept only the salary.

Let me chuck away my notes and, in the short time that I have, say what I think. If we sanitise this House, as people are suggesting, we will end up nationalising the entire process of politics. This House of Commons should be where people come together from all corners of the country, and from whatever background, to do whatever they believe is in the interests of the country.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Sir Alan Duncan]

I will come back to the hon. Lady. The original purpose of paying people was to ensure that nobody could not afford to come here. That concept has been inverted, so that the salary is the cap on what people can earn. That will stop people wanting to come here who could and should earn more because of what they know and what they might achieve.

This is an ultra-partisan motion. It is designed—let us be absolutely clear—to drive out of this House of Commons as many people on the Government side as possible, because people on the Opposition side think that we earn more and could be directors, and because fewer people on their side do such things. That is the fundamental purpose of the motion. It is partisan and designed to catch a headline for campaigning purposes.

I will give way one more time, and then say what should happen.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having finally given way. Sixty-seven thousand quid is roughly what a deputy head or a head teacher earns. Is he honestly saying that if they wanted to add to their great experience by holding directorships and did not turn up to teach the children very often, that would be okay?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Alan Duncan]

We are entitled to say that politics should not exclude people who could earn more and who wish to look after their family in a certain way or do whatever they do. There should not be a capped, nationalised process.

Let me turn this debate towards more constructive points. The quality of the argument about what an MP should be and what an interest is has been completely destroyed by ill-informed comment and the inevitable pressure to get press headlines. There is a difference between having a conflict of interest, which our rules are designed to avoid, and having an interest, which can be a useful contribution to the politics of the nation. We are in danger of becoming a low-achieving, sparring, shallow Chamber in which there is insufficient experience to address the big issues of the day. Some of the questions and exchanges that we hear in the House are of a lower standard than those in a school debating society.

I urge everyone in the House to go back to the Nolan principles of 1995, in the first report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, which explain clearly what an interest is, what the House of Commons should be, why outside interests are a good thing, and how there are differing careers and patterns of life in the House. Some people come here and just want to be a Minister. Sadly, more and more of them push off as soon as they have been a Minister, because they cannot bear to stay here any longer, so they are lost to our deliberations. Some people—it would be better if we had more of them—come here with really good experience and can add to our debates, and they do not want to be a Minister. Why on earth, if they are a good Back Bencher who helps make good law, which, by the way, has become a useless exercise in this House, cannot they earn some extra money and say, “I am serving my country in this way”?

The concept of the full-time career politician does not serve the interests of this country. We should accept that a political career can change over time; someone can be in government, out of government, in opposition, on the Front Bench, and then on the Back Benches. That is what we want. We risk creating a Parliament that people will wish they never had. We are halfway to that already, and if we do not arrest the decline of this House, it is the people who will suffer. If they clamour for what the Opposition are asking for, they and all of the country will regret it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

Entirely reasonable. There are mechanisms available, and I commend them to Members. I made a recommendation on that in 1997.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

May I say to the hon. Gentleman, since this is an example of the low-level sparring from which we suffer, that the reason I did not declare an interest is that I have not got any?

[Paul Flynn]

I was referring to the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry). If Members do not have an interest, so be it, but the right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) had an interest in the past—I remember that he had an interest in his neighbour’s council house a long time ago, of which he has no reason to be proud.

In 1994 we had a disgraceful episode in which Members were caught asking for money for questions, and we have it again now. Can we not accept the shame of what has happened in the past week, when greatly respected, experienced Members have shamed themselves in public and shamed all of us? It shames decent politics, and the only people who will be helped by it are those who are into anti-politics and suggest extremist answers. That will come home to roost in a few weeks’ time, when the respectable parties in the House—the parties based on idealism, as all our main parties are—will be damaged in the poll. We deserve to be damaged, unless we have reforms.

Where will the reforms come from? The Leader of the House said that there had been reforms with regard to the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and the revolving door, but we have had nothing of the sort. It is still possible for any Minister to prostitute their insider knowledge and sell their contacts and experience to the highest bidder. What is to stop them? Not ACOBA—that has not been reformed and is not the Rottweiler it should be. It will say that Members cannot take jobs in areas where they were once Ministers, and cannot do deals while they are Ministers. However, when a contract is up, the Minister will get an indication that if he gives it to firm B, rather than firms C or D, firm B will ensure that he gets a sinecure—a lovely job in retirement. He will get his hacienda in Spain. That is still going on.

The Government have just appointed a new chair of ACOBA who thinks it is reasonable for her to receive £800 a day for a part-time job. People on that committee—the great and the good—are taking those jobs on the basis of what they have gained in public work and in this job. This job should be the pinnacle of their career, but it is not any more; it is a staging post to getting riches later. We have done nothing about double jobs at all. Because of their insiderdom—because they view this issue from the inside—Members have failed to see what the public see from outside: people on the make who come here and use their election and status to make large sums of money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

Absolutely, and that is the key point; we need to get money and lobbying out of politics. When we had the opportunity to put through a strong lobbying Bill, the raison d’être of the Government was to hit the charities which want to tell us to change public policy and not the very lobbyists they have at the heart of Downing street and of No. 10.

Let me just deal with this issue about shadow Ministers and Ministers. Those roles are an integral part of being a Member of Parliament. If Government Members are suggesting that Members of Parliament should not take those roles, they are completely missing the point of what the public are asking us to do. The Prime Minister said exactly the same from—[Interruption.] Madam Deputy Speaker, if the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) got £5 every time he chuntered in this place, he would not need any outside interests from this place. A better view of the world outside would be to listen to what the public are saying to us. We do not need to have highly paid second or third jobs to tell us that, and that is what the public are telling us to do.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

rose—

[Ian Murray]

I hope the right hon. Gentleman does not mind, but I have no time to give way

Let me tell the House who needs second jobs, third jobs and fourth jobs. It is the people who have been failed by this Government: the millions of people on zero-hours contracts, who need more than one job; the millions of people in part-time work who need full-time work—they need more than one job; and the millions of people on short-hours contracts in this country, who have been failed by this Government’s failed austerity programme and the so-called “economic recovery”. Those are the people who need to go out to earn additional money, because they cannot make ends meet from the zero-hours contracts, the short-hours contracts and the part-time work they are currently on, and we should be representing those views in this House.

The motion is not perfect, but the Leader of the Opposition said clearly from the Dispatch Box this afternoon, “Let us agree the principle that this is wrong and let us deal with the issues that are in front of us.” If we do not do that, the public perception of this place will drop even further and it will be to the shame of democracy in this United Kingdom.

[Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)]

I will try to raise the bar of this debate, as at times it has been remarkably undignified in here this afternoon. I am the only independently practising doctor in the House—I thank the Prime Minister for pointing that out earlier at the Dispatch Box—so I guess that, as somebody who has a publicly declared role outside this Chamber, my contribution should have some value.

The House should know that I was selected as a candidate in Bracknell at an open meeting that anybody on the electoral register could attend. At that meeting I declared that I would continue working as a doctor, so when I was subsequently elected the whole electorate knew that and I do not feel that I am doing anything that my electorate have not supported me in doing. During that election campaign I made a bit of a mistake; I am on the record as saying that I thought Members of Parliament should get paid significantly more. I said it in good faith, because I thought this Chamber, this mother of all Parliaments—the Parliament that should lead in this world, not copy other Parliaments—should have the very best people. It is a statement of fact that the best people tend to get paid a bit more, in terms of what they have done in life and whether or not they have been successful; at least part of it is to do with how much they are paid. But I made a mistake, and after four and a half years I am prepared to accept that in my time here, working on Select Committees, contributing in this Chamber some of the very best contributions, on both sides of the House, have been made by people who continue to do things outside this House. Some of the best contributions in the most difficult debates come from people who are working in the field. Many other contributions are pretty substandard because, invariably, they are scripted by other people, such as those in the Whips Office or in outside lobbying groups. The best contributions are from Members who truly know what they are talking about.

Although I understand the Opposition’s desire to improve the reputation of this Chamber, this is not the right way of doing it. The fundamental challenge that we all face in here is the complete breakdown in trust. The rise of the UK Independence party is to do with that anti-establishment and anti-politics feeling. There is a sense that the bigger parties are not listening any more and are populated by people who are in it for themselves.

How do we address this matter of trust? I reflect back to last week when I worked about 40 hours—it will be declared accordingly—both as a doctor and in my constituency. When my patients came in, they recognised who I was. It was interesting to look in their faces, because when they saw I was a politician, they did not want to trust me. Then they realised that I was their doctor, so they were a bit conflicted. I proceeded to treat them and then they left. I then reflected on what had happened. I was the same human being. I have the same values and principles when I am a doctor as I do when I am a politician, and yet I am not trusted. I think it is because the medical profession is about valued knowledge, professional behaviour, honour and integrity— just read what the General Medical Council says—and our patients trust us. They know that, most of the time, we are trying to do the best for them. How come the same is not true for politicians and how do we address that?

[Sir Alan Duncan]

Is it not also the case that, as a result of his practice, my hon. Friend is probably the most qualified person to speak in this House about the national health service?

[Dr Lee]

Yes, I agree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jon Trickett]

No, I do not have time.

The central issue that our motion is intended to address is the crisis of legitimacy that the British governing elite is experiencing. We encounter cynicism wherever we go, and in the end it will imperil the very foundations of our democracy unless we somehow regain the trust and respect of the British people. The question is, can we respond to a new zeitgeist that is everywhere in our country—one that is more democratic, egalitarian, non-deferential and occasionally even unruly? It is right that it should have all those attributes in the second decade of a democratic century.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jon Trickett]

No, I am not going to take any interventions.

If we do not respond to the current mood in the country, we will be lost as a House of Commons. I do not for one minute think that most voters imagine that their elected representatives are somehow superhuman and never make mistakes, and the Leader of the House rightly paid tribute to the two Members who have got themselves into trouble this week. I echo much of what he said. However, voters will judge us on how we respond to our mistakes. We need to show that we have reflected on any errors that we have made and learned the lessons, and that if necessary we will change the rules.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jon Trickett]

No, I am not going to take any interventions, because I do not have time.

We need to show that we have learned the lessons and changed the rules, to prevent any repetition of those errors in the future. The Opposition contend that it is a mistake for the House to continue with a set of rules on second jobs that were designed for another era. There simply is not time to spell out all the arguments for our proposition, but I will make two.

First, in an era when Victorian deference and hypocrisy have long ended, and rightly so, it is no longer acceptable for one set of rules to apply to the governing class and another to the rest of the country. That is how it will seem to millions of people if we continue to have a permissive policy on second jobs. After all, there are millions of people—thousands in every one of our constituencies—who work hard and play by the rules, yet are living in poverty. There are millions more who find it hard to pay their bills at the end of the month. After all, the average working person has lost £1,600 a year in salary since this Government were elected. When the people we represent hear the argument, which we have heard today, that an MP cannot live on £67,000 a year—plus an additional £14,000 for a Chair of a Select Committee, incidentally—they will inevitably ask themselves, “What kind of planet do these people live on?”

What about people who are on exploitative zero-hours contracts, who receive no guarantee that they will have a single hour’s work today, tomorrow, this week, next week or next month? Their contracts also prevent them from taking second jobs. How can we explain to them the idea that we should have second jobs? Then there are 1.9 million people who are out of work. How will the Government parties explain to the people in their constituencies who have no job that some of them have six jobs? It is simply impossible to imagine how they can justify it.

[Sir Alan Duncan]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jon Trickett]

No. The right hon. Gentleman has had his chance and made his speech.

I said that I would develop two arguments. The second relates to who we are here to serve, and it is critical. Every hon. Member, when they first become a Member of the House, swears an oath of loyalty to the country and is required to serve their constituents to the exclusion of all other interests. However, if someone is a remunerated director or a consultant, they have a legal duty to the body corporate that employs them always to act in the financial interests of that corporation. The question that therefore arises in the minds of interested observers is how any hon. Member can reconcile those dual loyalties to the corporation and to the country.

I have previously given the House the example of a paid director of a tobacco company who is also an MP. If a matter of public health concerning restrictions of tobacco sales comes before the House, the perception will arrive in people’s minds that that hon. Member is balancing two interests—those of the person who pays the contract for the directorship, and wider public health. To be blunt, many electors will come to the widely held view that is summarised in a two-word Yorkshire phrase: money talks. The question is not simply about whether an MP has sufficient time to do a second job—although how they find the time is a good question—but about whether there is a conflict between their duty exclusively to serve the public and their employment in the service of a private interest.

The best way to resolve a problem is usually the simplest. We think that the simplest way is to impose restrictions on second jobs, and that is what today’s motion is about. For those reasons, and for many others outlined today, it is time for the House to move on. The Government amendment takes us no further; it is simply an elegant reformulation of the status quo and as such it will not do. Even at this late stage it is possible for Government Members to come through the Lobby, vote with Labour and begin to clean up politics, and I urge them to do so.

Let it be known that if the House rejects the motion today, the Labour party will introduce a new standing order for our MPs to cover these matters in the new Parliament, which is now only a few weeks away. Under those circumstances, let other parties do as they will. The people of the country will judge them.