Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill (First sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

Q Good morning. I will direct my initial questions to Julia.

Ideally, the Bill is supposed to facilitate Sizewell C going ahead. Julia, you said that you view Sizewell C as units 3 and 4 of Hinkley Point C. Given that we are consistently told that the learning from the design of Hinkley Point C went on to Sizewell, why has the taxpayer committed £1.7 billion in the Budget to take Sizewell C to a final investment decision?

Julia Pyke: The £1.7 billion and its use is not published and not available to us. I think there is an assumption that it is for a Government investment in Sizewell C. Whether or not that money is for spending before you reach a final investment decision, or is a Government investment, is the type of investment decision for the Government and not for us.

[Alan Brown]

Q The Chancellor has put that in the Red Book, so can I just check that there has been no discussions with the Sizewell C company about the front money needed to get to the final investment decision, even though that £1.7 billion was explicitly referenced in the Budget?

Julia Pyke: There has been no express discussion about the use of the £1.7 billion in the Budget as pre-development funding for Sizewell C, no. The Government do discuss how it is that we may get from where we are now to a final investment decision, but there is no explicit linking of the £1.7 billion and that discussion.

[Alan Brown]

Q Okay. So if the Bill goes through and we have the right regulated asset base model, would you still be expecting up-front money from the taxpayers to get that final investment decision, even though the design has already been undertaken?

Julia Pyke: We believe that the regulated asset base model—David and Michael will want to comment—is designed to come into place at financial close. The question of how nuclear projects get from where they are now—in the case of Sizewell the project is very mature, with a design and a team, and we have applied for consents; projects that are further behind obviously have a lot further to go and need a lot more money—is its own question. The regulated asset base model is designed to give the private investment community sufficient confidence in investing in nuclear that nuclear can go ahead and take its place in the electricity mix, which benefits consumers. The model is not necessarily designed to be a solution to the period from conception to financial close.

[Alan Brown]

Q This is probably something that I am just not clear on myself, but in terms of the regulated asset base model that the Bill facilitates, what kind of contractual period are you looking for in terms of payback? What would you expect the Government to enter into in terms of the length of contract for revenue payments?

Julia Pyke: If you look at the roughly £200 billion of regulated assets in the UK across the national grid transmission lines, distribution lines, water companies and airports, the regulated asset base model will track the lifetime of the asset. In the case of a UK European pressurised reactor, the operational lifetime is around 60 years.

[Alan Brown]

Q What about decommissioning and the disposal of radioactive waste after that? Would that be at your company’s risk or would there be some sort of revenue payment for that as well beyond the 60-year lifespan?

Julia Pyke: I think nuclear is unique among electricity-generating technologies in pricing in the cost of decommissioning and waste disposal up front. In the gas price, you do not see the cost of dealing with climate change. In the price for other forms of electricity generation, you do not see waste disposal priced in, but in the case of nuclear, the cost of decommissioning and waste management and disposal is priced in to the electricity price.

[Alan Brown]

Q It is priced into a 60-year contract?

Julia Pyke: It is priced into the CfD for Hinkley, and it will be priced into the contractual arrangements for Sizewell.

[Alan Brown]

Q The regulated asset base model is clearly separate from contracts for difference, but in terms of the 60-year payback, you are looking for a lifetime asset. Would you also expect to agree a strike rate for the sale of electricity, what with the electricity generation price aspect? Would that be a risk that goes with the company?

Julia Pyke: A regulated asset base model will tend to pay for the asset to be available. We expect the electricity to be sold at market price and for the regulated asset base model to either provide a top-up, in the way the CfD does, if the costs under the RAB are above the then electricity price, or to pay back in if we see spiking electricity prices, in the way we have done recently, during low wind speeds and the gas price spike. It is two-way.

[Alan Brown]

Q But would the price fluctuation on wholesale electricity prices sit with yourselves, or would you expect that minimum floor price to minimise risk?

Julia Pyke: You would expect the regulated asset base to work in the way the existing £200 billion of regulated assets work, which is essentially to pay for availability.

[Alan Brown]

Q Okay. The Government estimate that using the regulated asset base model will save consumers between £30 billion and £80 billion. How realistic are those projected savings?

Julia Pyke: I believe that the Government have done its calculations very carefully and cautiously, so I believe they are very realistic. They are comparing the cost of money under a contract for difference with the cost of money under a regulated asset base model. It is important to remember that the cost of money is by far the dominant cost to consumers. We need nuclear, and we need to get the cost of nuclear down. The dominant cost of nuclear to consumers is the cost of money, so it is entirely plausible that the Government’s figures have been carefully calculated and are right.

[Alan Brown]

Q Have yourselves or GE Hitachi had discussions with the Government about this—“Here is what the cost of borrowing is, so we predict that these are the savings that will accrue if we go to a regulated asset base model”? Thirty billion pounds is a huge saving—£80 billion even more so.

Julia Pyke: We have, of course, looked at the savings. The most important saving to consumers is that, in building nuclear, consumer bills will go down. Models without nuclear are more expensive—I think the Secretary of State himself has said that in Parliament. That is a major reason to go ahead with nuclear, and it is a major reason to introduce the most cost-effective way of financing nuclear, which the Government has concluded is the RAB.

David Powell: If I can help with that question, from the perspective of GE Hitachi, we are focused on small modular reactors in the UK. While the cost of those is considerably less than the cost of the Hinkley plants, the output is of course a lot less, at 300 MW or so. If you are going to build a fleet of those, which is where we would like to go in the UK—using that repeatability model and a standard licence design, so that once it is designed and licensed it can go through being built repeatedly, which is very much a factory output-type of approach—you very quickly get to the capital cost of something similar to a Thames Tideway project, which was £4 billion. I know that the RAB model is focused around large-scale nuclear projects, but we would also like to see that applied to small reactors or at least be considered. As yet, we have not done any analysis—all our focus has been on looking at costs, and the models have been on the contract for difference approach—but we would like to look at how that RAB model would apply, from the Government’s perspective as well.

Julia Pyke: If you look at the Tideway savings, when Tideway was first conceived of, before it was decided to do a RAB, I believe it was estimated that consumers would have to pay around £80 a year on their bills, and the RAB reduced that to around £25.

[Alan Brown]

Q But, of course, that was by implementing a 60-year payback contract.

Julia Pyke: I cannot recall the length of the Tideway contract, but it is quite long.

[Alan Brown]

Q Sorry, but we are talking about looking forward for yourselves.

You are hoping that RAB will facilitate the small modular reactors as well. Would that be a 60-year operational contract you would be looking for?

David Powell: That is a matter for discussion with the Government and BEIS, but our plant design life will be 60 years, in a similar way to the Hinkley and Sizewell reactors. So, yes, potentially. That really depends on what the developers and investors would like to see.

[Alan Brown]

Q Going back to you, Julia, the Secretary of State determines value for money, as per the Bill, in terms of entering into a contract and signing off. How does someone like me, in Opposition, get to understand the figures, particularly the in-built cost of disposal of radioactive waste? How do I understand what is built into the figures that the Secretary of State can sign off under the Bill?

Julia Pyke: I do not know what plans the Government has to explain the arrangements, but I imagine it will be in line with the principles of transparency. There is a lot information available about Hinkley. Michael made the great point earlier that value for money is around many things; it is the electricity price including the price of decommissioning, but it is also around UK content and around jobs. We will have 70% UK content; we will give rise to around 70,000 jobs. We give work to over 3,000 British businesses. So value for money is a wider metric than just the cost. There is a lot of information available on our supply chain plans and UK content, and I think there will be a lot of information available around the calculation of the RAB price.

[Alan Brown]

Q How many permanent jobs would Sizewell C create?

Julia Pyke: Jobs in construction, using the National Audit Office metric, are around 70,000. Permanent jobs to operate the plant would probably be around 900 in ordinary state, plus several thousand more when there are maintenance outages, which are approximately every 18 months.

[Alan Brown]

Thanks.

[Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)]

Q Welcome. My first question is to Michael. Is the consumer more exposed to overruns and construction delays under CfD or the RAB financing model?

Michael Waite: In the Bill, there is not currently a clear apportionment of risk between the constructor, the developer, the investors and the consumers. It is clear that if we are developing and constructing a project, there are two approaches to ensuring there are no overruns and minimising the chances of cost and schedule difficulties. You can either take a carrot or a stick approach. If the stick is applied to the developer and the constructor, there is necessarily a larger contingency applied from day one. If I remember correctly, in the Hinkley point original negotiations there was a £2 billion contingency for potential problems and cost overruns for a first-of-a-kind project in the UK. That sort of contingency allocation can be minimised by taking more of a carrot approach, where fees and profits can be at risk but a developer and constructor is not risking losing money on the job. There are many mechanisms in place that can incentivise on-time and on-budget operation without apportioning too much risk to the construction community.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown]

Q If Sizewell C gets the go-ahead, how long do you think it will take to get to the commissioning stage and generate electricity in the grid?

Julia Pyke: The construction period is about 10 years, so it will take about 10 years.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. I thank all three of our witnesses, who have had a gruelling session. It has been very useful; a lot of information has been gleaned from your evidence and we are most grateful to you for taking the time to come and speak to us. Thank you very much indeed. Would you mind vacating the hot seat? You will be replaced by only one person in the room. Incidentally, you are more than welcome to stay and listen to the subsequent session. I invite the next panel to join us.

Examination of witnesses

Sue Ferns, Charlotte Childs and Simon Coop gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Whitehead]

Q Is it your view that the present workforce in Hinkley understand that possible process, and that they have, in principle, a willingness to relocate should that sort of model go ahead in the development of Sizewell C?

Simon Coop: The UK workforce are absolutely flexible and they are highly skilled. In construction, the same key workers with the key skills have moved to projects. I do not see that being a major problem in future construction projects. As a result of talking to the company, there are already plans to transfer the operational skills at Hinkley Point B to Hinkley Point C. Those operational skills are currently transferring and people are keen to move on and use those skills at the Hinkley Point C project. There should be no difference in terms of transfer to future construction projects.

[Alan Brown]

Q My question is to Ms Childs. I got a letter from GMB Scotland asking me as a Scottish Member of Parliament to support new nuclear projects because of the jobs that they create. I certainly understand the value of jobs because I come from a constituency where we welcome new jobs, but does the £20 billion for Sizewell C give a good enough return on the jobs created? I would argue that that money could be used to create a manufacturing process or more jobs around the UK rather than that £20 billion being spent at one location. Have those types of discussions happened within the union?

Charlotte Childs: We are a member of that organisation, so the letter you received and the policy that we have set is based on a wide-ranging discussion with our members. In response to your suggestion about investment in manufacturing, it is not a this or that situation, is it? Scotland in particular has benefited greatly from the current nuclear civil generation, and the zero carbon generated by Torness and Hunterston B have contributed to southern Scotland consistently hitting the 2030 target, working alongside other renewables like wind to provide green energy. Without heavy investment in new nuclear projects we will not reach our net zero targets, and Scotland has set itself an even more ambitious target of 2045 to reach net zero. That simply will not be possible without having a consistent and reliable baseload that is net zero in its production of energy.

[Alan Brown]

Q Could that baseload not be created by tidal streams or other alternates that balance better with intermittent renewables?

Charlotte Childs: Those alternates do not exist yet and will not do so for a long time. The technology is not there in the short term to reach the targets that have been set in the near future. It is also about investing in UK skills and jobs, and the existing nuclear supply chain—Sue spoke of Springfields and the nuclear supply chain in place to deliver Hinkley Point C. As Simon and I have said, we need to ensure that the decisions are taken decisively and quickly to protect those supply chain jobs. The supply chain for wind, for example, which you have suggested in the past is a viable alternative to nuclear, is not within the UK. We have the skills and the capability, but we are currently importing turbine parts and steel from China to create the wind turbine fields that are currently being constructed. The £20 billion is a lot of money, but it will create an inordinate number of skills, prospects and social changes for the local area around Sizewell, as well as for the wider UK workforce and supply chain.

[Alan Brown]

Q Thanks. I agree with you about offshore being a missed opportunity for manufacturing in the UK, but tidal stream actually provides that opportunity. Ms Ferns, did you want to come in on that?

Sue Ferns: If you do not mind, I just want to add to what Charlotte has said. Our analysis shows that investment in nuclear is more jobs-rich than investment in other low-carbon technologies. We have done some work, based on Office for National Statistics data, that shows that each installed megawatt of nuclear capacity supports roughly 4.7 direct and indirect jobs, compared with 1.5 in offshore wind and 1.1 in solar. I would be happy to share that analysis with you if it is of interest.

[Alan Brown]

I have seen that—I know some of it is up for debate. It is also about operational jobs. I will happily discuss that further.

[The Chair]

Great. Unless there are any further questions from Members or our witnesses have anything particular to say that they have not said—I see no indication that that is the case—I thank our three witnesses very much indeed for their time before the Committee. Their evidence will be useful in our deliberations over the next couple of weeks, when we will consider the detail of the Bill. I call the Whip to move the motion to adjourn.