Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill

Debate between Adam Jogee and Daniel Zeichner

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Western. I congratulate the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury not just on introducing the Bill, but on her calm and thorough presentation of the issues, which served as an excellent introduction to our discussions.

I associate myself with the shadow Minister’s comments about the range of organisations that have engaged constructively on the long path to this point. He eloquently outlined the history, including the work of Baroness Coffey, to whom I pay tribute for strengthening the legislation in her version of the Bill. I have a sense of déjà vu from previous debates and from last week’s discussions—we are still working on measures that could have been put in place through the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill—but here we are, and we can all celebrate the fact that this is finally going to happen.

Let me reiterate how seriously the Government take the issue. As we have heard, livestock worrying and attacks on livestock have devastating impacts on animals and people. The behaviour of dogs that chase, attack or cause distress to livestock can result in injury or even death to the livestock and has a seriously detrimental effect on farmers and on those who work in the countryside.

I am very grateful for the contributions from Members across the Committee. We all know that the issue is important, but there are some wider implications that are perhaps not so immediately obvious, such as lambs being aborted and flocks of birds sometimes smothered.

Let me repeat some statistics. In 2025, a National Sheep Association survey found that 96% of farmers experienced between one and 10 sheep worrying incidents in the past 12 months. The remaining 4% experienced between 10 and 30 incidents, and one respondent reported 44 sheep killed in a single attack; one of our colleagues conveyed that powerfully in a previous discussion. Those tragic statistics show that it is worth our time ensuring that the Bill is passed.

The Bill takes forward important measures that will extend the locations and species in scope of the 1953 Act, strengthen police powers and increase the penalty from the current £1,000 fine. I am well aware of the strength of feeling among Members across the House, stakeholders and people who live and work across our country.

The main purpose of the Bill is to improve police powers and enable them to respond to livestock worrying incidents more effectively. It extends powers of seizure and modifies entry powers; it also introduces a new power to take samples and impressions from livestock and suspected dogs if there are reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been committed. Obviously, the world has changed a lot since the 1953 Act was passed; the Bill should give the police the tools they need to investigate, collect evidence and, most important, increase the number of prosecutions. It is striking how difficult it is to do that.

The shadow Minister asked about the DNA systems for evidence gathering. DEFRA has part-funded phase 1 of the canine DNA recovery project, which as he said is led by Liverpool John Moores University. The project will support measures in the Bill, and, we hope, facilitate investigations by making it easier for the police to collect the data. We are working with the project team, and I have asked them about how we can ensure the new DNA powers are rolled out effectively with the police.

As we have heard, the Bill extends the scope of the 1953 Act by broadening the locations where an offence may take place to include roads and paths, as the hon. Member for Bridgwater outlined so eloquently. That will help to protect livestock when farmers need to move them from place to place.

The changed wording of the offence and the creation of separate offences for attacks on livestock and worrying is really important; the shadow Minister made that point strongly. The term “worrying” can downplay the severity of some of these offences; the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury made that point very effectively. Reframing the Act so that “attacking” is distinct from “worrying” better highlights the violent nature of the incidents. My hon. Friends the Members for North Somerset and for Stratford and Bow showed that there is widespread understanding of just how serious these issues are. The welcome extension, referenced by a number of hon. Members, of the 1953 Act to include camelids such as llamas and alpacas will allow much greater protection.

The maximum penalty, which is currently a fine of £1,000, will be increased to an unlimited fine to act as a deterrent. The courts will be able to determine an appropriate fine in line with sentencing guidelines that takes account of the seriousness of the offence and the financial circumstances of the offender.

The amendment was so eloquently spoken to that I was surprised to hear that this is the first time the hon. Member for Caerfyrddin has served on a Bill Committee; I hope she is enjoying it. The procedures are sometimes quite complicated. The 1953 Act makes it an offence to allow a dog to be “at large” around sheep in fields or enclosures, and makes it clear that a dog is at large if it is not on a lead or otherwise under close control. She is absolutely right to say that I have raised similar questions in the past about how to further strengthen the Bill’s provisions on that. However, I have been advised that the current approach is sensible, as it places strong requirements on dog walkers to behave responsibly, but does not unduly restrict the circumstances in which a court could conclude that a dog was not under close control.

It is important to get the balance right between responsible dog ownership, which I will come back to in a moment, and livestock protection. We know that many responsible dog walkers enjoy the countryside without incident. The countryside code, which I strongly believe we should strengthen and promote, already provides comprehensive guidance for dog walkers and highlights that it is best practice to keep dogs on a lead around livestock. I pay tribute to organisations such as the National Trust that are doing good work to promote and educate on responsible dog ownership. It is important that people understand what it is sensible to do when walking in the countryside.

The amendment would specify in more detail when a dog should be treated as being under close control, but I have been advised that that that is not expected to change behaviour among responsible dog walkers. The advice that persuaded me to change my mind is that setting out the meaning of “close control” risks inadvertently narrowing the circumstances in which a court would naturally conclude that a dog was not under close control. The benefit of the current approach is that it provides sufficient flexibility for a court to assess whether, on the facts before it, there is evidence that the dog was not under close control, and that evidence need not be limited to proving specific elements such as whether the owner had reason to be confident that the dog would respond promptly to recall. On balance, therefore, I think it preferable not to introduce the more stringent requirement. Although I have sympathy with the points made by the hon. Member for Caerfyrddin, I gently ask her not to press her amendment.

Turning to the wider animal welfare issues, I was delighted to hear the contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Newport West and Islwyn and for Newcastle-under-Lyme, who quite rightly did exactly what one would expect of one’s colleagues and urged the Government to move more quickly. I will relay that message to my colleagues. I assure my hon. Friends that the Government are consulting widely. This is the important point: we were elected on a strong commitment to strengthen animal welfare. We are engaged in detailed conversations with all the stakeholders at the moment and will come forward with proposals that will, I am sure, satisfy my most engaged colleagues. I look forward to having that discussion with them as we go forward.

[Adam Jogee]

Will the Minister give way?

[Daniel Zeichner]

I will certainly give way. I am sure that my hon. Friend is going to press me.

[Adam Jogee]

Old habits die hard, Minister. I am grateful to him for acknowledging my comments and those of our hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn. When he speaks to his colleagues at the Department, will he get us a date for the publication of this strategy?

[Daniel Zeichner]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s helpful contribution. I assure him that a date will emerge in due course. I am very happy to offer the Government’s support for the Bill.

Public Services: Rural Areas

Debate between Adam Jogee and Daniel Zeichner

Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

I am pleased to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Dave Robertson), a good Staffordshire man. He and I do lots of work together, so I enjoyed seeing him cast the iPad away and speak from his heart, which he did very well.

I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak—I will say just a few words, you will be reassured to know. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland (David Smith), who made an excellent, thoughtful, comprehensive, authoritative and engaging speech. He gave voice to his passion for his constituency and for our rural communities up and down our United Kingdom. In this House we talk about being hon. Friends, but he and I are actually friends, which is great. We have a mutual friend who I am thinking of right now, who will be enjoying the fact that I have contributed to this excellent debate.

Like my hon. Friend and many others on the Government Benches, I proud to represent a number of rural communities in God’s own constituency of Newcastle-under-Lyme—Audley, Madeley, Betley, Balterley and Wrinehill, to name just a few. I am proud to speak on access to good-quality, affordable and reliable transport; on tackling flooding—in Madeley that is a particular challenge—and on school finances. I am going to Ravensmead and a number of other schools to talk about some of the pressures that our schools are facing. I am proud to speak about NHS pressures, as was touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield, our ambulances being able to get to incidents and our rural community generally. Newcastle-under-Lyme is indeed on the frontline.

Last Thursday evening I had the great pleasure and fortune of attending a meeting of Audley parish council. I am grateful to all its members for their hard work to champion the needs of their neighbours and our community. They also do very well at holding me to account, as well as the sometimes questionable leadership of Newcastle-under-Lyme borough council. A clear theme of that meeting was the contempt—I use that word consciously—with which the parish council is treated by the Conservative party leadership of the borough council. Planning is just one example of that.

Alongside that Conservative-led borough council, which shows the contempt to which I referred, Staffordshire county council is missing in action—unsurprisingly, it is run by the Conservative party, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield will know. As we are thinking about improving access to services in rural communities such as mine in Newcastle-under-Lyme, thank goodness we have the chance to vote the Conservatives out in May. I look forward to electing good Labour county councillors in Newcastle-under-Lyme.

I do not need to wait until May to vote, of course, because tomorrow in Newcastle-under-Lyme the good people have a chance to express their frustration with the lack of effective services in our rural communities and town centre in the Town ward by-election. The Labour candidate, Sheelagh Casey-Hulme, is brilliant. She has campaigned passionately for a very long time about Walleys quarry, which the Minister heard me make representations about when I was in the shadow DEFRA team, and now as the Member of Parliament for Newcastle-under-Lyme. I wish Sheelagh well in the election tomorrow, as I am sure you do, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

I think probably not.

[Adam Jogee]

No confirmation was sought or provided.

As my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumber-land noted, our rural communities remain at the heart of our country, economy, society, culture, heritage and arts. They deserve to be championed by all layers of Government.

We heard from my hon. Friend just what His Majesty’s new Government are doing to ensure that our rural communities get the support they need. I say gently to the Minister, who knows me well, that we will be holding him and his colleagues at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to account to ensure that we do just that. With that in mind, I wonder whether the Minister would accept my urging to ensure that the rural communities of Newcastle-under-Lyme, and Staffordshire more generally, are at the top of his agenda as he carries out his important duties in the months and years—many years, I hope—ahead.

I also echo the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield, which I think is bang on, and note the cross-party nature of the approach required from Government to ensure that we deliver for our rural communities. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland raised that point, too.

By the nature of their job, vocation, passion and commitment, our farmers are at the heart of our rural communities. They feed us and, in some cases, they clothe us, with sheep’s wool and the rest. They play an important role in keeping our life going, and I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that we advance the buy British and eat British agenda of both this Government and many Labour Members. It is one tangible way that we can not only help our farmers, but ensure that our rural communities get the well-functioning and reliable public services that they deserve. When the Minister winds up this important debate in response to my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland, some clarity on the buy British, eat British agenda would be welcome.

As I conclude my remarks, I invite the Minister to accept an invitation I think I may have already gently put to him—perhaps in a less formal way than raising it on the Floor of the House this afternoon. I invite him to come to Newcastle-under-Lyme to see and understand the challenges facing the rural communities in my wonderful constituency, where he would be very welcome. There are a number of excellent places we can have a cold drink; I think of the many pubs in our rural communities, and there are also tea shops and places for cake.

The Betley Tea Room is an excellent example. It is on a working farm, but it has an excellent tea room. The National Farmers Union has a satellite office there, so we would be able to kill two birds with one stone: we can have cake and see the farm and understand the challenges. In fact, now that I think about it, the Secretary of State—then the shadow Secretary of State—came to the farm and had some tea and cake and a tour. The only thing I would note is that when the Secretary of State came to the farm, he forgot his wellies, so I urge the Minister to make sure he has the appropriate footwear when he accepts my invitation to come and see us in Newcastle.

As I say, there are a number of pubs; I think of The Swan in Betley and The Hand and Trumpet in Wrinehill. You would be very welcome to come and visit us there any time, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will get the first round in. I will take anybody who is interested in seeing the wonders of North Staffordshire, with our local economy and all that we have to offer, exemplified by our rural areas.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland for securing this debate. As I said earlier, he gave an important speech that had us both listening and, I think, inspired—I mean that seriously—both by his commitment to his community and by the wider commitment of His Majesty’s Government to delivering for rural communities. I look forward to working with him and other colleagues—there are now a number of Labour colleagues who represent rural communities, and we are working together to get things done—to deliver for the people of Newcastle-under-Lyme, to help to support the people of North Northumberland, and, most importantly, to deliver for rural communities up and down our United Kingdom.

Government Support for the RSPCA

Debate between Adam Jogee and Daniel Zeichner

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

It is a great pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Twigg. I join in the congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn (Ruth Jones)—and she is indeed a very good friend—on securing this important debate. Her opening speech setting out the history and the issues was very thorough, and absolutely typical of her deep knowledge of these subjects, which she displayed, of course, when she served with me as a member of the shadow team over many years. I am delighted that my hon. Friend continues to be a staunch advocate for animal welfare in this place, and that her commitment to this cause was recognised last month, when, I am told, she won the Nature 2030 award for animal welfare. I also thank the shadow Minister for his kind words for my colleague; they are very well received.

I pay tribute to the RSPCA’s outgoing chief executive, Chris Sherwood, and wish him well in his new role, which I am told is at the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.

I am delighted to take part and reply in today’s debate celebrating the RSPCA’s 200th anniversary and some of the achievements since that first meeting in the London coffee shop in 1824. It has been a very good debate. I was warned in advance that probably a number of people’s pets would be mentioned, and we have had Bella from Waveney Valley and Ted from Westmorland and Lonsdale. I will not add my own.

I welcome new Members to this happy band that joins these regular Westminster Hall debates. I suspect we shall all get to know each other even better over the next few years. Of course, no debate like this would be complete without a contribution from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—I will come to some of his comments in a minute. I am particularly pleased to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd East (Becky Gittins), who made important points about the microchipping consultation. I can tell her that they are under very serious consideration. The points she made about the database were well made, but these are inevitably complex issues.

I am pleased to see the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) here; he made a series of important points. There are clearly issues around greyhound racing and welfare. Those involved in that sport are making considerable efforts to address those issues, but we are monitoring them carefully and if action is needed, it will be proportionate and sensible.

The hon. Gentleman also raised important points about poultry production. Of course we want to improve animal welfare in any way we can, but I gently say to him that the trade issues are complicated, and there is no point in our moving unless we can move in tandem with others. Exporting cruelty does not solve the problem. This is a complicated set of issues, but we clearly want to make as many improvements as we can.

I was pleased to hear the important points that my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) raised about animal testing. I will come to them in a moment.

As we always say, we are a nation of animal lovers. The RSPCA plays a crucial role and should be given significant credit for helping shape the attitudes towards animal welfare that underpin our society. The comments by the hon. Member for Strangford about the USPCA informed my thinking; I was not entirely aware of its work. The inspectors and animal rescue officers of the USPCA and the RSPCA work—in often extremely challenging circumstances—to investigate and rescue animals from harm, and they deserve our thanks and praise, as do the staff and volunteers who work tirelessly to rehabilitate and rehome so many animals and give them a better life. The RSPCA has proven to be a formidable champion of animal welfare over the past 200 years, and successive Governments have greatly benefited from its expertise and advice.

Hon. Members have raised a number of campaigns and issues, and I will try to set out our position on some of the main ones. In our manifesto, we outlined that we are committed to ending puppy smuggling. Since the pet travel rules were harmonised with the European Union in 2012, there has been a significant increase in the number of non-commercial pet movements into the UK. Sadly, it tripled since 2011 to more than 320,000 dogs and cats in 2023. The number of dogs, cats and ferrets imported under the commercial rules has also significantly increased over the past few years. I listened closely to the comments of the hon. Member for Strangford about cat movements. By the nature of the crime, we cannot know the true extent of pet smuggling operations, but we know that commercial imports of dogs and cats are being disguised as non-commercial movements, as they are subject to less stringent checks.

Sadly, there is also an emerging market for the importation of heavily pregnant dogs and dogs with cropped ears—a painful practice that has been rightly banned in the UK for more than 15 years. We intend to clamp down on unscrupulous traders who prioritise profit over welfare. This problem is linked to dog breeding issues. We are working closely with the UK Brachycephalic Working Group to reduce the number of dogs affected by that condition.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn mentioned the overriding recommendation of the 2015 Law Commission report into wildlife legislation—namely, that wildlife laws in this country need to be consolidated. I cannot today commit to bringing about that consolidation, but it is clear that we need more consistency and clarity. Our general election manifesto included an explicit commitment to bring an end to the use of snare traps, which I am sure hon. Members will welcome, but I am conscious that questions are posed about the humaneness of other wildlife traps. The law should be there to improve the protection of our wild animals, not only from an ethical standpoint but because the protection of wildlife is a crucial part of our approach to meeting our nature recovery ambitions.

[Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his speech; it is wonderful to see him in his place. I spent five years before my election to this House working in the office of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn (Ruth Jones), and in the shadow DEFRA team with the Minister, so it is very good to be here listening to him. On that point, I urge him to be bold and ambitious. The shadow Minister’s speech was like a rehash of a previous life, but his rose-tinted version did not quite match my recollection. We seek to have the strongest approach to animal welfare, so let us be bold and do what the Conservatives did not.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I shall always listen to my hon. Friend’s exhortations to be bold. Watch this space in the coming few months.

Finally on wildlife, significant sanctions are available to judges for those convicted of most wildlife crimes, but there are questions as to why there are different penalties for similarly abhorrent acts against different species. Bringing more consistency seems worthy of closer consideration. The Government will look at how best to deliver nature restoration and enforce animal welfare standards for wildlife.

Moving on to points raised especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough about phasing out the use of animals in experiments, the use of animals in science is a highly sensitive issue. We agree with the RSPCA that it is essential to replace the use of animals with humane alternatives. That is why we made in our manifesto a commitment to partner scientists, industry and civil society as we work towards the phasing out of animal testing. We are engaging with key stakeholders with an interest in animal research as to how we will take that commitment forward. I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn asked for a timetable in her opening statement; I assure her that it will be done in due course.

The UK is world leading in the development of alternative methods to using animals. This Government are keen to ensure that such methods are used wherever possible. However, technology is not quite yet at the stage where animal testing can wholly be replaced. We want to replace the use of animals in scientific procedures where we can, but for now the carefully regulated use of animals in scientific research remains necessary if we are to protect humans and the wider environment.

The use of animals in such testing is limited to specific purposes. Furthermore, the use of animals in scientific procedures is permitted only if no alternative is available, where the number of animals used is the minimum needed to achieve the scientific benefit, and where the potential harm to animals is limited to the absolute minimum needed to achieve the scientific benefit. Those are collectively known as the three Rs of replacement, reduction and refinement.

I also recognise the significant public interest in the welfare of farmed animals, and the immense contribution that the RSPCA has made to help raise farm animal welfare standards through its lobbying and its farm assurance scheme, RSPCA Assured. I heard the comments by the hon. Member for Waveney Valley, but I am confident that the work that the RSPCA is doing will restore confidence in that very important scheme.

I appreciate the strong public demand for clearer animal welfare information on the food people buy, to help them make purchasing decisions that align with their values. The public consultation on fairer food labelling was undertaken earlier this year by the previous Government. That consultation sought views on proposals to extend existing mandatory methods of production labelling. We are carefully considering all the responses to the consultation before deciding on next steps. We will publish a response to the consultation in due course.

On cages and confinement, I am very much aware of the strong public feeling about keeping farm animals in cages and of the recent campaigns, including by the RSPCA, urging the Government to publish consultations on phasing out the use of enriched colony cages for laying hens and of farrowing crates for pigs. I appreciate the RSPCA’s role in leading the way on encouraging high standards when it comes to this issue, with RSPCA Assured not permitting the use of colony cages for laying hens or farrowing crates for pigs.

I am encouraged that the market itself is driving the move to alternative systems for laying hens—primarily free range and barn—away from the use of cages. The transition to non-cage egg production has been supported by the major supermarkets, which have pledged to stop selling shell eggs from hens kept in colony cages by 2025. That shift by retailers has accelerated the move away from colony cage systems. Free-range eggs account for more than 60% of total egg throughput in the UK.

We will not, however, leave the issue to market forces alone. The transition to cage-free systems is being supported by grants in England for laying-hen and pullet farmers with flocks of 1,000 birds or more to refurbish or replace existing housing, including those looking to make the transition from colony cages to higher-welfare non-cage systems.

As with cages for laying hens, the issue of ending the use of pig farrowing crates does not only affect the UK industry, but is something that our European trading partners are also considering.