Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Viscount Trenchard Excerpts

Saturday 10th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, like other Members of the House, I thank Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II for her service to our United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. Honour, duty and the service of Her Majesty have been spoken of movingly over these two days of tributes. I thought the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition set the tone wonderfully with their beautiful speeches yesterday.

When I go to an education centre or visit a school, I am usually asked, “Have you met the Queen?” I have to say that no, I have not; but I have had the enormous privilege and honour of being a Member of this House, being here at State Openings and watching Her Majesty’s addresses from the Throne. It is a real privilege that all Members have had.

We all know of Her Majesty’s love of horses and horse-racing. We have seen the joy on her face when she has had a winner at a meeting she was attending. We have also seen her attend many other sporting events. What many in the House may not know is that Her Majesty’s first football match was on 9 April 1945 as the young Princess Elizabeth, in her service uniform. It was the Football League War Cup South Final. The match was Millwall v Chelsea and, surprisingly, my team Millwall lost 2-0. Millwall was playing in blue and white, having been founded by Scotsmen who had come down from the east of Scotland to work in the docks.

We know of Her Majesty’s love of Scotland, her United Kingdom and our brotherhood of nations. One of her legacies that we need to work to ensure is that the United Kingdom remains united.

I endorse the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, who is in her place, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall about Her Majesty’s support for the arts. She, along with her husband Prince Philip, took great interest in the campaign led by Sam Wanamaker to raise funds to build a replica of Shakespeare’s Globe, close to the original site at Bankside in Southwark. It was to the great joy of everyone involved in the campaign—I was involved to some extent—that Her Majesty opened the replica theatre on 12 June 1997.

My heritage is Irish: I am second-generation Irish, born to Irish parents here in London nearly 60 years ago. I have a great love of Ireland and everything Irish. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and my noble friend Lord Anderson of Swansea, among others, recalled in their speeches Her Majesty’s state visit to Ireland which was, as we all know, a tremendous success. It was the first visit to the Irish Republic by a reigning monarch since 1911, when it was of course part of the United Kingdom. She visited several significant sites, including Croke Park. As we have heard, a few opening words of her address at the state banquet were in Gaelic. It was a memorable visit: a truly great success of a great monarch and diplomat, recognising our countries’ shared history—some of it difficult, but moving forward together in partnership.

I also recall the television pictures of Her Majesty shaking hands with the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness, in June 2012. I remember the smiles and thinking, “What progress has been made!” It was an historic event in itself that would have been unimaginable some years earlier.

We are all so fortunate to have lived during the reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, a remarkable woman and our greatest monarch. Her legacy lives on and we should honour her by doing everything we can to ensure that it endures.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to be able to follow the impressive and interesting tribute by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. Indeed, after hearing so many excellent tributes by so many noble Lords, it is difficult to find something new or interesting to say which has not already been said. I had hesitated to put my name down to make a tribute, but then I thought it was actually my duty to make a contribution.

After all, I am proud to have been involved in three organisations of which Her late Majesty was the titular head. She was colonel-in-chief of the Royal Green Jackets, air commodore-in-chief of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and patron of the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund. At first hand, I have seen how seriously she took her responsibilities for these organisations and how genuine was her interest in all of them. She made everyone involved in them feel better all the time and, of course, did the same for so many other organisations.

As my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal said in his moving tribute yesterday, no one ever questioned her work ethic. Her devotion to duty was absolute and never faltered throughout her long reign. She made all those who were fortunate enough to cross her path feel better about the world and themselves. She was always a calming influence.

The British people are sentimental about animals and very many love dogs, as did the Queen. My late mother-in-law was lucky enough to come to own two of the legendary “dorgis”, Lockett and Whitty. They were faithful companions during the final years of her life. The Queen’s qualities of loyalty and faithfulness had rubbed off on the dogs she bred.

Her knowledge and expertise in breeding dogs was exceeded only by her prowess as a breeder of horses. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury and others have spoken of her expertise in equine matters. Many of your Lordships will have seen the pure joy that seeing a horse that she had bred win on the racecourse brought her. I was glad to hear Nicky Henderson speak of that on the radio this morning.

Although we have known that her reign would not go on for ever, the depth of her presence in the life of our nation was such that, at the same time, we did not believe that it would not continue for just a bit longer. We almost came to believe that she was immortal. Now that we have lost her, we realise even more how much we valued her. The whole nation is deeply saddened and shaken by the huge significance of the ending of the second Elizabethan age. Multitudes of people around the world, citizens of her realms, of Commonwealth countries and of other lands, whose regard for this country has ever been strengthened by their admiration for its monarch, similarly mourn her passing.

The thousands of people thronging out of Green Park station yesterday led me to walk with them across the park up to Buckingham Palace, to experience how they were thinking and to marvel at the deep affection in which they held our late Queen. How lucky we are to have a constitutional monarchy, which provides a higher power with which we can all identify, irrespective of background, politics and other differences. An elected president with a limited term can never serve as a symbol of the ultimate unity of the nation and its people.

All of us who sit in your Lordships’ House are privileged to be able to pay tribute to our wonderful, late and great Queen and to offer our sincere condolences to His Majesty the King and the other members of the Royal Family, as they turn the page and a new chapter in our nation’s story begins. May she rest in peace. God save the King.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, Her Majesty bequeaths to our country and people continuity, certainty and the strengths embedded in the timeless traditions of our constitutional monarchy. She has been our country’s chief and greatest diplomat, smoothing the path for politicians and officials with charm, wisdom, grace and memorable humour. Her Majesty imbued a lifetime of service and deep consideration with unwavering appreciation to her realms and territories, to the countries of the Commonwealth and far beyond, carrying her values, her profound sense of duty and her love.

As we enter this extended period of mourning heavy with grief, there is, however, a silver lining evident beyond the clouds, the most significant being her heir, our King. I venture with humility that the tribute that we offer to Her Majesty is to thank her for her tireless dedication and to work to ensure that her legacy endures for centuries to come.

In doing so I pay tribute to the King’s already formidable achievements. His honed skills with well-respected guidance on climate change, organic farming, the built environment and multi-faith issues—often ahead of his time—are always useful and relevant. However, particular attention must be given to assuring the continuity of our United Kingdom by listening and learning, and that the legacy of the Commonwealth evolves and modernises to ensure its continued relevance and place in the world. The King shares that resolve, I believe, by promoting the dignity of all peoples and beliefs, respect for their cultures and heritage, support for those less privileged and dialogue for greater understanding of seemingly intractable problems.

A new monarch, a new Government, a united people, an appropriate place in the world and the opportunity of a new beginning for a renewed United Kingdom—that is a good place to be. God save the King and the Queen Consort.

European Union Referendum (Date of Referendum etc.) Regulations 2016

Viscount Trenchard Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this important debate. I spent many years living and working in Japan, and I have seen how Japanese people in business and politics view the UK and the EU. I was proud to be vice-chairman of the European Business Council in Japan but holding that office did not require me to support the subjugation of English law to EU law or the adoption by the UK of EU political and judicial structures.

I have also worked in Brussels, where I was amazed at the excessive construction of huge buildings housing thousands of civil servants duplicating or taking over functions previously carried out by member states’ own Civil Services. We are, of course, fortunate in having my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford as European Commissioner for Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union. As he pointed out in his letter to the Times yesterday, he has brought forward two pieces of legislation, which have been warmly welcomed by the City, to kick-start securitisation to support lending and to simplify the requirements of the prospectus directive. However, there is no reason why our Financial Conduct Authority, freed from its subjugation to the European regulators, could not have introduced such measures. Besides, we cannot expect that the next British commissioner would be appointed to the same office. My noble friend’s predecessor, Michel Barnier, introduced the unnecessary and harmful alternative investment fund managers directive, even though there was little appetite in Brussels, until recently, to legislate to regulate a business sector that is principally based in the UK.

I wholeheartedly support doing everything that makes sense for us to do in collaboration with other European countries, many of which are members of NATO, which guarantees our national security. Our trade in both goods and services would not be much affected whether we leave or remain in the EU. I am quite confident that we could negotiate a satisfactory agreement with the EU and believe that we should resume our membership of EFTA. In addition to that, as proposed by the late Ronald Stewart-Brown of the Trade Policy Research Centre, we could negotiate to stay in Europe for trade through a new intergovernmental customs union agreement with the EU with full UK voting participation in customs union policy decisions and internal market harmonised trade regulation. We would be free to negotiate our own new agreements with other countries in areas such as trade in services and investment, which are currently EU competencies.

Just as Japanese companies and other international direct investors were unduly worried about our deciding not to join the euro, they are now unduly worried for similar reasons about the possibility of Brexit. I find they are considerably reassured if it is explained to them that the UK could expect to conclude a satisfactory basis of continuing to trade with the EU. In spite of the sterling efforts of my noble friend Lord Hill, our financial services industry is increasingly constrained by the EU supervisory and regulatory regime under which it is required to operate. On its own, the UK would never have chosen to introduce much of this EU financial services and insurance regulation. Most of our financial services and insurance exports to the rest of the EU are wholesale in nature and therefore not dependent on the UK’s EU membership. Arguably, the single market in services, especially financial services and insurance, is much more about EU integration through EU-wide legislation than it is about trade liberalisation. I believe the downside risks for the City of a well-negotiated UK withdrawal from the EU would be quite limited and comfortably outweighed by the benefits of being able to offer a more attractive and less cumbersome UK regulatory regime to foreign and UK investors, both for business with Europe and for exports to the larger, fast-growing markets in the rest of the world, free of the burden of inappropriate UK regulation.

I salute the Prime Minister for his dogged determination in trying to achieve as many as possible of the promises that he made to the electorate, but the negotiation process has revealed clearly just how difficult it is to get even relatively minor restrictions on benefits payments to migrants agreed, as just one example of how impotent we have become.

Many people argue that it would be a leap in the dark and involve too much risk for the UK to leave but, on balance, I believe that the greater risk for the UK lies in remaining a full member of an institution which, in order to recover from its current problems, needs to move in the opposite direction from where I believe we want to move. The eurozone needs to integrate and share more sovereignty, and I believe we will be less comfortable as a member of a more integrated EU as it moves inexorably towards statehood than we are now, notwithstanding the protections obtained by the Prime Minister for non-eurozone countries.

If our withdrawal from the EU were to deal a fatal blow to the European project, it might ironically force our European partners to morph the EU into a looser association based on free trade or free trade plus to which we might in turn be happy to belong. If associate member or trade member status were available for us now, I would certainly vote to remain, but the special status offered to us is not special enough and is not fundamentally different from the special status we have enjoyed before as a result of our various opt-outs. The train that we have boarded continues to travel in a direction in which we do not want to go, and now we have an opportunity to get off it. On balance, I think we should take it.

European Union Referendum Bill

Viscount Trenchard Excerpts

Monday 2nd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

I very much understand why the noble Lord makes a distinction, because—I will say it again—the amendment that he has produced in its form will hope to skew the results. One point made in this short debate is that the reason for having this rather skewed amendment is that people who live in the European Union like living there. Well, fine, but it gives a perspective on the answer that they might give in a referendum. I have no doubt that the noble Lord has that in his mind. I therefore say to the Government, who are meant to be neutral in all this, that in the interests of fairness and neutrality, and if they are going to extend the franchise, they should listen to the arguments for doing so on a worldwide basis.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, wholly agree with what my noble friend Lord Flight said—that if we are going to extend the vote in the referendum to those United Kingdom citizens who live outside the United Kingdom, it should be extended to all of them. However, I do not feel that those who live outside the United Kingdom have quite an equivalent right to vote as those who live here. As democracy was being extended in this country, it was often said, “No taxation without representation”. I seem to remember that when I went to live and work in Japan, I stopped paying United Kingdom income tax fairly immediately, although I did have to pay Japanese income tax, which was at rather a higher rate.

I later became chairman of Conservatives Abroad in Japan, and asked for the franchise for those of us who were abroad for a relatively short time with the clear intention of coming back. If you have been abroad for a long time and made your life abroad and have no intention of coming back to the UK to live, your right to have your voice heard in a general election or referendum is somewhat less. There may well be a case for extending the franchise beyond 15 years to United Kingdom citizens abroad, but there are practical difficulties in tracing who they are. On which electoral register would they be if they no longer have any family members living in the area where they previously lived? It seems rather complicated, so I cannot support the amendments.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

On the point about British citizens living in the EU, of course I go along with the principle of no taxation without representation, but many of our citizens who live on the continent worked in Britain all their lives, paid taxes all their lives and have gone to the continent to retire. So it is a bit hard to deny them the vote on the no taxation without representation ground.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I have listened to this debate with fascination. It is, of course, crucial. It raises huge issues and takes us right back to the origins of the move towards having a referendum at all. In the end, what we need in this country is leadership and people who stand up for what they believe in and argue for it. This vision of nurturing an imaginary world in which somehow the provision of passive, impartial information will enable people to make up their minds is naive, as has been said. What enables people to make up their minds is an argument of real substance adduced with passion and conviction. That is the issue.

I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has given us an opportunity to have this debate although I have slight anxieties about how you can spell out the consequences of this situation. That seems to me a very absolute understanding of how human affairs are conducted. I do not know that you can say what the consequences are. However, you can say what the implications are and they can be well argued and substantiated, and a report of that kind would be helpful.

Having had the privilege to serve on the home affairs sub-committee of the European Union Committee, I know that the sense of urgency behind our deliberations has not been neglected. The sub-committee looked at the implications of change in the home affairs role and at crime and security. One thing was absolutely clear in those deliberations—modern crime is completely internationalised. Indeed, one thing was devastatingly clear—terrorism is totally internationalised. There can be no one in this House who does not lose sleep over security issues. We took evidence from people in the front line with practical, in-the-field responsibility in these spheres. It is worth noble Lords looking at not just that report but also the evidence because what came across to me as we listened to that evidence was that virtually without exception those with operational responsibility said that, unless we had gone mad, we must realise that we could handle this situation only with effective international arrangements in place. They had not a shred of doubt that we would have lost our marbles if we ceased to co-operate within the context of Europe. It is there in the evidence. Noble Lords should not listen to the opinions of fellow Peers but should read the evidence. However inadequate, however much there is need for change and improvement in the relevant arrangements, the European dimension has become indispensable to work in that sphere.

I think that a timescale of at least 12 weeks before the referendum is incredibly short for consideration of any report, but I also think that it is awfully luxurious in terms of how much time would elapse before such a report was available. If we are talking about the safety of our families and this nation and the protection of our industry, given the cyber issues that have been raised, we need factual information from the people in the operational front line about what we are luxuriously contemplating. The immediate security issues affecting our people today—tonight—demand that we know what we are going to do and how we are going to achieve that if we withdraw from the European Union, and how we ensure that the co-operation which those in the front line see as indispensable is maintained.

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I will not detain the Committee by going over all the arguments that have been made. I, of course, agree with those noble Lords who think that the information and any statements that may be produced should inform people about the consequences of remaining in as well as leaving the European Union. However difficult that may be, at least the Government should say what kind of association with the European Union they think would be desirable for the United Kingdom to pursue in the event that it votes to leave the EU.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth commented that under the Bank of England bank deposit guarantee scheme the maximum amount that is guaranteed has been reduced from £85,000 to £75,000. It is clear that that is because the euro is the currency of the European Union and all monetary values are determined in euro amounts. I suspect that this has happened because the sum was fixed at €100,000, which was approximately £85,000 and is now approximately £75,000. That is why the Bank of England has reduced by a significant percentage the maximum amount available under its guarantee scheme.

I also noticed that, according to the Daily Telegraph, Cabinet sources have informed that newspaper that the Prime Minister’s thrust for substantial alterations to our terms of membership will cover four main areas, and that he is asking for an explicit statement that the euro is not the official currency of the EU, making it clear that Europe is a multicurrency union. From that it follows that if Europe is to be a multicurrency union, it would not be possible in future for the Bank of England arbitrarily to reduce the maximum amount under its guarantee scheme in the way that it has, or to increase it, should the currency movement be reversed.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Is the situation not even worse, however, in that even if the Bank of England wished to set another level it cannot do so? British pensioners and savers are having to reorganise their savings to make a reduction. The British Government, the Prime Minister or the Bank of England do not have the power to decide a simple matter, such as how much is guaranteed on deposit. That illustrates how overwhelmingly intrusive Europe has become.

[Viscount Trenchard]

The noble Lord is completely right. As I said in at Second Reading, it is necessary that our renegotiations should include the repatriation of financial regulation, the independence of the Bank of England from the European authorities, and the independence and equivalence of our own financial regulators with those of the European ones, which should be those for the eurozone.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, in intervening briefly on this group of amendments, I apologise for doing so after having been unable to speak at Second Reading or in Committee last week, because of a serious family illness. I hope that the Committee will permit me to make a brief intervention, despite that absence.

I want to say two things. One has been said more than adequately by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. This concerned the point in Amendment 21 that stresses that the report on withdrawal should cover law enforcement, security and justice. The noble Lord is right: we should listen to the police and others in front-line operational roles. This indeed happened with the exercise of opting back in to 35 measures and that is what was so persuasive. That has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Judd.

Secondly, in supporting this group of amendments, particularly Amendment 21, may I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart? He suggested that those of us who are perhaps on the inside have a lack of confidence in the UK. I deny that charge. It is not about lacking confidence in Britain, with its overtones of almost being unpatriotic, a charge I also deny; it is about living in the real world.

May I also take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra? Earlier, we heard that somehow we know better than the US trade representative. Mike Froman, a senior and serious person, has, in the words of the Financial Times, “poured cold water” on the prospect of the UK negotiating its own trade agreement with the US or with other major trading partners, such as China. He said that the US would have little interest in doing so and that the UK could face the same tariffs as China, Brazil or India. With respect, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, suggested that we know better than the US what the US would want to do.

European Union Referendum Bill

Viscount Trenchard Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I defer to my noble friend Lord Wigley in his knowledge of the Welsh language and look forward to learning further from the Front Bench with respect to the validity of the Welsh question. I had the misfortune to attend a traditional Welsh grammar school, where I was able to give up Welsh for Greek at a tender age, but I look forward to the further debate on this—and I look forward to appearing on the same platform with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, as we did in 1975. Indeed, the first time we met, when we got on famously, was when as a young industrialist he came to see me; I had been in the Foreign Office, working on a European desk, and he came to—wait for it—seek my advice on the European Union. We have not looked back since.

On the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in the earlier part of this evening’s debate we decided that the rules should be set by the Electoral Commission. At this point, surely the presumption on a matter of this sort should be—this is the very purpose of the Electoral Commission—that we defer to it in respect of such rules and, if we do not follow those rules, we have a very good reason for so doing. With all respect to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and the presumption that I made, I have not heard from him a weighty case against the change and for the reversal he now proposes.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton. I was interested in the remarks of my noble friend Lord Flight. It is interesting that the Electoral Commission did not support the amendment; I thought that perhaps it was because the status quo should go first and a departure from the status quo should come second but, as my noble friend Lord Flight remarked, normally in a referendum the change that you seek comes first and the present position—the status quo—comes second. I am not clear which is right, so I think that probably my noble friend Lord Hamilton is right in saying that alphabetical order should prevail.

I am not going to enter into the debate on the intricacies of the Welsh language, as put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I am perfectly happy to accept that what he says is correct. But I was clearly struck by the fact that he is one of those noble Lords who will campaign to remain a member of the European Union—and, I would like to say, to remain a member on the present basis, whatever the Prime Minister is able or unable to negotiate.

He also remarked in quite strong terms that leaving the European Union would be extremely detrimental to investment. It is not possible to know that without knowing the basis on which the United Kingdom might cease to be a member of the European Union—I would rather say, might cease to be a “full member” of the European Union. Ideally, I think that the Prime Minister should work for a trading relationship with the European Union, which could well be as a trading member of the European Union. So I do not really like the referendum questions—“remain” or “leave” the European Union—because “leave” sounds like a tugboat will come and attach a tow rope to our little island and tow us off into the Indian Ocean or somewhere where we might enjoy better weather. The reality is that we cannot leave the European Union in a geographical sense because we are adjacent to core eurozone members.

I would like to see the Prime Minister achieve substantial and significant reforms to our basis of membership, which may well mean that we cease to be a member on the current basis. The relationship with the other members of the European Union might be some kind of associate status or a reformed EEA or a reformed EFTA. I therefore take issue with the noble Lord’s strong comment that it would be detrimental to investment if we were to leave the European Union.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I was startled to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, give as a reason the way in which names are produced. It is entirely true that it normal practice to use alphabetical order for names and for names of countries, but it is not so for verbs—and these are two verbs. So I do not think this has any validity. The Electoral Commission wants the wording in the Bill for the very simple reason that it put it forward. It would be a bit startling if it now found that it had put forward the wrong wording. It has not; it has put forward the right wording, and the Government, who did not start with this wording, moved to the Electoral Commission’s wording in the other place—and I honestly suggest that that is the best place to stand.

--- Later in debate ---

Overall, I do not think we should go along with the precedent created in Scotland. As far as I am aware, there was nothing in any manifesto which said we must change the age of consent generally—noble Lords will correct me if I am wrong—so if we are going to go along that route we must take into account all the points made from the Front Bench. We really ought not to go along with making a change of this kind in legislation which does not cover all the broader arguments.

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I echo the views of my noble friend Lord Higgins. I argue against these amendments on the grounds that this is not the proper place or time to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year- olds. Just because, in my view, a mistake was made in Scotland, that does not justify making a second mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right.

You could also argue that, if you think that 16 and 17 year-olds do not have the political maturity to make decisions for the next five years, how much less should we trust them to have a voice in decisions that are going to have an effect for a very much longer period than that? I do not think you should make a distinction on the grounds that someone is going to live much longer and this is going to affect them for much longer. If you have political maturity sufficient to elect your Member of Parliament, you probably have the same political maturity to vote in a referendum.

Another point that has not yet been made is this. I wonder what the result would be if you asked a cross-section of 18 to 25 year-olds whether they thought that 16 and 17 year-olds should be given the vote.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I wonder whether the noble Viscount is aware of or takes part in the admirable Peers in Schools scheme that the Lord Speaker has instituted, where Peers go out and talk to young people about the nature of your Lordships’ House. Those of us who are active in that scheme meet a wide cross-section of young people—and please let us call them young people, not children; it is very demeaning to call 16 and 17 year-olds children, even though legally they may be so. When you go into classrooms of 16 and 17 year-olds, the degree of maturity, thoughtfulness and balance evinced by those young people is fascinating. They frighten the living daylights out of me with their level of maturity. If the noble Viscount has not had that experience of meeting those very mature young people, I wonder whether he might sign up to the Lord Speaker’s scheme instantly.

[Viscount Trenchard]

I accept the noble Baroness’s point of view. I understand, and agree with her, that young people today show a much greater level of maturity than they did a decade or two ago. This is a gradual process, which I welcome, and it is right that from time to time we should consider what the age of majority should be. But we should consider it in the round, as it affects the age at which young people should be regarded as full citizens. I also agree with the noble Baroness that it is demeaning to refer to 16 and 17 year-olds as children, so I am with her on very much, but this is not the right time to make a piecemeal change.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I would add a footnote to the important point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. I am afraid that I disagree with the noble Viscount who has just spoken. Perhaps the Scots are getting more than their fair crack of the whip in this debate, so I will be brief. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was right to say that it was the SNP which gave the Scottish 16 and 17 year-olds the vote in the independence referendum. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, was also right, as was the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the door was opened for them by the previous Government. But the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is correct: the 16 and 17 year-olds in Scotland all know that it was Edinburgh which gave them the vote. If the next thing they hear is that London will not give them the vote in the next referendum, it is an amazingly strong court-card to hand to the SNP.