General Dental Council

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 9th December 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and a great pleasure to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). I congratulate him on securing the debate and on bringing to bear his front-line experience of working as a dentist, both in this debate and more generally. He has shown his experience today in getting to the heart of some of the issues he raised, as he has done in many debates in the House on issues relating to health care.

The General Dental Council is an important part of the health care regulatory framework that ensures the fitness to practise of health care professionals and the safety of patients. It is right that we should debate the GDC’s performance, particularly in the light of a less than complementary performance review by the Professional Standards Authority, and given the major rise in the fee that dentists will be expected to pay to their regulator.

My hon. Friend will be aware that the General Dental Council is an independent statutory body that is directly accountable to Parliament. However, as he rightly highlighted, I have no legal basis to intervene in matters such as the level of the fee, which are deemed to be part of the body’s operational running. However, in my role as Minister, I have a keen interest in the performance of the professional regulators and have regular contact with them, including the GDC, on a whole range of issues.

The background to today’s debate is that the General Dental Council recently took the decision to increase the annual registration fee for dentists by 55%, from £576 to £890, which is a significant and unprecedented increase. All professional regulators, including the GDC, are aware of the Government’s position, as set out in our 2011 Command Paper, “Enabling Excellence: Autonomy and Accountability for Health and Social Care Staff”: we do not expect registration fees to increase unless there is a clear and strong case that the increase is essential to ensure the exercise of statutory duties.

While the General Dental Council has consulted its registrants on the proposed fee rise, I am aware of, and sympathetic to, a strong body of opinion among its registrants that they are yet to be presented with compelling evidence to justify such an unprecedented fee increase. The proposed fee is more than double the £390 that the General Medical Council requires licensed doctors to pay. That is why, when I met the GDC, I raised concerns about the fee increase and reconfirmed the Government’s position on the need for a strong and transparent case for any such increase.

I have also strongly suggested to the GDC that it considers a differential rate for newly qualified dentists. Newly qualified doctors are required to pay £185 for their registration with the GMC, while newly qualified dentists pay the same as established dentists. The GDC stated to me as justification for its fee rise that there has been a 110% increase in the number of complaints from patients, employers, other registrants and the police about the dental profession, and that the cost of handling such complaints has been the key driver of the increase. However, I have not been presented with what I consider to be compelling evidence that a fee rise of that magnitude is justified by a 110% increase in the number of complaints.

It is worth noting that other health care regulators, as my hon. Friend suggested, have experienced increases in complaints but have not felt compelled to raise their fees to the same extent. I therefore understand why the British Dental Association has chosen to test this decision and issued judicial review proceedings challenging the setting of the fee. The hearing is set to take place next week, so I am sure that hon. Members will understand that it is inappropriate for me to comment further on those proceedings.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate. I have been written to by Derbyshire county local dental committee, which is concerned that the General Dental Council, under the leadership of its current chair, is investigating much more minor concerns than it did previously. That expansion in its role is one of the reasons why it is now asking dentists for more fees. Will the Minister let us know whether he thinks that the direction that the General Dental Council is taking is the wrong one, as my constituents clearly do?

[Dr Poulter]

As I said, under legislation, I am unfortunately powerless to intervene directly on fee setting. We recognise the independence of health care regulators and would not want them to be micro-managed by Government; that would be wrong. However, my view is very clearly, as I have outlined, that a strong evidence base is needed to justify a fee rise. Given that other health care regulators faced with similar challenges have not raised their fees to the same unprecedented degree, I have not myself been convinced that the evidence base is strong enough to justify this fee rise. I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.

In that context, it is worth drawing attention to the section 60 order currently in progress in the House, and to the consultation process that has been taking place. The fee rise is perhaps all the more surprising as we are making good progress with the GDC on bringing in the legislative changes that will reform the way that it operates. Those changes, in the form of a section 60 order, will assist with reducing its operational costs by an estimated £2 million a year through potential efficiency savings. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley made the point that all regulators need to look at better ways of working and efficiency savings in their own practice. Of course, that, as well as patient protection, is a benefit of introducing a section 60 order: it will help to reduce the running costs, potentially, of the GDC and streamline processes.

The public consultation on the GDC-related section 60 order recently closed, and the vast majority of respondents were supportive of the proposals. We therefore intend to proceed with the measures and will publish our response to the consultation in due course. My hon. Friend may be surprised to learn, as I was, that the GDC did not wait for the outcome of the section 60 order consultation before announcing the fee rise.

The changes proposed in the section 60 order will: enable the GDC to delegate the decision-making functions currently exercised by its investigating committee to officers of the GDC, known as case examiners; enable both case examiners and the investigating committee to address concerns about a registrant’s practice by agreeing undertakings with that registrant, which have the same effect as conditions on practice, without the need for a practice committee hearing; introduce a power to review cases closed following an investigation—rules to be made under that power will provide that a review can be undertaken by the registrar if she considers that the decision is materially flawed, or new information has come to light that might have altered the decision and a review is in the public interest—introduce a power to allow the registrar to decide that a complaint or information received did not amount to an allegation of impairment of fitness to practise; introduce a power to enable the investigating committee and the case examiners to review their determination to issue a warning; and ensure that registrants can be referred to the interim orders committee at any time during the fitness to practise process.

Very similar section 60 orders have been laid before Parliament in conjunction and consultation with other regulators, and a great benefit of those orders is that they are about not just protecting the public but supporting the regulators to have more streamlined processes and reducing costs. Of course, when costs are reduced, we would always expect the savings to be passed on to the people who pay the annual fee.

National Health Service (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Friday 21st November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Clive Efford]

And then led a campaign to stop his local accident and emergency department closing, having done that for the Government.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on his Bill. He also carries the congratulations of 1,924 people from across Chesterfield who have signed a petition asking me to be here to support it. He is not just speaking with people behind him here; people right across the country are saying, “Thank you very much for what you are doing.”

[Clive Efford]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s kind words and for the support of all the thousands of people, particularly health service staff, who have supported the Bill.

Accident and Emergency

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Hon. Members will remember that when the Prime Minister wanted to detoxify the Tory brand, he said that he could spell out his priorities in three letters—NHS—but people in Chesterfield have seen through that cruel joke. Opinion polls show us that the importance of the national health service is going up as the Government’s record is so terribly exposed.

I did a survey across Chesterfield this summer and spoke to people about a range of issues, as I did back in 2009. Back then, satisfaction with the NHS was clear, but now 37% say that GP services have got worse, and just 12% say they have got better. Only 8% say that they think the NHS has got better since 2010; almost 50% think it is getting worse.

I want to focus on the part of the motion that deals with the difficulty of accessing GP services, which is one of the primary causes of those figures. Some 42% of people who appear in A and E have previously attempted to contact GP services. Hon. Members might remember my raising the case of Jemma Hill on 22 October with the Secretary of State. Her GP referred her to a specialist, who recommended hip arthroscopy surgery. She was then told that her clinical commissioning group would not fund the surgery. The Secretary of State promised to look into the matter if I wrote to him. I wrote to him on 23 October but still there is no response. Jemma Hill is still in agony. She sees a fragmented national health service leaving her behind.

The problems in the NHS, and in GP services in particular, are acute in the Staveley area. A recent Care Quality Commission report found that the Rectory Road and Grange health centres failed on five different criteria. I surveyed almost every house in Middlecroft and Inkersall, which are parts of Staveley, and had hundreds of responses. Eighty-six per cent. said that services were unsatisfactory or very poor.

I have here some of the comments of the people who responded. One says, “I don’t bother going to the doctors anymore. I could never get an appointment. I simply self-diagnose on Google.” Someone else said that they are entirely dependent on locums, meaning that when their scans or results come back, the GP is not there. One patient said that a GP broke down in tears in front of them. Another patient said that no one had contacted them after their blood test results. In fact, they should have been urgently sent to hospital—subsequently, they discovered they had cancer.

One person said that they waited eight weeks for a GP appointment. When they eventually got one, they were told that they had a hernia and were sent straight to hospital. Another person waited two weeks for an appointment for a repeat prescription, meaning that they did not have their prescription for more than a week. One 90-year-old said that they had to get a taxi to the surgery and had to queue outside at 8 o’clock in the morning.

I met a partner at that GP surgery and we discussed how it is desperately struggling to recruit people. There is a widespread GP recruitment crisis. I was told that a huge number of GPs have retired, either because they are disillusioned or simply because they want to get out of the service. Forty-three per cent. of GPs told a Pulse survey that they will retire earlier than they had intended because of how disillusioned they are.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) spoke about the massive impact the Government’s cuts to care services have had on A and E, but there is also a huge crisis in general practice. The people of Staveley, and people across the country, do not have proper access to a GP service. The problem is getting worse and it is exacerbating the problem in A and E. The people suffering are not only the brave heroes who work so hard in the national health service, but those in the most deprived communities in our constituencies. It is a disgrace.

Oral Answers to Questions

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)]

I am always happy to meet colleagues for discussions, particularly when they are championing important health care facilities in their local area. I can confirm that the Secretary of State has received a formal referral from South Gloucestershire council in relation to these proposals, and has referred them to the Independent Reconfiguration Panel. He will of course consider the panel’s recommendations before making a final decision, and I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree that it would be inappropriate to pre-empt those deliberations.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

T4. My constituent Jemma Hill is 25 and suffers from chronic hip pain, for which a specialist has recommended hip arthroscopy surgery. However, she has now been told that her local clinical commissioning group does not fund such treatment. Does it not make a mockery of GP-led commissioning when a CCG will not fund the treatment recommended by a specialist to whom the GP referred my constituent in the first place?

[Mr Hunt]

I am very happy to look into that matter, because it sounds like a very deserving case. I will look into the details carefully if the hon. Gentleman gives me the relevant information.

Health and Social Care

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I am pleased that we hit our A and E target in the NHS last year, but disappointed that in Wales, which is controlled by the Labour party, the A and E target has been missed since 2009. Those on the Opposition Front Bench still refuse to condemn that.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress.

Even worse, when signs of how the targets policy was going wrong became clear, Labour’s response was to ignore or cover up the findings.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I thought the new compassionate Conservative party was meant to have stopped “banging on about Europe”—that was the phrase, was it not?—but now its Members are all dancing to UKIP’s tune and reading out what Mr Crosby gives them. It will not wash. The country can see that this is a shambles of a Government who look ridiculous to the country they purport to govern. When Britain needed leadership, it got the farce of this coalition. There is no need to send in the clowns; they are already here.

[Toby Perkins]

Does my right hon. Friend think, like me, that perhaps the Government feel more comfortable exposing their divisions on Europe than facing up to their record on the NHS, which, as many people across the health service recognise, is an absolute disgrace?

[Andy Burnham]

I shall come to that point directly, because the Queen’s Speech is a diversion from the real issues, an attempt to say, “Look over here at this other issue” and divert people’s attention from the chaos the Government have visited on the NHS.

On health and care, our objection is not to the modest measures the Government are proposing. We will of course wait to see the detail, but it sounds as though we will be able to give our support to many of them. Our objection to the Gracious Speech is not to what is in it, but to what is not in it and to the unpleasant political strategy that lies behind it. As a response to the developing crisis in our health and care system, it is inadequate. Worse, however, it tries to disguise that fact by pointing the finger at others. Forget compassionate Conservatism; this is straight back to the dog-whistle tactics—failed tactics, I might add—of the 2005 general election. This is the coded message the Government want the Queen’s Speech to send: “You see all those problems with accident and emergency departments? Well it’s all down to immigration. It’s nothing to do with us.” It is a Crosby-fied Queen’s Speech that is more about positioning and politics than a serious programme for government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Toby Perkins]

The link between health and unemployment was addressed very well, under the previous model of the NHS, by Derbyshire primary care trust, which supported and funded programmes to get the long-term unemployed into work. This does not seem to be happening as much in the restructured NHS. Will my hon. Friend expand on the importance of getting the long-term unemployed into work and the impact that joblessness has on their health?

[Mark Lazarowicz]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Measures to address long-term unemployment and child poverty, to tackle housing inequality and poor housing provision, and to provide more security in jobs and housing and in other ways are some of the biggest things that could have been done to promote health throughout our country.

I wish that Conservative Members who have spoken in the debate on the Queen’s Speech and the debates leading up to it had shown as much concern and passion about these issues as they have with the in-fighting on European issues that has taken up so much of the internal debate within their party. I accept that in the past few hours we have heard mainly constructive and thoughtful speeches on health issues by Conservative Members, but I suspect that that is simply because the ones who are doing the plotting and the in-fighting are doing it elsewhere. It is a pity that more Conservative Members have not paid attention to the issues that the people in our country want addressed—health, employment and housing. In those areas we need a significant change in direction from the Government which the Queen’s Speech did not give us.

East Midlands Ambulance Service

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Mann]

The figures I have presented to the House show this in-built bias against rural and semi-rural areas, and, not least, former mining communities. We have the proposals to close Worksop and Retford ambulance stations and to have one hub in Ashfield’s King’s Mill hospital to serve my population. The population of Bassetlaw will have a parking lot with a potential portakabin under the original proposals.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Was my hon. Friend as surprised as I was to hear that the initial consultation has been replaced by a subsequent one which is suggesting doubling the number of hubs? I welcome the fact that there was some element of listening, but it suggests that the original plans were miles away from what was safe for the people in the east midlands.

[John Mann]

As you might imagine Mr Deputy Speaker, in Bassetlaw we had the biggest response to the consultation, with more than 19,000 people involved directly in the consultation, and we had the largest public meetings. We found one person—I will not name his political party, but he was the campaign organiser for a small party—in favour. All the other 19,000 who signed up were against it—every single person in the public meetings was against it. All the staff were against it—every single one of them. They were all against it because, if the ambulances and the base are shifted out of the area and we have just a parking lot with a portakabin, we will have an even worse second-rate, service in Bassetlaw. The averages will be maintained as the cities get our ambulances and we will not have them, and we will become the bit of the response time that is not met. My constituents will continue to die unnecessarily.

What I want from the East Midlands ambulance service, therefore, is a proper rethink. It is clearly rethinking, but I want to ensure that Worksop and Retford ambulance stations stay open. If they want to juggle the minutiae of where the management is based, I am not worried about that and neither are my constituents, but we want two proper bases. We want the Gainsborough ambulance service maintained to keep accessibility in the north-east part, the rural part, over the border in Lincolnshire. That is what we need if we are to maintain the kind of service that my constituents expect. They pay their taxes. We have our illnesses like everybody else. What is unacceptable to all of my constituents and to me is that former mining areas and rural areas have a worse ambulance provision than the rest of the country. We are not prepared to accept that. East Midlands ambulance service must come back with a proper proposal. In that proposal, Worksop and Retford ambulance stations will need to stay open so that there is a proper base to allow the staff to continue to do their excellent job. I thank the people of Bassetlaw for the way they have responded. They will continue to do so to ensure that we get the service that they deserve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Soubry]

No, the Minister is not saying that she is going to get rid of them; what I am saying is that I take the view—as the hon. Gentleman does—that targets are not particularly improving services. I think there is a case for re-examining targets, and I hope he would join me in saying to the ambulance service, “Let’s look again at these targets in the NHS to see whether they’re doing the job we want them to do,” because it is precisely because of these targets that elderly people in my constituency have been lying on floors for up to four hours while ambulances have to go to meet a target.

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Lady seems to be saying that the ambulance service is so focused on targets that it is incapable of recognising that leaving an old lady lying on the floor for four hours is reprehensible and appalling. She is letting the ambulance service off tremendously lightly to suggest that that is reasonable.

[Anna Soubry]

I am not saying that it is reasonable at all. What I am saying is that this was the system introduced under the last Labour Administration— a Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported. These are the precise consequences of that system; it is the perversion of that system that has led us to a situation in which targets have to be hit. I can assure hon. Members that I explored this matter with Mr Milligan, and an elderly lady lying on the floor with a suspected fractured hip does not fall into the category of an emergency life-threatening situation. These are not definitions imposed by this Government; these are the consequences of the 13 years of the previous Administration. I take the view that the situation needs urgent review, and I will certainly be making that recommendation in the Department that we need to look again at the ambulance service.

Breast Implants

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I hope I did not say what the hon. Gentleman ascribes to me. Some 3,000 women, we think, had PIP implants, and of course, that is only a fraction of the number having breast reconstruction surgery. I think I can offer him reassurance. The MHRA withdrew authorisation in March 2010, and given that there was only one distributor of these implants in this country—Cloverleaf—they will not have been distributed for use after that date.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

A constituent in Chesterfield contacted me who is at her wits’ end. She has been in considerable pain since having a PIP implant fitted, and has been told by the private provider that she will have to pay £3,600 to have it replaced. What more can the Secretary of State do to ensure that her private provider follows the example of the other eight providers that are doing this free of charge? Let us put some pressure on these companies to make sure that all of them do the same as the NHS and replace the products they have fitted.

[Mr Lansley]

I think I have made it clear that not only the Government but, helpfully, the professional associations are looking to give no reason why private providers should not match that standard of care, especially if the implanting surgeons are willing to offer replacement surgery free of surgical charge themselves. It would be very helpful if the hon. Gentleman and other Members gave us details of such cases on behalf of their constituents. Clearly, his constituent will have had that implant before March 2010. The adverse incident centre has had 478 reports of ruptures over the whole period, which extends back many years. One of the things we want to understand as part of our review is why, if there were ruptures and, more to the point, adverse health effects associated with these implants, they were not disclosed to the adverse incident centre. As yet, we have not seen a range of health effects over a period of time that, in themselves, distinguish these implants from other, normal implants.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

In its response to the opportunity provided by Report stage, the Labour party is being not progressive but reactionary, while the trade unions are being misleading in the presentation of their campaign. To be specific, the trade unions and other proxy organisations such as 38 Degrees have gone to some trouble to misrepresent the Bill in order to attack it.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. Does he think that the British Medical Association, too, is misrepresenting the position when it says that even after Report stage there will still be too much emphasis on using market forces to shape health services? Is the BMA misrepresenting the truth as well, or is it just the Labour party?

[Mr Lansley]

I was interested to read this morning a letter whose lead signatory was Hamish Meldrum, the chairman of the BMA council, whom I know well. It was curious because his objection to the Bill, which he wants to be amended, was about the introduction and extension of the role of “any qualified provider”. However, that extension is not in the Bill. It is not occasioned by the Bill; it is a consequence of the way in which commissioners—[Interruption.] No, it does not. If there were no Bill, it would be open to strategic health authorities and primary care trusts to extend “any qualified provider” and patient choice in the NHS to whatever extent they wished. The Bill does not make that happen.

The point is that under the legislation there is a stronger safeguarding process, because the commissioners—

[Toby Perkins]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

I will finish answering the hon. Gentleman before letting him intervene again.

The safeguard structure will be stronger, because commissioners must ensure, for example, that they meet their duty of continuous improvement of quality, their duty of safety and their duty of integration of services and other duties, including a duty to promote patient choice—but of course they have to balance those duties. Whether they extend “any qualified provider” is a matter of judgment. If they took the view that the extension of patient choice would be inimical to the integration of services and the improvement of quality, they would not go ahead with it. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should recall that they have put in an NHS constitutional right for patients to exercise choice, so if the commissioners think it is possible to promote choice and improve quality by extending the any qualified provider remit, they can do it, but the Bill is not what enables it. It is therefore curious that the Bill should be attacked on that basis.

[Toby Perkins]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. That was a very long answer to a short question, but I understand the Secretary of State to be saying that the BMA is wrong and the Labour party is wrong. Everyone I meet in the health service tells me that it is the Secretary of State who has got it wrong. He has come back here once again, confirming that he is not listening to what people are saying to him. He thinks the BMA is misleading people, but is it possible that he is the one who has got it wrong?

[Mr Lansley]

I will give the hon. Gentleman a shorter answer this time: he does not talk to enough people in the NHS.

Let me return to the important point that I was about to make. I was saying that criticism of the Bill has typically developed to the point of literally misrepresenting the facts in order to attack the Bill, as was the case with 38 Degrees. I am indebted to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for sharing with me a letter that he prepared for the better information of his constituents. He looked at the legal opinion obtained by 38 Degrees and concluded that it did not support the views that those behind the 38 Degrees website evidently wished it did.

For example, 38 Degrees claims that the Bill removes the Secretary of State’s duty to provide a comprehensive health service. However, its own legal advice makes it clear that the Secretary of State has never had a duty to provide a comprehensive health service—only a duty to “promote” a comprehensive health service, which is exactly reproduced in clause 1.

Clause 1 also makes it clear that the Secretary of State must secure the provision of that service. The “duty to provide” certain services to which 38 Degrees refers is a duty that I, as Secretary of State, currently delegate to primary care trusts. In future, the Bill will—in exactly the same way—pass that duty of the Secretary of State to the NHS commissioning board and to clinical commissioning groups. In other words, the situation will be legally unchanged. The Secretary of State has a duty, and discharges it through organisations to which he or she delegates that power. Strictly speaking, they have more direct statutory duties, but the duty to provide will not change.

38 Degrees also claims that the Bill opens up the NHS to competition law, but its own legal advice—which it obviously did not like—made it clear that there would be no change between the present competition regime and that which would operate if and when the Bill became law.

I am very grateful to my hon. and learned Friend, whose forensic analysis accords with our own view. The provision, under the Bill, of a comprehensive NHS is watertight, and it is equally clear that the Bill does not change the extent of the application of competition law and EU procurement rules. The 38 Degrees campaign should be seen for the distorting and misleading political propaganda that it is.

Future of the NHS

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am glad to hear that the Secretary of State supports the staff of the NHS, but is it not the truth that the staff of the NHS do not support him?

[Mr Lansley]

That is complete nonsense. This is not about me: it is about what the staff of the NHS want. They want the ability to be able to deliver care for patients without being told what to do by the top-down bureaucracy and targets of the Labour Government. They want the ability to deliver the care that patients need, to join up health and social care and to integrate the pathways of care. Our Bill is about giving them the structure that will allow them to do that. They want every penny that we as taxpayers provide to the NHS to get into the hands of front-line staff, and for the absolute minimum to go in waste and inefficiency. That is what they want, and that is not about me, it is about them.

A stronger NHS will require change, so that it no longer spends £5 billion a year on bureaucracy.

NHS Reform

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We are not only developing communication with GPs in pathfinder consortia, but, more importantly, creating a learning network among GPs in pathfinder consortia, so that these groups across the country will not only learn from each other, but, we hope, arrive at a set of views that help us to design a service that supports them.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State, who tells us how much he studies the NHS, must know that the King’s Fund tells us that under the Labour Government, Britain’s NHS was the most efficient in the entire world. On that basis, a broad coalition of people, including health experts and the Liberal Democrats, is telling him that this policy is wrong. He apparently came here today to tell us why he is right and all those people are wrong. Is this a genuine consultation, or is it just a pause to get through the local elections before he does what he wants to do anyway?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman is wrong on almost every count. We have seen a decade of declining productivity in the NHS. The Office for National Statistics and the National Audit Office set that out recently. We have seen an NHS that, despite record increases in funding, which are welcome, is still not meeting the best European cancer survival rates, as was made clear by the NAO. We need to improve the NHS. The Government are not discounting anybody’s views on how we can best achieve that. In the spirit of continuous improvement in the NHS, there is a spirit of continuously listening about how to make that happen.