Speaker’s Statement

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I will take one more point of order and then I really think we need to move on.

[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are two points in what Mr Speaker just said on which I seek your clarification. First, he implied that the proceedings of the House were manipulated by outside intimidation, with regard given to things said outside on social media and reacted to within the House. Quite an important Rubicon has been crossed, and it may have been crossed without the consent of Members. I would like to know where the processes of the House are likely to go, given the outside influences that may be brought to bear. I would be grateful for some clarification on that.

Secondly, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have the greatest respect for you, but, bluntly, you seem to have rammed through two decisions that were quite important to a lot of Members in which no individual vote will have been recorded. A number of us had thought quite carefully about how we were going to vote in those Divisions. Essentially, we were—forgive me—taken by surprise by those two decisions being rammed through. I wonder if it is possible to either void them or run them again.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The fact is, I put the Question and nobody called against it—[Interruption.] No.

[Hon. Members]

Not true.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was quite clear from the level of noise when the Question was put that the view of the Deputy Speaker was being challenged. I think it is absolutely extraordinary that that noise level was deemed to be “Aye”. It is inconceivable that anybody hearing it would have thought it was “Aye”. It is quite clear from all our Standing Orders and all our traditions that when the Speaker or Deputy’s decision is challenged, it should go to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am extremely sorry. I took it on the voices. I was quite clear where we were. [Interruption.] The whole thing would have been considerably clearer if the Government had not withdrawn at that position.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder if the House has considered how this looks to people outside. It looks like chicanery. I rise to ask a question on behalf of the small parties. What precedent has been set today in the way this Opposition day has been handled? How can we ever have faith in the future that our voices and our votes will actually be heard, or will it always be about the two big parties here?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think that the hon. Lady heard what Mr Speaker said—that he intends to talk with people. I also understand that the—

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Excuse me, I am answering this point of order. The right hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.

I also know that the Chair of the Procedure Committee will look at some of the issues that have been raised, at Mr Speaker’s request.

[Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance on how I can make my views more known to my constituents. I was one of the first Members of Parliament to call for the release of hostages, combined with a permanent ceasefire. I lost my Government job as a result. Because people misrepresented my position, someone suggested on social media that they would show my wife a real man. Someone else suggested that they would attack me and my family. Already today, Labour councillors in my patch are tweeting that I have not supported a ceasefire. I wanted to vote with the Scottish National party motion on a ceasefire. Can you advise me how I can make my constituents clear of my views, given that I was not able to vote?

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think the hon. Gentleman has put his views on the record by what he just said.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will Mr Speaker tell the House how many Labour Opposition day debates have taken place since 7 October in which no motion on a ceasefire was tabled? Why did Mr Speaker think, suddenly today on an SNP Opposition day, that it was really important that a Labour amendment be selected, even though Labour Members had their own chance—several times—to bring forward a debate and a motion on a ceasefire in Gaza?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Mr Speaker has said that he will meet the leaders and the Whips of the parties.

[Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for hearing all our points of order. I cannot be alone in this place today in being utterly embarrassed at how Members have conducted themselves— [Interruption.] Particularly those on the Government Benches—[Interruption.] I continue to be shouted down, which is a perfect example. And this, on an issue as serious as the one we have discussed today.

I am asking for clarification, because people in this Chamber clearly are not aware of the rules and what is going on. One former Leader of the House made a complaint, when he was not even in the Chamber to hear what happened. Madam Deputy Speaker, can you please give us some clarity: had the Conservative Government not withdrawn from the process today, would we have had three votes?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am quite clear that there was the opportunity for three votes.

[Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)]

That’s not true.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman may not know of all the discussions. I was very clear that there was the opportunity for three votes.

I will take one more point of order.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would be grateful if you could provide me with some clarity on two points of procedure, because you are a much more experienced Member of Parliament than me. First, my understanding is that Mr Speaker made his decision earlier today on the basis that there would be three votes rather than two. Once the Government withdrew their amendment and there were two votes rather than three, was the decision to put the Labour amendment before the SNP motion made by you, Madam Deputy Speaker, or Mr Speaker? Secondly, it is routinely the case that if a Division—in this case on whether to sit in private—is completed after 7 o’ clock, as this one did, the motion would fall. Can you explain why it did not?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

First, it is Standing Order No. 31 that ruled on the order in which the votes were to be taken. I said that very clearly in responding to the Leader of the House, who also knew what the order of the votes would be. Also, with reference to it coming after 7, once an amendment is before the House, it has to be decided on. I assure the hon. Lady that, as I know she would expect me to, I did seek proper and thorough advice on both points. I hope that gives her some reassurance, and I hope she accepts that that was the case and that was the advice, because I certainly would not do anything that went against the order that I had said.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I really am going to move on now, I am afraid. [Interruption.] Okay, I will take one more point of order, from Marion Fellows.

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Back in October, as soon as I could after the heinous actions of Hamas, I called for a ceasefire, and I have held firm to my belief since. My constituents have written to me in huge numbers telling me to vote for a ceasefire. I carry five proxy votes, and today I have not been allowed either to vote on my own behalf or to use those five proxy votes that I hold. Let me ask the same question that was asked by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow): how do I ensure that the way I would have voted, which was for a ceasefire, is recorded in the House?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think the hon. Lady has made very clear what she would have done, and I am sure that she and all colleagues here will find ways in which to express that view.