Draft Immigration (European Economic Area Nationals) (EU Exit) Order 2019

Robert Syms Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 General Committees

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

I want to make a few brief comments. The Government’s objective is to prepare for all scenarios. The point of today’s order is to keep people flowing for the job market, for businesses, for education and for all those things, so the order is a good-news piece of delegated legislation. The Minister has already said that it is light touch. We will not have teams of people with batons kicking down doors and kicking people out. It does not matter whether they overstay slightly. What matters in the short term is to have a workable system.

The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill and various laws will come in, and things will slowly start to get a little tighter in due course. Hopefully, we will leave at the end of the month and we need something to get us through. It needs common sense and practicality. [Interruption.] Opposition Members seem to think it is somehow a terrible thing. The Government are trying to be pragmatic, practical, sensible and reasonable. They put information on websites, so it is possible to find out what the situation is. All I am saying is that the measure is light touch to get us over a few months, perhaps a few years, until the proper legislative framework can deal with the new realities. I have confidence that the Minister, the Home Office and the team will be able to work the system.

[Afzal Khan]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that when citizens came from the Commonwealth, it was also light touch? There were no restrictions and they were allowed to come, but we ended up with Windrush.

[Sir Robert Syms]

We set off as an imperial power letting people in with a limited amount of documentation. The same thing happened with British kids who were sent out to Australia because they were in homes in this country. They have the same problem. Immigration policy has generally strengthened over the years and that is why that issue occurred. These days we all have credit cards and phones. We have an audit trail when we move in. It is not beyond the wit of man or woman to find out when someone arrived and when they left. The point is to keep the wheels of commerce, travel, education and everything else turning until the Home Office gets a better system in due course. If you are going to eat an elephant, do you do it one bite at a time?

[Dr Whitford]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Robert Syms]

I will, and then I will sit down and let the Minister reply. The measure is reasonable. Let us chill out. [Interruption.] It will all be fine.

[Dr Whitford]

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that surveillance of people’s credit cards and mobile phones will be the method of monitoring whether they have been here for three months? I think people would not find that very attractive.

[Sir Robert Syms]

Again, the hon. Lady is overreacting. We have smart passport systems. People book with airlines. There are records. If someone is challenged about how long they have been in the country, it is quite easy, if they travelled in on easyJet or British Airways, or if they paid for a ticket with a credit card, for them to say, “I arrived here, and I have been here this long.” We do not need to stamp people’s passports.

But that is not going to be a problem. The draft order is just to get us over a few months or years and to keep the wheels of commerce turning so the British economy grows, tax revenue comes in and we are all happy citizens. The point about having a more robust immigration system is that we do not need to do it on day one; we can work towards it. I would rather have a robust, fair, sensible system, slowly implemented, and just have measures to get us over the immediate problem, than to try to have everything implemented, wham bam, from day one. The Minister’s approach is perfectly reasonable, and I look forward with great joy to hearing what she has to say.

Draft Immigration (Leave to Enter and Remain) (Amendment) Order 2018

Robert Syms Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2019 General Committees

[Caroline Nokes]

The Government consider many factors when looking at which nationalities to open up the use of e-passport gates to. We have consulted very closely with our security partners on this cohort and they are also countries with which we have a long track record of good border co-operation. We will continue to look at the nationalities that can use the gates, and it is absolutely imperative that we look at the impact of the 6.5 million additional passengers. However, it is also important to reflect that we also looked at volumes, and these countries have some of the highest volumes of passengers coming into the UK.

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

May I say what a lovely jacket the Minister is wearing?

I welcome what the Government are doing; it is a great step forward. However, when one comes into Gatwick, for example, with children under 12, that is where the queues tend to be. Will these provisions mean that more people will be redeployed in the summer months to ensure that people who arrive with young children after flights from various holiday destinations are swept through quicker, because enough officers will be available to swipe their passports?

[Caroline Nokes]

I reassure my right hon. Friend—

[Sir Robert Syms]

Not yet.

[Caroline Nokes]

Not yet. He should be, and given his proclivity for complimenting me on my jacket, the sooner the better.

It is absolutely imperative that we use this ability to make sure that eligible passengers are put through e-passport gates. My hon. Friend quite rightly raises the point that children under 12 still cannot use e-passport gates. Part of that is about changing biometrics and facial recognition. I am conscious that biometrics work by correctly identifying somebody from not only the photograph in their passport but the chip into which the photo is embedded. Those particular facial characteristics change in children, so we have no plans to put children through e-passport gates.

The provisions will free up capacity by putting more passengers through e-passport gates. In doing so in time for the summer, which is the peak travel time for families, we are optimistic that we will see an impact on the queues that people experience. Part of our motivation for making this change today is to make sure that things change in time for the summer.

Keeping our border secure remains a top priority. I assure hon. Members that this decision has been taken only after careful consideration and in consultation with security partners across Government. Nationals from Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the USA have been identified as suitable to use the gates based on several factors, including levels of co-operation of those countries with the UK on border matters.

Part of our long-term vision has always been to make better use of digital technology and greater automation to improve the passenger experience while maintaining security. As hon. Members will be aware, we recently published a White Paper setting out detailed plans for the UK’s future skills-based immigration system, which includes measures to strengthen border security and improve journey crossings for legitimate passengers. This expansion of e-gates needs to be seen in the context of a longer-term programme of work, in which we intend to use the UK’s exit from the EU as an opportunity to develop a new global border and immigration system that makes better use of data, biometrics, analytics and automation to improve both security and fluidity across the border.

I reassure the House that this is not a cost-cutting measure—far from it. The Government are increasing Border Force officer numbers, and their powers and responsibilities will remain unchanged. We are committed to ensuring that Border Force has the resources and workforce needed to keep the border secure.

To be clear, the order will allow nationals of Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the United States to be granted leave to enter as visitors for up to six months when they pass through an e-gate at a UK port, including our juxtaposed controls for Eurostar services. Nationals of those countries coming to the UK for other purposes, such as work or study, will also be able to enter using the e-gates, but no change in the law is needed for those circumstances, as they will already hold the necessary leave in the form of a visa or residence permit.

We estimate that up to 6.5 million passengers from those countries will benefit from the change. That expansion in eligibility is therefore a clear signal to the rest of the world that the UK is open for business, and will allow us to control our borders in the UK’s best interests. Once approved, we expect the change to be fully implemented in time for this summer. I commend the order to the Committee.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Robert Syms Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

One of the things we are seeking to do as we leave the European Union is to make sure that we do not have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The way I think we should solve that—I think this is the Government’s position—is to have a free trade agreement. The problem I have is the backstop in the withdrawal agreement.

The Prime Minister was clear that a backstop that treated Northern Ireland differently and put a border in the Irish sea was unacceptable and not something any British Prime Minister could sign off. I am afraid to say that she has done exactly that. I was not 100% convinced of that, based on my own analysis of the withdrawal agreement. I am just a humble accountant, not an expert lawyer. This morning, however, I read the legal advice—the letter from the Attorney General to the Prime Minister about the legal effect of the protocol. Paragraph 7 is plain and clear:

“NI remains in the EU’s Customs Union, and will apply the whole of the EU’s customs acquis, and the Commission and the CJEU will continue to have jurisdiction”

over it, and:

“Goods passing from GB to NI will be subject to a declaration process.”

That means that, if a company in my constituency wins an order with a business in Northern Ireland—in our own country—it will have to have the deal signed off by a British bureaucrat, and if our rules in Great Britain have deviated from those in Northern Ireland, it may be told that it cannot ship that order to a part of our own country. I do not find that acceptable. I think the Prime Minister was right when she said that no UK Prime Minister should sign off such a deal. I still stick to that, which is why I will not be able to support the withdrawal agreement as it is currently set out. This is the first time in my 13 years in this House that I will not be able to support my party. I regret that. I also regret being put in a position where, in order to hold to the promises that we made in our general election manifesto to the people of our country last year, I am forced to vote against a proposition put before this House by my Prime Minister. But I think it is important in politics that we keep our promises because that is how we maintain the trust of the British people. Breaking our promises is not something we should do.

Furthermore, the backstop is also of concern for those who may not be concerned about Northern Ireland because of the indefinite nature of it. The Attorney General set out earlier this week the indefinite nature of the customs union if the backstop is triggered. I fear that that will critically weaken our negotiating position as we negotiate the future trade relationship, which I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) is the thing that is really important. But if we cripple our negotiating position, we will end up with a very bad future relationship, which will stick with us not just for years, but potentially for decades.

The legal advice we have now seen—published this morning—is, again, clear. The Attorney General makes it clear that

“despite statements in the Protocol that it is not intended to be permanent, and the clear intention of the parties that it should be replaced by alternative, permanent arrangements, in international law the Protocol would endure indefinitely until a superseding agreement took its place”.

He also makes it clear that there is no mechanism that will enable us to leave the UK-wide customs union “without a subsequent agreement” and that

“remains the case even if parties are still negotiating many years later, and even if the parties believe that talks have…broken down and there is no prospect of a future relationship agreement.”

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

If in this country somebody had a contract of employment where only one of the parties could end the agreement, or if they had a business contract where only one party could end the agreement, it would be indenture and would be struck down by the British courts, yet we are contemplating an international treaty where that is the case.

[Mr Harper]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. That is not a contract I would be willing to sign and I am afraid that is why I cannot sign up to this withdrawal agreement. It is also the case that the withdrawal agreement will hand over about £39 billion in an unconditional way. I think that most people who carry out negotiations generally do not hand over all the money until they have a deal. We should make the money conditional on both getting a good deal and getting a good deal on a timely basis. If we were to do that, we would get a good deal on a timely basis.

There may be before the House amendments to the motions and extra words may be added to the political declaration, but what we are being asked to vote on is a legally binding treaty—the withdrawal agreement. Unless that is changed, words added to the political declaration and any extra words on the motions before this House are legally meaningless. I do not think they are capable of persuading colleagues who are concerned about the withdrawal agreement that they have significantly changed the position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

This will surprise you, Mr Speaker: I am old enough to have voted in the 1975 referendum, and I voted yes to stay in the common market. But what I voted for then changed rather substantially over the years, and I became somewhat concerned about the way the EU had developed. When it came to the last referendum, I was for leave—on balance, but I think that was the right decision. The truth of the matter is that it was not to do with what was on the side of a bus, but that most of our citizens have had to live with the EU over several decades. There was just that general feeling that the EU was not very responsive to their needs. The British people have a certain native common sense that tells us that we could do better on our own. Compared with the 1970s, when Britain was a rather depressing place, Britain is doing really well in the world, and it has been doing over the past 20 years. The reality is that it was a vote of confidence in this country from the British people. We can do a lot better. We can be an open, flexible, dynamic economy in the world.

Leaving the EU was always going to be a messy business, because any kind of divorce is, and there are compromises to be made. I give credit to the Prime Minister for the work that she and the negotiators have done. It is a difficult job and probably a thankless one, and it will be even more thankless next Tuesday when we get the House’s decision. There are some good things in the agreement and I could agree with a lot of it as a compromise to see us out of the EU, but as a Conservative Unionist, I find the Irish backstop very difficult to deal with.

I do not want to treat any area of the United Kingdom differently from my own constituency. There is a danger of our getting hung up in that arrangement. The advice of the Attorney General is very clear. The Prime Minister needs to go back to the EU and say, “Deal on providing that we have a date to the backstop.” If there is a date, many people’s fears about our getting hung up in the arrangement and not being able to do deals would disappear. We have already heard that there is no intent either north or south of the border to establish a hard border. My fear is that the backstop will be used as a device during the negotiations over trade and over fish—as President Macron has already said—to screw the British down and give us a bad deal.

[Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con)]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Given that he supported the Common Market, does he accept that there may be an alternative, such as an EEA-EFTA style deal, that would give us back the fisheries, remove the need for the backstop and provide the kind of reassurance that he seeks?

[Sir Robert Syms]

It would not be my favourite choice, but it may well be a choice that the House will have to consider depending on how we end up next year.

The reality is that I hope we can finesse the current agreement. Ultimately, the EU must accept that the backstop is unacceptable to Parliament. If it accepts that, there is a fairly good chance that the deal will go through. The deal, without the backstop, might be rather better than the EFTA proposals. We will have to see how the Prime Minister does. When there has been to-ing and fro-ing between member Governments of the EU, referendums and agreements, it is not unheard of for Governments to go back to the EU and say, “Our people will not wear it, think again.” It would take only some very modest changes to get the deal done. I hope that the Prime Minister listens to what the House says next Tuesday. I am afraid that I will be voting against the deal in its current form, but I will be receptive to modification of the backstop and then I hope that we will be in a position in which we can move on.

I am unhappy about voting against my Government. I have been a Member of Parliament for more than 20 years. Since coming into government in 2010, I have voted against the Government only once. This will be the second time. I hope that I never have to do it again because I believe that politics is a team game and I want my team to win and I want the Prime Minister to do the best for our nation. Unfortunately, though, I am a Conservative and Unionist and the backstop is something that I cannot accept.

Immigration: DNA Tests

Robert Syms Excerpts

1st reading: House of Commons
Thursday 25th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

First of all, the hon. Gentleman refers to DNA testing with regard to the immigration system being overused. I would just caution him. As I said in my statement, more work needs to be done to see how widespread what should not have happened, the mandatory use, was. In many cases, it is voluntary. I hope the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that it should not even be allowed in voluntary cases. [Interruption.] No, he is not. Clearly, where an individual feels it would help their application, I think it is right and proper that the Home Office takes that into account. But let me be clear: where it has been mandatory that it is not acceptable. That should not have happened.

The hon. Gentleman asked about other parts of Government, in particular the Department for Work and Pensions, and, where there is voluntary testing, whether it can be used between Departments. I am happy to take that to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, and I will make sure that the hon. Gentleman gets a response on that.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the funding of DNA tests and whether there is help with funding. The key point is that if a DNA test is funded by the Government, for whatever circumstances, it should only be in a case where it is voluntary, not mandatory.

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

I thank the Home Secretary for rapidly coming to the House and giving us this statement, which sets out a clear plan of action for how to deal with what may arise. The immigration system is highly complex. I look forward to the Government, when they come forward with the immigration Bill, setting out something new, transparent and workable, and which, with sufficient training, will keep our borders safe.

[Sajid Javid]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He is absolutely right to point out that the immigration system is highly complex. We have seen evidence today of where it can sometimes go wrong. We should not let that take away from the fact that it successfully processes tens of thousands of applications each year, with lots of hardworking people in the Home Office doing a stellar job. When it goes wrong, however, we need to react. He is right to link this with the new immigration system, which we will introduce after we leave the EU. This is a further lesson on how we can simplify it, maintaining control while also making it fairer and more compassionate.

Immigration White Paper

Robert Syms Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Nokes]

What is crucial is that, as my predecessor as Immigration Minister did, I continue to consult businesses and universities to make sure that their views are fed into the process. Likewise, the Migration Advisory Committee is consulting businesses because it is so important that their views are fed into the process and that the Government can use the response of economic experts to enable us to determine the best policy going forward.

[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

I commend the Home Office for the careful and considered way it is dealing with this important Bill. It is listening to business and the experts and waiting for some further negotiation, before introducing a Bill that will be fit for purpose for this country for the next 10 or 20 years.

[Caroline Nokes]

Of course, what we are seeking to do is to have evidence-led policy making.