Harassment in Public Life

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

That is a very interesting point. I believe that the coarsening of debate in the political environment has led to the acceleration of this, and I will certainly pass on that point to the Department for Education.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am beginning to think that it is almost impossible to mix politics with Facebook and Twitter. These platforms are just made for anonymous abuse, and they do not contribute to modern civilisation. They encourage people to instant outrage, because they have to react immediately, without any pause for reflective thought. There is just an automatic direction towards abusing somebody, rather than towards debating, discussing and, importantly, listening because these platforms are for the transmission not the receipt of ideas. To my mind, they do not enhance our democracy in any way at national level, but also, importantly, they do not do so in relation to local councillors at local level.

[Amber Rudd]

My hon. Friend makes such an important point. That is largely, but not exclusively, where a lot of the hate comes from. For my own part, I no longer look at my Twitter timeline, but I know that plenty of people, particularly younger people, live online and they should not be put off coming into public life because they would then be expected not to engage on Facebook or Twitter. We must have an environment in which such people can continue to engage in their normal communications and go into public life if they choose to do so.

Online Hate Speech

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 30th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

I would simply repeat that we have not yet made the arrangements for the visit, but the invitation has been extended and it has been accepted.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Politics and Twitter are a toxic mix. For politicians, tweeting encourages the transmission of half-formed ideas instead of listening to the developed arguments of others. It promotes a culture of instant reaction as opposed to considered thought, and it provokes people to immediate outrage instead of pauseful reflection. Can my right hon. Friend tell the House how politicians taking to Twitter has led to an improvement in modern civilisation?

[Amber Rudd]

I think that is slightly beyond my capacity today. My hon. Friend is right in so far as I think that many of us could benefit from a little more considered thought and pauseful contemplation before we press reply to Twitter attacks.

Independent Review: Deaths in Police Custody

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I thank the shadow Home Secretary for her constructive approach and for putting me on notice that she is going to hold my feet to the fire—I welcome that, because she has worked with victims of these tragedies. Together with the Home Secretary, I have met some of the families, and their accounts are overwhelming in terms of what they have had to endure, not just with the original loss, but the journey from that point. It has been absolutely unacceptable and the report is devastating, because it is a story of system failure and human failure going back over many, many years. This was recognised by the current Prime Minister and she was absolutely right to commission this report, and it is our responsibility now, after all these years of failure, to tackle this and do something right for families in the future—I am absolutely committed to that.

We did take some time to publish this review, because it is a very comprehensive review, with more than 100 recommendations that needed to be looked at seriously and worked through properly. It is a cross-government response, and I hope the shadow Minister will see it as substantive. On the accountability of police, yes, the families are very clear about that; they have worked and had to endure journeys of nine years to get nowhere in terms of a conclusion, and that is unacceptable.

I beg to differ a little on the point the shadow Home Secretary made about black and minority ethnic people being more likely to die in police custody; that is not what is suggested by the data I have seen, which is that the proportion of black people who die in police custody is lower than the proportion arrested. I believe the Independent Police Complaints Commission has published results of a 10-year study that bears that out, but I am more than happy to discuss this with her personally. But the most important point is that this report has to be a catalyst for change, and I hope that on both sides of the House we work together to make sure that finally happens.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I applaud my hon. Friend’s statement. He is clearly a man on top of his brief. As someone who has had the privilege to serve as a special constable in the past and who spent 25 days with Northamptonshire police under the police parliamentary scheme, may I say that we should applaud the work of the vast majority of custody sergeants up and down the land who take their job incredibly seriously and serve thousands of prisoners well each and every year?

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, drawing on his own experience. As I said in my statement, on every day in every force, the vast majority of the work that the police do is absolutely fantastic and is conducted to the highest levels of integrity and professionalism. Nevertheless, when things go wrong—and they do go wrong—we have to get to the truth and there has to be accountability. The report demonstrates that in the past the journey has been too difficult, there has been too much defensiveness and there has not been a strong enough feeling that the system is on the side of the families and the victims. That is what we have to change.

English Language Teaching: Refugees

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. This hour-long debate will finish by 5.30 pm, and Dame Caroline has the opportunity to sum up the debate as the last speaker. I am obliged to call the Front-Bench spokespeople before then. The guideline limit is five minutes for the Scottish National party, five minutes for Her Majesty’s Opposition and 10 minutes for the Minister. That means that I have to call the Front-Bench speakers no later than seven minutes past five, which gives the two Back-Bench speakers, if they are fair to each other, 10 minutes each. That is not a formal time limit, but if you both want the full time, it is 10 minutes each. It is going to be ladies first. I call Alison Thewliss.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Blomfield]

I could not agree more with the right hon. Lady on that—as indeed on many other things. The importance that she places on integration and effective community cohesion is endorsed by Dame Louise Casey in the review that she is conducting on behalf of the Government. That enables refugees not only to integrate but, through integration, to become valued members of our society and to make a real contribution to it. We are talking about people who in many cases bring many skills and have much to contribute to our country. Learning English is the key to releasing that potential, for them and for those of us in the host communities.

The Government recognise the importance of that. In September 2016, when they put £10 million into ESOL teaching for newly arrived Syrian refugees—as the right hon. Member for Meriden mentioned—the then Minister, the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), said it was

“to help refugees learn English and integrate into British society”.

Furthermore, as the right hon. Lady and her colleague, the right hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), pointed out in an excellent piece in The Times today, the Prime Minister in her first year as Home Secretary said:

“We know that speaking English is key to integration.”

Why the need for this debate if there is so much cross-party consensus? I think it comes down to a question of funding, although not simply funding. Refugee Action concluded last year in its report, “Let Refugees Learn”, that funding reductions

“have resulted in shortages of provision.”

However, the fragmentation of provision and the lack of a clear strategy also limited opportunities.

The right hon. Member for Meriden was right to highlight and to welcome those pockets of money that have been made available to support ESOL teaching. In July 2015, however, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills cut £45 million from 47 colleges that taught 47,000 students, and between 2009-10 and 2015-16 the Department for Education cut £113 million from ESOL funding.

Although I accept the right hon. Lady’s point about refugees’ entitlement to funding, asylum seekers are not eligible for free tuition from statutory sources. Free classes are informal and, as the brilliant community project in my constituency, Learn for Life Enterprise, has found, greatly over-subscribed. There is a real patchwork of local provision. The report by Refugee Action revealed that 45% of prospective ESOL learners have to wait an average of six months or more to access classes, and that there have been cases of people waiting up to three years. It found a waiting list of more than 6,000 people across 71 providers. A further problem, which the right hon. Lady highlighted, is the lack of childcare provision, which affects women in particular.

The report also found that the different strands of ESOL funding are disjointed. The right hon. Lady acknowledged that there are different practices in the different nations that make up the UK. England is lagging behind Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and even Manchester—if it can lag behind a city. They have all developed strategies for ESOL teaching. We need a strategy that will ensure that all refugees receive free and accessible ESOL provision. Analysis by Refugee Action indicates that two years’ provision would cost £3,200 per refugee, which is a relatively small price to pay for the benefits that they and we will receive from that investment.

The lack of a coherent national strategy and the underfunding fail the refugees who come here to rebuild their lives, and as I said, it is an incredible waste for us as a country to fail to give them the opportunity to fulfil their potential. I hope that the Minister will indicate whether the Government’s response to the Casey review will address the lack of a national strategy for English language teaching, as well as the underfunding. The response should not simply focus narrowly on tackling extremism but recognise the necessity of ESOL provision for integration, for tackling isolation and for unlocking the potential of those who come here to contribute to our communities.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

We now come to the first of the five-minute Opposition Front-Bench speeches. I call Stuart C. McDonald for the Scottish National party.

--- Later in debate ---

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Let me start, as others did, by thanking the right hon. Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) for securing this debate and for her powerful points about why this issue is important and about the obstacles that we face.

I also want to acknowledge the many other Members who have contributed to the debate. Everyone seemed to make similar points; we seem to be on the same page. Members mentioned the impact on children of their parents not speaking the language and the importance of language training so that people are not isolated. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the lack of a national strategy. I hope that we will hear a bit more about that.

Speaking English is one of the first and most important steps to integration for a refugee. Apart from the Casey review, the all-party parliamentary group on social integration, the all-party parliamentary group on refugees and a report by Refugee Action have all demonstrated the importance of ESOL courses and the vital need for investment. Learning English is a gateway to work, study and getting to know your neighbours. It is also instrumental to refugees’ mental health, staving off isolation and loneliness. The vast majority of refugees want to learn English and in theory they are eligible for fully funded ESOL classes. However, the reality is not matching up to the theory. As we have heard before, there are long waiting lists—in some cases three years long—and many refugees cannot access the classes they are entitled to.

The Casey review identified some of the difficulties faced by women from minority backgrounds in accessing English language courses. This is another point that has been highlighted. Three quarters of ESOL providers have either no provision for childcare or not enough for the needs of most learners, which disproportionately affects women’s ability to attend classes. The overwhelming message is that is a lack of funding is the biggest issue for ESOL providers. Two thirds of providers told Refugee Action that an increase in Government funding is the one thing that would most improve their ability to provide a high standard and quantity of ESOL classes.

The Conservative Government’s actions have been a classic case of rhetoric not lining up with reality. At the same time as the former Prime Minister was calling for migrants to learn English, the Government were cutting funding for courses. From 2009 to 2016, funding for ESOL classes dropped from £203 million to only £92.5 million: a 60% cut. Where we have seen extra funding, it has been tiny compared with the cuts that ESOL has already faced. The extra £10 million over five years for ESOL provision announced in 2016 was to be used only for Syrian refugees resettled through the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme. While that was welcome, why are the Government seemingly only interested in integrating one group?

When David Cameron announced £20 million for Muslim women to learn English, his announcement had the potential to do more harm than good. By tying language classes for Muslim women to the fight against radicalisation, the Government’s clumsy, simplistic approach managed to stigmatise a whole community rather than encourage integration. It was also of no benefit to refugees. The Government say that they value and promote integration, while at the same time slashing funding to one of the most important branches of it.

What should we do? A Labour Government would make further education courses free at the point of use, including ESOL courses. As we do not have a Labour Government, Members in the Chamber have made a strong case for specific investment in ESOL classes for refugees. As the Minister considers his response to the Casey review, I urge him to invest in ESOL funding for refugees, to ensure that women have equal access to classes, and to let the Government’s actions live up to the rhetoric they have been peddling for years.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

If the Minister would be kind enough to conclude his remarks no later than 5.27 pm, that will give Dame Caroline enough time to sum up the debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

Let me respectfully observe to the right hon. Gentleman that, having spoken to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner very recently, I know that there is no change in the operating model of the Metropolitan police. They will continue to triage crimes as they arrive in the appropriate way, to ensure that they always prioritise the most important. Conservative Members will always be on the side of the victims, and will always ensure that the police have the right resources to address crime.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Northamptonshire has 1,242 police officers, 488 specials, 860 police staff and 95 police community support officers. Will the Home Secretary congratulate Northamptonshire police on starting a drive to recruit even more police officers this year?

[Amber Rudd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question and will of course join him in congratulating Northamptonshire police. I should add that his force is not the only one increasing recruitment and the number of crimes it is solving. Sometimes, listening to Opposition Members, one could think that the police were not doing the fantastic duty that they are; I urge Opposition Members to take the time sometimes to congratulate them on the phenomenal job they do.

Police Pay and Funding

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

What a delicious choice. I call Mr Philip Hollobone.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am sure that residents in Kettering will welcome this pay rise for the police, not least because every single police officer I have ever met always works more hours than their shift requires. But may I join calls for changes to the national police funding formula? Counties such as Northamptonshire are clearly underfunded relative to their peers.

[Sarah Newton]

I thank my hon. Friend for standing up passionately, over a long period, for his local police officers and insisting that they receive a fair allocation of resources. I am sure that when the Home Secretary is looking at police allocations, she will bear that very much in mind. I want to take the opportunity to say that the Policing Minister is engaging with chief constables and police and crime commissioners all over the country to understand the nature of policing and the way in which it is changing, so that remuneration can properly reflect modern policing in the 21st century.

Northamptonshire: Combined Fire and Police Service

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of a combined fire and police service in Northamptonshire.

I welcome you to the Chair, Ms Ryan, and I welcome the Minister to his place. I thank Mr Speaker for giving me the honour of having this debate on an important issue for my constituents in Kettering and for everyone across the county of Northamptonshire.

The title of the debate is not very accurate, which is probably my fault, because we are actually talking not about a combined fire and police service but about the combined governance of the fire and police services in Northamptonshire. In my more optimistic moments, however, I hope that one day we will have a fully combined fire and police service, and I urge the Minister to consider that.

To set the context for any constituents who in a weak moment might have tuned into today’s proceedings, Northamptonshire is a county of more than 720,000 people, with a single police force and a single fire and rescue service, which have coterminous boundaries—that in itself is helpful when thinking about joining the two together. The picture for policing and for fire and rescue is changing, and has changed rapidly in the past decade.

For fire and rescue, demand for fire-related emergencies has reduced by 50% in Northamptonshire, compared with a national decline of some 40%. Fire and rescue has had to diversify into more proactive activities and now provides a first response and co-response service to medical emergencies with East Midlands ambulance service. On a recent visit to the fire and rescue service in Northamptonshire, I was amazed and pleasantly surprised to learn that 60% of its calls are now for medical emergencies, so the emphasis is very much on rescue as opposed to fire.

I ought to say that the reason I attended the fire and rescue service is that I have taken part in the fire service parliamentary scheme. I spent one year with the London fire brigade, and the second year with the Northamptonshire fire and rescue service. I also completed two years with the police service parliamentary scheme—with the Northamptonshire police force some years ago—and I have also been a special constable with British Transport police. I placed a great deal of emphasis on talking to individual police officers and fire and rescue officers to find out what life is really like for them at an operational level.

I want to place on record my thanks to all the wonderful police and fire and rescue staff we have in Northamptonshire. We are truly blessed as a county to have so many individuals of such dedication, resolution and resolve, who day in, day out and week in, week out are prepared to serve the local public as best they can.

The Northamptonshire police force has a budget of £116 million, 1,242 officers, 95 police community support officers, 860 police staff, 488 specials and 84 volunteers, and operates off 38 sites. Northamptonshire fire and rescue service has a budget of £24 million, 242 whole-time firefighters, 254 retained firefighters and 74 support staff, and operates off 24 sites. In terms of the scale of the operations, they are therefore quite different, but police officers and firefighters attend many of the same incidents.

In southern Northamptonshire, indeed, we now have two rural intervention vehicles, or RIVs, which on one side are badged with the Northamptonshire police livery of blue, yellow and white, and on the other side are badged with the fire and rescue service livery of yellow, red and white. On one side of the vehicle is a police officer and on the other a firefighter. They go around the rural parts of the county in response to call-outs. It an incredibly efficient way to manage policing and firefighting resources. That is evidence of something I know the Minister will appreciate—the boys and girls in the service getting on with mixing up their operations to increase local efficiency, regardless of what happens with governance at the senior level. On the ground, individual police officers and firefighters are already operating jointly in many cases.

I back 100% the business case presented to the Minister by Stephen Mold, the police and crime commissioner for Northamptonshire, for him to become the police, fire and crime commissioner for Northamptonshire.

[Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

I am very pleased that the Northamptonshire police and crime commissioner has taken the opportunity to look at the governance model and to consider becoming a police, fire and crime commissioner. Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming the news that that is happening in Staffordshire too? The consultation has recently been completed. The police and crime commissioner taking the fire authority into his role would enable greater collaboration and joint working.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am delighted to hear that positive news from Staffordshire. My hon. Friend is developing a well-deserved reputation for being thoroughly on top of local issues in her constituency. I join her in welcoming the news from Staffordshire. I believe that seven police and crime commissioners are now actively consulting on taking over fire service responsibilities. I very much hope that they all succeed. I would like Northamptonshire, Staffordshire and the five others to be successful role models for authorities around the country, because it makes huge sense to me that delivery of emergency services should be as joined up as possible.

My understanding is that under the Police and Crime Act 2017, which my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Amanda Milling), the Minister and I supported, four options were given to police and crime commissioners and the local fire and rescue authorities. Option 1 was a duty to collaborate, but with no change in governance; option 2 was for the police and crime commissioner to take a place on the fire and rescue authority; option 3 was for the police and crime commissioner to become the fire commissioner as well; and option 4 was to combine the services.

Ultimately, I hope that option 4 is delivered in Northamptonshire, but I fully recognise that option 3 is the right place to be at the moment. Operationally, the police service and the fire and rescue service will be two different organisations, but the police, fire and crime commissioner will be the head of both. Although structurally separate organisations below the commissioner, on the ground police officers and firefighters are increasingly working together already. Indeed, I think there are now three fire/police/ambulance stations in Northamptonshire. At Rushden, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), there is certainly an all-singing, all-dancing police, fire and ambulance station with all three services together. I think the same is true at Thrapston.

I do not see why we should not be really ambitious. Ultimately, I would like to see a Northamptonshire-wide police, fire and ambulance service dedicated to Northamptonshire. I do not see why East Midlands ambulance service needs to provide ambulance services to Northamptonshire; the police, fire and crime commissioner would be well able to run ambulance services locally. I invite the Minister to come to Northamptonshire if he ever would like to pilot such an initiative, because I think we could persuade the police and crime commissioner that that might be a good idea, especially since 60% of calls to the fire service are already for medical emergencies.

Both services will remain operationally distinct, but joint working is increasing. That does not mean that police officers will put out fires, and it does not mean that firefighters will have the power of arrest; it just means that they will work sensibly together. This is not a police takeover of the fire service or a merger of the two; it is just a shared governance structure that should lead to sensible joint decisions. If this move is approved by the Minister, it will accelerate collaboration and better protect the frontline than the existing model. At the moment, the fire service is part of Northamptonshire County Council. With the best will in the world, any fire and rescue authority in a county council structure will not get the funding certainty that can be provided by governance by a separate police, fire and crime commissioner.

[Amanda Milling]

I am grateful for the opportunity to intervene again. Does my hon. Friend agree that having a police, fire and crime commissioner would improve the democratic accountability of the fire service? Councillors are appointed to the fire authority, but they are not electorally accountable to the public.

[Mr Hollobone]

My hon. Friend demonstrates once again that she has a wise head on young shoulders. That is the same as the argument in favour of police commissioners. Who knew who the members of the local police authority were? No one did. Sometimes, even members of the police authority did not know who the other members were. The same is true of the fire and rescue authority. Accountability and transparency, along with more funding security and certainty, are big drivers behind the proposal.

I am pleased that people in Northamptonshire basically agree. Some 1,200 people responded to the police commissioner’s consultation. Some 61% of them, and 92% of people working in the fire and rescue service, are in favour of the proposals, which they know will deliver efficiency, effectiveness, economy and improvements in public safety because of increased funding certainty. Those are impressive results—they certainly impressed me, and I hope that they will impress the Minister.

The business case is now on the Minister’s desk; it requires his signature for the proposals to be moved forward. If it gets his signature, in his distinguished hand, the change could come into effect from April 2018. I urge him to study the case and approve it. Northamptonshire has demonstrated that police officers and firefighters are getting together on the ground to deliver sensible joint working, and the governance structure is now catching up with that. If we can get Home Office approval, we can move on over time—not too long, I hope—to stage 4, which is combining the services. Crucially, the proposed change should not lead to increased costs for the taxpayer, because the money that is now given to the county council to fund the fire and rescue service will be given to the police, fire and crime commissioner, but there will be a separate line on people’s council tax bills for the fire authority precept, which will improve transparency and accountability.

Thank you for your patience with me, Ms Ryan. I hope that I have outlined my 100% support for these proposals. The Minister is diligent, assiduous and very much on top of his game, and I know that he will take the proposals seriously. If he agrees with the police and crime commissioner and approves the business case, we in Northamptonshire are up for the challenge of delivering the country’s best combined police and fire service.

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan, I think for the first time, and to respond to this welcome and timely debate, which my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) secured. We came into the House in the same year—back in 2005—and since then he has been a tireless champion of the interests of the people of Kettering. I was therefore delighted to hear him express his 100% support for police and crime commissioner Mold’s proposals, and I heard him urging me to go even further in terms of ambition. It is typical of him that, to get insight into the operating reality of the people serving his constituents, he invested time in the parliamentary fire and police schemes and was himself a special constable, and I congratulate him on that.

I note the presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer), who is presumably here to support my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering in registering what appears to be a consensus across Northamptonshire and clear popular support for this initiative, which to some degree, as he noted, reflects the reality on the ground. Northamptonshire is well known to be in the vanguard of collaboration between the emergency services, and I place on the record my congratulations and respect for everyone involved in the leadership that has been shown there. The debate is very welcome.

I can give my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering immediate reassurance about the Government’s support for the principle of enabling police and crime commissioners to have greater involvement in fire governance. That goes beyond words: we have already approved the first proposal, from Roger Hirst in Essex. We are encouraged to see that about a dozen areas, including Staffordshire—I very much welcome the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Amanda Milling)—have responded to the legislation that enables that greater involvement and are actively developing proposals to take on governance for fire and rescue. As I said, I am particularly pleased to see areas such as Northamptonshire leading the way.

As we MPs all know, the reality is that our public services—particularly our emergency services, which do an incredible job—responded impressively to pressure to control costs and find savings. Many of them have embraced collaboration, which is easy to talk about but quite difficult to do in practice. We are keen to encourage leadership to go even further in that direction, not just in the interests of using taxpayers’ money better and finding efficiencies, but to deliver a better service to the people we serve.

In that context, I pay tribute to police and crime commissioner Mold and his team for the hard work that they put into developing the proposal that gave rise to this debate. Indeed, they worked at such pace that they have already submitted the proposal. I must correct something that my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering said: the proposal is not actually sitting on my desk; it is sitting in the bowels of the Home Office being processed by officials, because it has only just come in. It will come to me, I will take a view, and it will go to the Home Secretary. That is the process. That means that I am a bit restricted in what I can say about the detailed business case, because I have not seen it. However, I will see it and we will test it robustly, not least because my hon. Friend will want the reassurance that I want that it is sensibly rooted in good economics, will result in a better service for his constituents and will leave Northamptonshire County Council with a solid financial base. The statute requires us to make various tests of the business case, which is in the system and will be processed as quickly as possible. I am a bit restricted in what I can say, but I absolutely note his message to get on with it.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am sure the Minister will welcome the fact that Northamptonshire County Council, unlike some county authorities, supports the case. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet in Northamptonshire, if that gives him any encouragement.

[Mr Hurd]

I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because he makes an important point. As I have said, this is easy to talk about, but difficult to do. In particular, some of the work, which he talked about, that the county council has to do with the police and crime commissioner on data is complicated. He is quite right that some county councils have set their face against these changes, so I place on record my respect and thanks to Northamptonshire County Council for the leadership it has shown in fully co-operating with this complex task.

By way of conclusion, I would like to draw out a couple of key themes. First, I join my hon. Friend in placing on record my personal thanks and the Government’s thanks for the hard work and the service that the police and fire officers in Northamptonshire and across the country perform on our behalf. He is right that there are operational aspects to emergency response that are common to police, fire and ambulance, so it must make sense to explore where those services can be more effectively joined up to maximise capability, resilience and everything he talked about in his remarks. There are some fantastic examples of collaboration out there, including joint control rooms, multi-agency intervention teams and joint prevention and support capability. The Government have invested more than £88 million since 2013 in local blue light collaboration projects. We are not just sitting here, saying, “Get on with it.” We are actively trying to provide support, such as initiatives in Northamptonshire that include £4.5 million for police innovation and £3 million for fire transformation.

[Mr Charles Walker in the Chair]

[Mr Hollobone]

I get the sense that we are perhaps not in danger of going over the time limit, so I want to intervene again and say that we are blessed in Northamptonshire with two outstanding senior officers. The chief constable of Northamptonshire, Simon Edens, is fantastic. He is down-to-earth and hands-on, and he knows all his officers. Likewise, the chief fire officer, Darren Dovey, has years of experience and knows all the boys and girls in the fire service. The two are determined to work together operationally to make things work, whatever the governance structure will be. The changes to the governance structure will help them to do what they are already doing.

[Mr Hurd]

I am sure that my hon. Friend’s intervention will be noted by both those officers. In this place, we perhaps do not do enough to celebrate and recognise individuals who do outstanding work in public service. In the course of my process of engaging with police officers, I have spoken to the police chief on the phone, and I very much look forward to visiting Northamptonshire and meeting him and the fire chief in person, not least because it is clear that Northamptonshire has been at the forefront of many collaboration initiatives, including estates co-location, interoperability and joint community prevention work, as my hon. Friend brought to life in his speech. Frankly, I am very encouraged that PCC Mold has made collaboration and emergency services integration a running theme in his police and crime plan, for which he is accountable. His conviction about the benefits of service transformation is evident and encouraging.

While we know that good work is going on in some local areas, it is fair to say that nationally the picture remains a bit patchy, as my hon. Friend alluded to, and more can be done. In some ways, the pace and ambition with which policing has been transformed since 2010—it is much to the credit of police leadership across the country—can serve as a model for the changes we want to see in fire. With the Home Office now responsible for this area, we are able to support what we hope to see as the continuous improvement of fire and rescue services, enabling them to be more accountable, effective and professional than ever before. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase pointed out the important scope in the governance reforms to introduce much greater transparency and accountability, not least around funding streams into fire services, which the public we serve are obviously going to be increasingly interested in post-Grenfell.

To support the fire service along this journey, we are establishing an independent inspection regime for fire and rescue to be delivered by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services. There is consensus about the need for that. We are also making progress in setting up a professional standards body for fire. However, we want the bulk of the fire reform programme to be owned and delivered by the service itself. For example, we want the fire service to get better deals when buying equipment. There is still a lot of scope to improve that area, and we believe that a true commercial transformation and radical improvement to procurement processes are needed. We also want the service to look at workforce reform, increasing diversity and more flexibility in terms and conditions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering made a very good point about how the police and crime commissioners have developed in the consciousness of the public. The system we had before was sub-optimal in terms of public accountability. Police and crime commissioners were a bold reform that is beginning to develop momentum, thanks not least to the individuals involved, such as PCC Mold, who has shown great leadership since his election. That includes action on cyber-security, domestic violence and children and young people’s safety. Such examples convince us that PCCs are ideally placed to support emergency services collaboration and the fire reform agenda. In bringing together local police and fire under a single leadership, we hope to see PCCs driving through transformation that truly delivers for local people. We expect to see improved visibility and transparency, direct accountability to the electorate and a renewed impulse to police and fire collaboration, which my hon. Friend is calling for. That is why we want PCCs to explore the opportunity.

A transfer of fire and rescue governance is not the only option for involving PCCs. As my hon. Friend mentioned, they can request a seat on their local fire and rescue authority, which can come with full voting rights, subject to local agreement. There are options, but I am clear that where PCCs are up for the governance option, are convinced that they have a strong business case, feel that they have the public on their side and, ideally, have the local authority on their side as well, they will have our support, subject to the rigour and robustness of the business case. It is up to local areas to decide what arrangements will work best for them. That is why the Government chose not to mandate the involvement of PCCs in fire governance.

Successful transformation has to involve local people and key stakeholders, and that is exactly what has happened in Northamptonshire. We want everyone to get behind the changes and what they hope to achieve, so that we can really see the benefits of improved accountability and greater collaboration. That is why we have encouraged early dialogue with local communities, local leaders and fire and rescue staff about the future they see for their fire and rescue services. Northamptonshire has shown that a constructive dialogue between PCCs and partners, including the county council, is possible, and I strongly urge other areas to follow that model and leadership.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response, but I am going to press him into an area that is a little off-piste and where he might be a little uncomfortable. Would he welcome innovative proposals that came forward from a county, such as Northamptonshire, to go for the full Monty: to combine fire, police and ambulance in some kind of sensible, county-wide emergency provision? That would enjoy huge popular support. I know it is very early days, but if someone were to produce a sensible plan, would the Home Office look at it?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend, not least for the heads-up that he is encouraging me to go off-piste. We are operating in tough conditions. The situation requires outstanding leadership and for authorities, the system, the Home Office and the Government to be open to new proposals, because this is an environment in which we need to innovate. My instinct is always to be open to new ideas, and I will always ask, “Is there local support for this? Is there a business case and an evidence base to support this?” We feel strongly that there is an opportunity to go further with the governance of emergency services and police and fire in particular, which is why we enabled that through legislation. I am absolutely delighted that Northamptonshire is in the vanguard in responding to that opportunity, as I would expect. I can assure my hon. Friend that when the business case is released from the bowels of the Home Office and on to my desk, I will process it as quickly as possible. In the meantime, I congratulate him on securing this debate and thank him for his approval.

Question put and agreed to.