Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

We are aware of the congestion at the toll, but most of that is caused by the barriers. An archaic method of collecting tolls is in place. We will introduce free-flow tolling as soon as we can. A lot of construction work needs to be done but, at the end of the day, the biggest problem is that the M25 is such a success we need to have another crossing over the Thames.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

5. What plans she has for future funding for railway stations.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

The comprehensive spending review secured funding for a range of major station improvements to be delivered over the next few years, including Reading, Birmingham New Street, Blackfriars and London Bridge. Proposals for a number of new stations are under consideration for support from local transport funds. Further funding for station improvements over the 2014-2019 period will be considered as part of the high level output specification process. Additionally, one of the goals of our franchise reform is to encourage more train operator investment in railways including in stations.

[Paul Maynard]

Many hon. Members will have admired St Pancras station as an example of what a station can be and will have wished that their own nearest mainline stations lived up to that standard. I welcome the Government’s move to transfer responsibility for stations from Network Rail to franchise holders, yet the fact that many of the investments required in mainline stations cannot be recouped in the course of one single franchise period means that operators are disincentivised from making those investments. Will the Minister ensure that the final invitation to tender for the west coast main line issued in the new year addresses that anomaly?

[Mrs Villiers]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I assure him that there is always space for taxpayer funding for bigger-scale station upgrades. In terms of encouraging train operators to invest in station improvements, I also agree that we need to find ways to encourage them to invest in long-term projects that may have a pay-back period beyond the end of the franchise. One of the ways we are addressing that is with longer franchises, but we are also working carefully on how we improve the mechanisms for delivering a residual value at the end of the franchise for just the sort of investments he wants to see.

High-Speed Rail

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, for what I think is the first time.

Members may wonder why we are having yet another debate on High Speed 2. In fact, we are not; we are having a debate on high-speed rail in the north. I requested this debate partly because when we discussed the issue in the main Chamber a couple of weeks ago, I felt that there were not enough contributions from the north, and I wanted to rebalance the equation. I do not want to debate the merits of HS2 today, and I do not really want to talk about anything south of Birmingham if I can help it. I want the debate to focus on the north, and I do not intend to stop at the Scottish border. I deliberately used the word “north” to encourage Scottish Members to participate in the debate.

I will try to make clear the terms of the debate, and also state what the debate is not. I used the phrase “high-speed rail in the north” to ensure that the debate was not about HS2—which to my mind is ultra high speed—but about high-speed rail as a concept. Equally, I make a plea for a slightly more consensual style, compared to previous debates. New infrastructure projects understandably excite high passions, but wandering into Prime Minister’s questions wearing a colourful badge that cannot be read by anyone watching TV, let alone other Members, does not benefit either set of arguments, and diminishes the dignity of the House. That does not mean, however, that we have to accept a mushy consensus on infrastructure projects. I accept that we will disagree, but I hope that we can do so in a polite and measured way.

If I were given billions of pounds to spend on transport in the north of England, would I immediately reach for high-speed rail links to London? Perhaps not. When “The Northern Way” transport compact first got going in 2006-07, it did not mention high-speed rail because that was simply not on the agenda. It focused on improved connectivity in the north of England, rather than between the north and the south, and it highlighted the importance of the trans-Pennine corridor. That importance was emphasised by the Government’s switch from the S-route to the Y-route, together with the issue of what to do with the Woodhead tunnels. I would also welcome a little reassurance from the Minister on the northern hub. Even if it is to be delivered in parts, will the sum of those parts still equal the whole of the vision? I trust that it will.

We must consider how we differ from our European counterparts. If I think of the Liverpool-Manchester metropolis, it rather reminds me of the Rhine-Ruhrgebiet in Germany, another heavily industrialised urban area. One difference, however, between this country and the Rhine-Ruhr area is the comparatively poor transport links found in our metropolises. We can learn a lot just by looking at Germany for a change.

I have no shortage of material for this debate, and although I could probably speak for an hour and a half without trying, I promise that I have no intention of doing so. I will try to take a step back and look at some of the more thematic policy issues and the effect that a decision to proceed with any form of high-speed rail north of Birmingham will have on Government policy making. I do not want to see half-baked solutions that run to other people’s political timetables.

Quality of policy making is crucial; it is what I came into politics to try to improve, and no matter what party is in power, I think that the quality and detail of public policy making in this country is bad. The quality of our understanding of transport in the north of England is, to my mind, entirely due to work by “The Northern Way” over the past five years, and I mourn its loss greatly. I do not blame the Government entirely for that loss, and it is a shame that many of the local actors who had the chance to fund “The Northern Way” after the closure of the regional development agencies did not take the opportunity to do so. The loss of “The Northern Way” has created a fundamental problem, because we have lost the pan-northern perspective and the ability to weigh up differing priorities in Yorkshire, the north-west and the north-east. We are seeing a retreat back to lists of regional priorities, with Manchester wanting one thing, Liverpool another, and Leeds something else, and there is no body that tries to pull those things together and says, “Your proposal is slightly better than that one.” We need some form of co-ordinating body that would allow such prioritisation.

I participated in the Transport Committee inquiry into high-speed rail—I assure hon. Members that it was a mammoth undertaking, and I do not think that my life will ever be the same—so I know how much controversy there has been not only over the detail of the route, but about which field the line will or will not go through, how noisy or quiet it will be, how big this will be and how small that will be. We have perhaps never seen such controversy over a single infrastructure project. The debate was based on the single premise—the single fallacy—that merely building infrastructure automatically promotes economic growth. It does not. It is not a case of “Build it and they will come”; we need look only at so-called Stratford International station to know that. Stratford International station in east London is remarkable in having no international train services—most impressive. It is a classic example of the sort of white elephant that those of us who are concerned about levels of public expenditure do not wish to see.

The Department for Transport’s promotion of high-speed rail has focused on the three Ls—Lille, Lyon and Lleida—as examples of how investment in high-speed rail in Europe has brought economic growth to the surrounding areas. However, for every city named by the DFT, the anti-high-speed rail campaign provides an alternative, and says that high-speed rail makes no difference at all, is a total waste of money and that we should not bother. At the end, it is rather like the Eurovision song contest on a city basis, with “nul points for Zaragoza,” and “dix points for Brussels.” That is not informative, and what matters is not so much the location, the name of the city or how good its PR effort is, but what the local government in the area chooses to do in response to hearing that it will get a high-speed rail link. That critical variable is often overlooked in the debate.

In evidence to the Transport Committee, Professor Tomaney from Newcastle university stated:

“The stations themselves do not, on their own, provide those development opportunities. What is required is much larger-scale economic development planning.”

Hon. Members may think that I, a Conservative, would hide my head under the desk at that statement—“How could he possibly suggest economic planning? What an appalling thing to do!”—but it is more subtle than that. If we know that a high-speed rail link will go to the centre of Manchester, we have to deal not only with issues of dispersal, an integrated transport system and whether the buses and suburban trains interlink, but wider policy issues about housing and jobs, and schools policy in particular, which is often overlooked in transport planning. We should look at the wider policy, not just at issues of transport, and as the Government move forward and consider how to progress with high-speed rail, they must look at more than just transport.

There are risks, and it is silly to pretend that high-speed rail will be only a good thing and that nothing bad could ever happen. Professor Roger Vickerman also gave evidence to the Transport Committee, and pointed out that although the arrival of the TGV in Lyon and Lille benefited those two cities, it also sucked in some of the economic activity from towns in their immediate peripheries. Unless the correct decisions are taken locally, high-speed rail could arrive in one city and cause a diminution in economic activity in a neighbouring city, suburb or minor area. That is a possibility, but certainly not a given. There are no givens in this debate because, as I say, the situation depends entirely on the decision making at local and regional level. Whether someone is a supporter or a detractor—a friend or foe—of high-speed rail, they have to agree that that must be part of the debate, and I argue strongly that it has been absent from the debate so far.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

As a fellow member of the Transport Committee I, too, was on the visit to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Although we heard that argument made in Lille, in Frankfurt we heard a counter-argument: the Frankfurt to Cologne line had a significant impact in improving the whole region, not just the two places where there was a station. People argued strongly in Frankfurt that there was a benefit for the whole region between those two areas.

[Paul Maynard]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He is correct and almost makes my point for me: it is horses for courses. We can all point to examples of high-speed rail achieving one thing in one area and a different thing in another. The most interesting aspect of the German example that he points to is that Frankfurt is at the confluence of about four different Länder. It is quite difficult for Frankfurt to have regional planning when, at the level at which that tends to occur, it has about four different bodies to try to liaise with. That again shows the difficulties, but also that if the will is there, the correct decisions can be made that lead to economic growth.

That is perhaps the challenge that we have to face: at what level do we seek to take the decisions? I am firmly of the view that local transport consortiums—or whichever range of acronyms we wish to append to the matter this week—are crucial for moving forward. I would welcome information from the Government on how that is progressing. We can point to Transport for Greater Manchester as a very good example of what can be done. It is interesting and welcome that the differing integrated transport authorities are all moving at what I suggest is a slightly different pace in their own particular direction. Standardisation is being lost, and there is, I think, more local sensibility. That can only be a good thing, but it still does not resolve the problem that I shall refer to, with apologies to the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), as the Skelmersdale problem. I mean no disrespect to that fine town.

Skelmersdale is in the travel-to-work area of at least two major conurbations—Manchester and Liverpool—yet it is not in either the Greater Manchester or Merseyside city regions. It is in the district of West Lancashire. That poses a challenge for transport planning, because we seem to have in this country a culture that says, “You are where you are. You are defined by your boundaries, not by your economic patterns or what actually happens in an area.” We also seem to have an unwritten rule that says, “You can only be in one club at any one time. You can’t be in both the Greater Manchester area and the Merseyside area at the same time. Heaven forfend!” That has consequences, as I hope the hon. Lady would agree, for her constituents, in terms of improving transport links to both the main areas.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman encapsulates the problem that my constituents have. The new town of Skelmersdale is 50 years old this year. It has no railway station and very poor transport links, and it is therefore isolated. If we could extend the development of high-speed rail through the north-west, that would bring economic benefits right round, not just to the Skelmersdale part of my constituency, but to the Ormskirk and Burscough areas, with the Burscough curves joining lines up to Preston. It is nonsense that in the 21st century we should be caught between two stools. We have no railway station and no transport links, and are therefore losing out on a huge economic benefit.

[Paul Maynard]

I thank the hon. Lady for that informative intervention. I know that there is no shortage of transport proposals in West Lancashire. She has not even mentioned the Ormskirk bypass yet. We could go on and on, I am sure.

To my mind, city regions have the best potential. I know that potentially they are also controversial. I am sure that many people would not want a return to Merseyside. However, I welcome the proposals from Lord Heseltine and Terry Leahy; if we are to have elected mayors in our great cities, they probably need to cover more than just the council of that name.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

As a proud Merseysider, I have to correct the hon. Gentleman and tell him that Merseyside still exists, certainly in transport terms. One of the important things that he is telling us is that interconnectivity between city regions that cover places such as Skelmersdale, and from Wirral to north Wales, is among the most important factors. There is already some good practice on the ground, certainly in Merseyside, in that respect. Is his point that we should deal with the reality of people’s lives, rather than having arbitrary decisions made in Whitehall about what councils do or do not exist?

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

Order. I ask hon. Members to keep to the substantive issue of the debate when making interventions.

[Paul Maynard]

I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) that this should be about people’s lives. Let us imagine that high-speed rail is coming to Liverpool. That will have an impact on the lives of people outside the former Merseyside as well as inside it, whether they are in Cheshire, Halton, Skelmersdale or wherever, and we have to respond to that.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I would like to turn the focus slightly away from Lancashire and Merseyside for a second. The hon. Gentleman is making a very powerful argument for the importance of local networks and making the most of high-speed rail. That applies in Scotland as well. Does he agree that it is important that a decision and commitment is made at an early stage that the routes will run to Glasgow and Edinburgh, not just because that will benefit our areas but because it will bring particular added value to communities further south, which will gain from the extra business that the extension to Edinburgh and Glasgow will bring to communities all along the line?

[Paul Maynard]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. That is precisely why I used the phrase “high-speed rail in the north”—because I did mean north as far as Scotland, and not just to the Scottish border. As I said, we seem to spend a lot of time trading cases of where high-speed rail has worked and where it has not. I have tried to ban the word “transformative” from my lexicon, because I have got so bored of hearing people tell me that high-speed rail will be transformative. I am not quite sure in what way or with what evidence—they just like to say it because it sounds good.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate, because it is on an issue that we have been talking about, but that there has not been much action around. When he talks about local areas, does he really mean that? I ask because I think that the programme will never take off unless there is a national planning committee that can oversee everything about the idea.

[Paul Maynard]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I spent an hour at lunchtime trying to work out whether I was a Liberal or not. I was reading the yellow book from 1928, called “Our Industrial Future”, which recommended precisely what he has referred to—a national infrastructure planning commission that would take the decisions. That is all well and good, but I come from a different political tradition. I discovered that I was a Conservative after all. The reason why I am talking so much about local decision making is that for high-speed rail to have the impact that we all want it to have—in particular, for the rebalancing of the economy that the Government so value—there are decisions that will have to be taken at local level. My concern is that if we do not think about that now, it will not happen, so I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but the tenor of my remarks is designed to draw attention to where we need better local decision making, and where the DFT needs to factor local priorities into its planning.

I will try to draw my remarks to a close, because I have been going on for almost 20 minutes. In particular, I would like the Government to convene something analogous to “The Northern Way”, be it a ministerial committee for transport in the north of England, an advisory group or whatever. It should be something that will bring together all the different voices in the north for the purposes of understanding and reprioritising. A large number of projects have been proposed, with varying cost-benefit ratios that we have all looked at and analysed to the nth degree. We need some way of working out what the pan-northern priorities are. At the moment, I am concerned that that will not occur, so I hope that the Minister can reassure me on that key point.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Ms Dorries. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on securing what has been an excellent debate, with worthwhile contributions from all parties, including an interesting contribution from the hon. Gentleman himself. He made many good points. He also spoke about the need for an all-party consensus on this issue and today he has spoken, if I may say so, like a one-man all-party consensus. He said that even today he has searched his soul and he remains a Conservative, and that is fine. However, in bemoaning the loss of the regional development agencies and the Northern Way, he is speaking like a Labour Member.

[Paul Maynard]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Woodcock]

I will of course give way to the hon. Gentleman, but before I do so I will just add that, in castigating his own Government, he is acting like a Liberal Democrat.

[Paul Maynard]

For the avoidance of doubt, I am fully behind the decision to abolish the regional development agencies.

[John Woodcock]

If the hon. Gentleman says so, that is fine. How he will get on with his colleagues after today I do not know, but whenever he puts forward sensible proposals, we will work constructively with him to further shared objectives, if he is willing to do so.

The hon. Gentleman made some important points about the northern hub, but Opposition Members believe that it is important to guard against letting the Government off and facilitating them by easing up on lobbying about delivering the project in parts and effectively leaving sections of the northern hub on the shelf.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has been in the House over the past couple of weeks for the important Back-Bench debate on high-speed rail, in which we set out with crystal clarity our support for the project. We were absolutely right to look at the project again in Opposition because it is a major one and will require substantial and sustained investment. We have concluded that we will back the Government, and try to strengthen their resolve when we think they are not giving enough of a commitment to the north.

[Paul Maynard]

I am sorry to have to intervene yet again. On Monday, the hon. Gentleman’s party announced support for a version of HS2 that would go through Heathrow and up the M40, which was the model that the Conservative party proposed pre-election, so can he confirm that he is not now supporting the Government model?

[John Woodcock]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point and I want to get on to it. I hope that I can now get an opportunity to do so.

We believe that the north of England and Scotland, indeed the whole UK, deserve a proper commitment from the Government to a new high-speed line running right up to Manchester and Leeds. Many Members on both sides have made that point today, and I hope that they will support us in agreeing that failure by the Government to legislate for that in one go leaves a question mark over their commitment to jobs and growth in the north. We urge the Government to reconsider, and I hope that the Minister will come back having done so.

The first stage of High Speed 2, as far as Birmingham, is vital transport infrastructure. It relieves the already mentioned congestion and overcapacity on the main line from Euston and cuts journey times to the west midlands significantly. It provides new capacity to shift freight on to rail, and could provide—from the outset, Opposition Members hope—fast links to Heathrow airport from across the country. On that point—as it was raised—the Minister was quoted as saying that our alternative suggestion was unhelpful.

Given the strength of our support for the overall scheme and the widespread unease about the current route, which is shared by many Government Members, I hope that the Minister will make clear what she really thinks in her closing remarks. Does she recognise that linking directly to Heathrow would strengthen the project because it would be cheaper overall than building the proposed route with a separate spur, it would increase the opportunity to lever in private investment in a way that the Old Oak Common proposal does not, and it would generate a complementary benefit for Heathrow by providing a rail substitute for short-haul flights, thereby releasing capacity, and that it is therefore worthy of serious consideration?

The second stages of HS2 beyond the west midlands to Manchester and Leeds would provide benefits that dwarf those of the first stage. The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys does not like the word “transformative”, but this project could redraw the economic geography of the UK and that is why there is such wide-ranging support for the stages beyond Birmingham, not only from Members, as demonstrated today, but from business groups and local authorities across the north. Once completed, HS2 would bring Leeds and Manchester within 80 minutes of London and 96 minutes of Liverpool. In addition to the tens of thousands of extra jobs, it would create new businesses, new investment, a modal shift from domestic air to rail, more reliable journeys, more frequent trains and more seats, and God knows we need that on the line. A clearer commitment now to the extension beyond Birmingham, would make the business case for HS2 stronger and private sector investment more likely and secure valuable political and business support across the north.

There has been no shortage of warm words from Ministers in recent months, but we need a commitment to one hybrid Bill. There is no need to delay getting spades into the ground on stage one if the Government decide to re-consult and put the route to the north in the Bill.

High Speed 2

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of High Speed 2.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to open the debate, and I am particularly grateful to all the Members —in all parts of the House and on all sides of the debate —who have turned up to participate. It is an incredibly important debate, because it involves £32 billion of taxpayers’ money. I am delighted to see that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport is not present, because, being an eternal optimist, I believe that he is delaying his decision until December—as he certainly should—and is keen to listen to the debate as it progresses. I know that not just you, Mr Speaker, but many right hon. and hon. Members have taken a great interest in this subject. Let me mention in particular my hon. Friends the Members for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) and for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright).

It is fashionable for those who oppose HS2 to be dismissed as nimbys. Let me make it clear that I am here today not just as a concerned constituency MP but as someone with 25 years of experience in finance, including project finance, and that I am determined to defend the taxpayer against what I consider to be an unjustifiable and eye-wateringly expensive project. If the route went from Truro to Paddington, or from Leeds to Edinburgh, I would still be here today defending the taxpayer.

When I first heard about HS2 I thought it was a superb idea, but 18 months later all the proposed benefits have fallen away one by one, and there is no hard evidence that spending £32 billion can truly be justified. For instance, there is no evidence that this project will solve the north-south divide. In fact, there is plenty of evidence from the experience in France and Germany, and from our own HS1, that high-speed trains can suck development out of the regions and into the major cities.

I also have an intuitive concern about the point-to-point nature of the project. The north is not a place; it is a region. Those close to the terminals will benefit of course, but it is unclear how people outside those areas can directly benefit. I recently spoke to my former constituency chairman in the Knowsley South seat, which I contested in 2005, and his view is that Knowsley South will end up paying its share of the cost of this project but will get little, if any, benefit.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

The north is not a region. It is made up of three regions—the north-west, Yorkshire and Humber and the north-east—all of which have their own identities, which I hope my hon. Friend will respect.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, and I certainly do respect the right of people in the north to economic regeneration. I am speaking as much for them as I am for people in Cornwall and the Isle of Wight when I say that £32 billion spent on this project is the wrong use of taxpayers’ money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

It is a great honour and pleasure to speak in this debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing it. She has allowed everybody who has a point of view the chance to make their case, expose the arguments of the other side and put forward their own.

In the last Parliament I was fortunate enough, along with the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), who is in her place, to be part of the shadow transport team who were the first authors of a major high-speed rail debate, and indeed of a high-speed rail policy.

The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) is absolutely right that there is a principled case for opposition to the scheme. My constituents are affected, as are those of the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). What is not a principled position, however, is to say that there is no economic, environmental, financial or travel case for high-speed rail. There clearly is a case, although its merits might differ according to differing points of view.

I have read both the rail package 2 study and the “A Better Railway for Britain” study, the proposals in which are often referred to as an alternative to high-speed rail. I shall briefly examine—because I want to move on to the positives, rather than the negatives—the proposals in the latter study for overcoming the capacity issues on the west coast main line. It proposes to introduce 12 car trains, grade-separated junctions and an additional track south of Nuneaton. It claims that the costs, at best, would be £2.06 billion, but it takes that figure from another, flawed document. I do not know whether those who produced the study have ever spoken to any of the rail operators, but it will be extremely difficult to integrate 12 cars into 11-car sets.

[Paul Maynard]

Does my hon. Friend agree that rail package 2 plus and RP2 both admit that they do not tackle the peak-hour demand, which is the crucial concern of many of us travelling on the west coast main line?

[Stephen Hammond]

Absolutely. However, so much in “A Better Railway for Britain” is mere assertion. The good points, though, are like that television programme from so long ago, “Not Only… But Also”. Not only do we need to do the things mentioned in RP2, but also we need high-speed rail. The case for high-speed rail is clear. It revolves primarily around capacity. Official sources say that the west coast main line will be full by 2020, although some say 2026, while unofficial sources say 2015. The question, then, is about how we add capacity. We either build a classic new line or we build one that uses some of the new techniques and signalling. The latter is called high-speed rail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing the first debate on high-speed rail to be held in the Chamber. This is, however, the fourth debate that we have had on the subject since the election. We debated it in Westminster Hall on 23 November, 31 March and 13 July, so we have discussed it every four months or so. I notice that the period between debates is becoming ever shorter, so by the time HS2 delivers any value, we might be debating it every day.

Contrary to certain assumptions, I am the only Buckinghamshire MP whose constituency is not affected by the high-speed rail proposal. I know that your constituency is affected by it, Mr Speaker, and that your constituents have very strong views and that you submitted a substantial response to the consultation. The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), responded robustly to the consultation on behalf of her constituents, delivering seven files of objections and evidence against HS2, which will cut a deep scar through the middle of the area of outstanding natural beauty in which her constituency sits. The Minister for Europe, my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), and the Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), were present earlier, and I know that their constituents are implacably opposed to HS2. Many other members of the Government also have objections, including the Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), who also has strong views.

Although my constituents are not directly affected, they oppose HS2 on a number of grounds, but before I go on to explain my opposition, I wish to welcome the Government’s noble intentions. Whether in seeking the rejuvenation of the economy, the revitalisation of the north or the protection of the environment, or in trying to attract international inward investment, their intentions are indeed noble, but I regret to say that I do not support the means by which they seek to meet those ends.

The Secretary of State reflected on capacity, carbon and international competition in his evidence to the Transport Committee. On the question of the economics, as we have already learned in this debate, it is possible to refer to the titles and authors of reports both for and against the proposal. I am afraid that for every economist who comes down on one side of the debate, there will always be another economist on the other side. The Economist magazine came out against HS2, and when I put that to the Secretary of State, he was quick to rebut it and explain that he was about to write a letter.

The truth is that this project is awash with entrepreneurial risk. It is impossible to get hold of any hard facts showing whether it is a good idea. There is certainly an economic case, but I am afraid that it is ethereal: the moment we grasp it, it seems to disappear.

[Paul Maynard]

My hon. Friend claims that there is no economic case, but does he recognise that there may be a strategic case?

[Steve Baker]

I enjoy serving on the Transport Committee with my hon. Friend, but I am not saying there is no economic case; rather, I am saying that we cannot nail down that case because of the entrepreneurial risk. In my view, when very large sums of capital are being allocated in an environment of entrepreneurial risk, entrepreneurs should bear that entrepreneurial risk.

I asked an international investor, “What do you think of HS2?” The answer was, “It would be wonderful to arrive fresh and relaxed in no time at all.” I then asked, “Would you invest in it?” The response now was, “That’s unfair. Of course I wouldn’t invest in it.” The market would not deliver high-speed rail, and that would be a market success, because to do so would be a misallocation of capital.

I put it to the Secretary of State that this project would socialise risk and privatise profit. He explained that that was to be expected, and we had to be realistic about it. I do not share that sense of “realism” on that point; I think that in reality this will be loss-making, in any commercial sense of the term. The whole point of loss is that it directs entrepreneurs to do something else with their capital, because if they are making a loss they are destroying value, not creating it.

I shall now deal with the carbon implications of this line. Something profound is going on in relation to carbon. The Secretary of State talked about the need to keep going until we were absolutely sure that we would decarbonise the roads. There is a vision at the heart of HS2 that we have not yet fully grasped. Given that I have 30 seconds available to me, and others wish to speak, I shall just refer to a letter that I sent shortly after I arrived in this place. I said that the Government could not afford high-speed rail, that they would not be able to afford it, that it would be a disaster if they did this—my basis for saying that was David Myddelton’s book “They Meant Well: Government Project Disasters” —and that the Government should not do it in any event, because it should be left to entrepreneurs. Nothing that I heard during the Select Committee on Transport inquiry has changed my mind.

Public Transport (Disabled Access)

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on a compelling and powerful speech, even if I did not quite agree with everything that she said—but such is life.

I do not wish to pre-empt my ten-minute rule Bill next Tuesday, which I recommend to everyone, but I have a few preliminary comments. All in the Chamber know how much the concessionary fares are valued by our constituents, even if we tend to argue about them at election time. One particular imbalance, however, needs to be addressed. Able-bodied pensioners who can use the buses get the concessionary fare, but disabled pensioners who cannot use the buses and have to rely on dial-a-ride services, demand-responsive services or other community transport must pay their own way. That seems to me to be a glaring imbalance, which no doubt runs contrary to the spirit of the legislation when introduced by the Labour party—none the less, an imbalance.

I understand that certain councils choose to provide free transport for the disabled, but not every council does. With the increasing budgetary pressures, I fear that fewer and fewer will. The imbalance seems not only unfair but contrary to the spirit of equality and of human dignity. However, I realise that a spending commitment would be involved, which is no doubt frowned upon. To many of the pensioners who contact me and say, “I don’t need the card; I am wealthy enough to pay myself,” I make the point that people can always pay their own way—no one is forcing them to have a card. Equally, however, my constituents in Blackpool do not deserve to be treated differently from my constituents in Wyre. Everyone should have the same right to free transport and free travel, and any hon. Member who wants to support my Bill, may add their name after the debate.

One of the great honours of being an MP is the opportunity to chair the all-party group on young disabled people. Its secretariat is wonderfully provided by the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign. I am not a great fan of the all-party group system as a whole because too many strike me as unnecessary vanity projects, or an excuse to visit obscure countries that I have never heard of. However, when I was approached, I said that I would be the chairman on one condition—that the group is meaningful. I wanted outcomes, processes and reports. I did not want to sit around just talking about the problems; I wanted to hear what we could do about them. That is certainly what I got.

Report No. 1 of the “Inclusion Now” series is called “End of the Line”. Leaving aside the fact that that was also the title of the Conservative party’s report on coastal towns when in opposition and that that is now in the Government’s bottom drawer, I welcome it because it explains what happens to many disabled people. They may want to get off at a station, but when they arrive no one is there to help them, and they may go to the end of the line, which is often many stations away, because no one will help them to get off.

The report was followed by a public hearing of the all-party group to which we invited numerous transport providers. At the start of the meeting, I said that I did not want negativity, and to hear just the bad. As the hon. Member for Wigan said, we have made strides, and if we tell train, bus and taxi companies only what they are doing wrong, they will not be encouraged to fix what is wrong.

Some dreadful cases came to light. Buses pulled away sharply with wheelchairs going everywhere, and passengers with imbalance issues were sent flying. The assisted passenger registration service limits people’s spontaneity because they must give 24 hours’ notice. If I had to give 24 hours’ notice of where I wanted to go, I am not sure that I could live my life as it is.

The hon. Lady referred to accessibility issues at stations. I know that many of the buildings are old—they have been around for a long time—but with better creativity and a bit of thought, I am sure that solutions could be found. Perhaps the most controversial issue was staff awareness and individual members of staff who did not meet the standards expected by their own company. That is a difficult issue. Many people think that such members of staff just need more training. I take a slightly more libertarian view, because we cannot control what occurs in people’s minds. I would love to make them all think as they should think, but that cannot happen. However, every disabled person who suffers should have the confidence to enter the complaints process knowing that they will be listened to, and knowing that they will not be dismissed.

We cannot have passengers being left on trains, and we cannot have staff members ignoring them at stations. We cannot have that attitude, but we must recognise that there is a problem because of the age of many of our trains, buses and so on. I often travel by train into Manchester from Preston on what is essentially a bus on wheels. I suspect that it is older than me. It is unrealistic to expect it to have all the knobs and flashing buttons that a modern train might have to enable passengers to draw attention to the fact that a disabled passenger may be trying to get off. Such technology might ease the problems for staff also.

I pay tribute to National Express, which does an excellent job in providing for disabled people. There are issues about the Government’s funding of coach services that might threaten some of the subsidies, but I had better not go there. However, I have asked National Express why it does not introduce a 50% reduction card. If it has so many disabled passengers, I am sure it will keep them if it introduces a card under its own steam.

The hon. Lady was critical of the abolition of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, but I do not share that criticism. We are having a quango cull, with many worthy bodies disappearing, but Equality 2025, which is based at the Home Office, will absorb its responsibilities, and a wider equality framework may be more effective at achieving the goals that she wants.

I do not want negativity, so I shall mention a success from the Trailblazer campaign. Carrie-Ann Fleming, who lives in Kendal, often had to wait an hour at a bus stop for the right disabled-access bus to come along. She thought that that was not good enough, so she launched a campaign and fought really hard. For once, a local council listened to someone complaining about something. That rarely happens, but it did in this case, and the council will alter the timetables to ensure that she can get on a bus without having to wait an hour.

I will close with a plea for human dignity. Some 47% of disabled people experience some form of abuse on public transport, according to Alice Maynard of Scope. She is no relation; I do not know which of us is more relieved about that. Even I have experienced abuse. I take a bus to the station every morning on my way here. At 7 am, I am often a bit groggy and a bit woolly-headed, and I do not always keep my balance when the driver puts his foot down and roars off from the bus stop. I may go flying, and on one occasion I crashed into a business lady who was not very happy about that. I apologised, and explained that my balance is by no means perfect, and that I struggle on buses. She said that I should not be on a bus if I cannot stand up straight. I just said, “I beg your pardon?” I could not believe it, because I have as much right as she does to be on the bus. It is not called able-body transport; it is called public transport. That means that we should all be able to use it, not just the able-bodied.

Rail Investment

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Thursday 17th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, as it is to follow the Chair of the Transport Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), whom I hold in great esteem.

It is also a great pleasure to discuss the Transport Committee’s report on rail priorities. It is not one that I have any personal responsibility for, as I had not been elected to Parliament when it was drawn up. None the less, priorities for rail investment is a worthy topic for debate, not least because of the amount of public money that our railways consume. We have a democratic duty to ensure that that investment is properly apportioned.

For me, the sacred text in this area remains the Eddington report, which the previous Government commissioned and which included several pertinent points. In particular, when prioritising investment Sir Rod Eddington stressed that we needed to focus on three main areas, namely congested urban areas and travel-to-work areas, key inter-urban corridors and key international gateways and hubs. All three were coming under pressure from increasing congestion and the associated unreliability.

As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside pointed out, a lot has changed since her Committee’s report was published. We have a new Government—we even have a new MP for Blackpool North and Cleveleys. We have also had welcome confirmation from the Government of the importance of infrastructure investment. Amid all the talk of spending reductions, I was pleased to learn that many of the feared cuts that we were all told were coming down the line did not materialise and that important projects such as electrification are continuing, which is welcome. It is also true that the issue of high-speed rail has assumed a much greater importance in our political discourse, and I will discuss that issue in more detail later.

One aspect of policy making has been diminished since the election, which is regrettable—maybe this is a misinterpretation on my part; I do not know. As a Member of Parliament for the north of England, I recognise that regional development agencies had their faults and their problems. They were by no means perfect organisations, and they needed immediate reform. I agree with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside that one area where they made a contribution was the quality of the transport planning that they provided through the Northern Way project. I have had the pleasure of meeting representatives of that project time and time again. The quality of the work that they have done was one reason why the Government’s infrastructure announcements for the north of England went down so well, and I have genuine concerns about the quality of policy making if the Northern Way does not find a niche within the new Government structures.

The north is different, and this is not just special pleading or the usual carping about London getting all the transport money. We know that there is a substantial productivity gap between the north and the south of England. I recognise that London is our national capital—a global capital, if anything—and that it needs substantial public investment, but we cannot overlook the fact that the north has, over many years, been getting a raw deal rather than its fair share.

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) suggested earlier today that I read his book on how to be a Back Bencher. I have learned one essential truth so far, which is that it is only when an MP is bored with talking about an issue that he knows he has got his point across. With some trepidation, therefore, I shall discuss the northern hub.

When the report was first published, the northern hub was still the Manchester hub, and I take some pleasure in having played a role in getting it renamed, if only to reflect the fact that it benefits the whole of the north of England and the north of Wales from Anglesey to Newcastle. The northern hub is not only a building in Manchester, but a series of discrete projects that unlock the potential of the rich, dense rail network that exists across the north of England, and it is vital that it goes ahead. I welcome all the positive indications that we have had so far from the Minister. Every time I have bored her and the Secretary of State by asking about it, I have got a nod and a wink that it will be in control period 5, and I ask once again for that to be restated.

We have to realise that whenever we discuss inter-city travel in the UK, for those of us who are London-centric or come down here all the time, north-south journeys matter, but for business men in my constituency and across the north of England, east-west journeys are just as important. People in Manchester occasionally need to go across the Pennines to Leeds and even further to Newcastle. Sometimes, my constituents want to go to the north Wales seaside, because they have had enough of Blackpool—surely not. East-west travel matters, and the Council for the Protection of Rural England backs better trans-Pennine rail links, although I am not sure whether it would do so with HS2.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I strongly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s view about east-west links being equally important. Does he agree that it is vital to keep the Woodhead tunnel for future transport use and not let it be poisoned by having electricity cables put through it? The previous Government arranged for that to happen, and I hope that the present Government will continue to preserve the tunnel for future transport use.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Maynard]

As with all matters relating to rail freight, I bow to the hon. Gentleman’s superior knowledge, and would not dare trespass on it for fear of being shown up as an ignoramus.

I shall discuss HS2, because it is so controversial and cannot be avoided. The arguments are difficult, and whichever side of the argument someone is on their policy must be evidence based, because it is only through an evidence base that the politics of the proposals can start to be addressed. I recognise that there are arguments on both sides. As a northern Member of Parliament, I see immense potential benefits, but I am sure that if I were an MP in an area affected by the proposed route, I would have enormous concerns. It is, however, dangerous to base our argument solely on a few simplistic notions. Building the railway will not in itself heal the north-south divide, and it is foolish to base the argument on that soundbite alone. It is equally dangerous to base it on saying that there will somehow be magnificent environmental benefits by domestic aviation being rendered unnecessary. At the moment, we cannot see even one or two years ahead in our domestic aviation environment, let alone 15 to 20. Who knows where Heathrow will be by then?

[Martin Horwood]

The evidence from other high-speed rail systems around the world is that where they are over sufficient distances—which, admittedly, probably means further than Birmingham—there is something like an 80% drop in air traffic over those distances. London to Paris is a good example.

[Paul Maynard]

I agree almost entirely with that point—but perhaps only 80%. It very much depends on where someone is flying from and where they are going to, and I suggest that in 15 years’ time perhaps no one will be flying domestically to Heathrow, if only because it might have ceased to be an international hub. We might all be flying to Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt, but that is another matter entirely.

The key variable in the discussion on HS2 is demand. Whether demand will increase is contested, but as someone who travels regularly on the west coast main line, I know full well that that line is already reaching capacity. The east coast main line is also struggling, and we cannot have people being herded into pens at Euston station on a Friday evening and say that we are not at capacity already. I accept entirely the argument that extra capacity has to be provided, but it is not simply a matter of expanding a few platforms here and inserting a few carriages there, making cattle class a literal concept for millions of travellers. We have to discuss what type of capacity to provide, and I realise that that is perhaps a confused area for people on both sides of the argument.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

The record will show that the hon. Gentleman has just referred to a literal cattle class. I hope that he will take time to examine exactly what that means. When I was in a previous position and people used to challenge me about whether it was right to treat humans in the same way as cattle, I was always quick to point out that the cattle’s final destination was somewhat less enjoyable than Paddington.

[Paul Maynard]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the conditions that many passengers are forced to face on our inter-city trains are analogous to those experienced by animals, even if their end destination is perhaps more pleasant.

[Mr Leech]

My hon. Friend has mentioned that he uses the west coast main line regularly, as do I. The trouble is that if the number of west coast main line trains from Manchester to London were increased from three to four an hour, it would have a detrimental impact on local services. That is why high-speed rail is so important in ensuring that we can maintain local and inter-regional services as well as the inter-city ones.

[Paul Maynard]

The hon. Gentleman has anticipated my next point. I take entirely the point that the network of high-speed rail that has been mapped out links areas with a high concentration of service industries, which is key to saying that the predictions for demand are more robust than they were, for instance, in Spain, where Madrid and Seville were linked. Seville had a high level of heavy industry but no service industry, so no demand occurred.

I want to make a number of other points before concluding and allowing as many hon. Members as possible to participate in the debate. May I make a plea to the Minister on open-access rail? We have just seen the sad failure of the Wrexham and Shrewsbury service, which was a good example of open access, but it failed to make money. There are other examples around the country, such as Grand Central, which have shown that open access can work. I urge the Minister unambiguously to state her support for open access in the forthcoming White Paper, and indeed today, because many open access companies are uncertain about their future. In Blackpool, open access is perhaps our only chance of getting a link to London. I urge her, therefore, to make some positive noises on open access.

In conclusion, whenever we write reports, there is always the temptation to come up with a wish list, and I have fallen into the trap myself today by highlighting the northern hub. Wish lists are easy to make, but it is far harder to have a discussion and come to a view on how to prioritise policy making. How do we reconcile all the different competing local priorities that we each have in our constituencies with the apportioning of public money? That is not easy.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

As a north Wales MP, my question concerns the extent to which there should be a recognition of the economic impact of railway investment, and to what degree the investment should take regional variations into account. My understanding is that investment in railways does not, for example, take into account investment in Wales, so we cannot even compare investment in Wales with investment in other parts of the United Kingdom. Should we have a system that allows us to identify investment in Wales as a percentage of overall investment in the railways?

[Paul Maynard]

It is important that we have more local decision making. It is easy to say such things, and we all do—we all talk about localism now—but we have to realise that it is not a case of build it and they will come. We recently heard evidence about Stratford International rail station, which has no international rail services. Merely building transport infrastructure does not guarantee passengers or even economic growth. Those involved in local government often place too much hope in signature schemes, which they spend public money on promoting. They tell us that those schemes will be transformational, but, 10 years down the road, they are shown to be nothing of the sort.

We need more innovation. Yes, it is easy to say that, too, and we all do. Small local schemes—a passing place here, a passing place there, a slightly longer platform somewhere else—can be cost-effective ways of increasing capacity. However, priorities also need to be decided at the regional and sub-regional levels, as well as at a national level. We have an increasingly complex and dense map of economic decision-making organisations. We have travel-to-work areas, city regions, local enterprise partnerships, strategic transport partnerships and smaller, micro-local organisations. One of the best transport submissions that I have ever seen came from a body called Upper Calder Valley Renaissance. It was incredibly powerful and full of good ideas, with a real understanding of the local transport economy, but it covered a micro-area.

I make a plea to the Minister to somehow grasp that nettle. We have a profusion of expertise out there, which enables us to make good quality, evidence-based decisions at local level. I despair when I hear the Department for Transport arguing the toss over the siting of a vending machine on a platform at Crewe station, because that has nothing to do with the Department. However, the Department has a role to play in ensuring that rail investment decisions are based on the greatest economic benefit and that proposals are evidence based. We can then worry about the politics.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris White]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her comments.

If I may pursue my argument further, there are still some questions to be asked—such as whether the assumption of background growth in demand of 133% is truly realistic; such as whether potential competition from conventional rail has been taken into consideration when calculating the returns to be generated by this investment; such as whether new developments in technology, including video conferencing, online communication and information sharing, will seriously reduce the need for travel.

Large countries such as China are considering whether there are clear benefits to high-speed rail. A report by The Economist only two weeks ago entitled “On the wrong track” highlighted the fact that many of the newly added lines are making hefty losses and are thought to be operating at under half capacity. The Chinese Academy of Sciences has asked the Chinese Government to reconsider the case for investment in high-speed rail.

[Paul Maynard]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a crucial difference in that we have freedom of movement, but China does not, which slightly adjusts market demand?

[Chris White]

I agree with that specific point. However, if China, which has an economy twice the size of ours, is considering whether high-speed rail gives value for money, despite the point made by hon. Friend we should think again.

As the Eddington transport study highlighted, it is not that Britain’s transport system is not quick enough, but rather that it is extremely dense and we need greater investment in capacity.

Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government have committed themselves to a public consultation in the new year on the High Speed 2 rail scheme. They have allocated £750 million-worth of funding to take that scheme forward during the current spending review period.

That project—a strategic investment project—will more effectively close the gap between north and south and address the issues of differential economic growth rates than any other regional initiative that has been taken in the past couple of decades. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the commitment that the Government are making to that project, despite strong opposition to it in the southern half of the country.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that notwithstanding the benefits of high-speed rail, the only way really to improve the north’s economic performance in the here and now is to improve connectivity within the north through projects such as the northern hub? Does he agree that that will require not just Government support, but effective regional strategic planning, which we have not seen so far?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend has been a passionate advocate of the northern hub since long before his election to the House. He has made the case and continues to make it powerfully. It is a very important project. Network Rail is taking forward work on the northern hub proposal with a view to considering its inclusion in the next financial control period, starting in 2014.

I agree with my hon. Friend. Projects of that nature realise their full potential only if they are properly integrated, with wider regional policies being adopted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lynne Featherstone]

No, it is a regulatory function to carry out the first of those core duties, which is to ensure that everyone in the voluntary sector and the workplace understands what equality legislation means to them and then to encourage them to use it. So we are taking a very positive approach. We hope that the end that is the enforcement arm of the regulator will never have to be used.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

What recent representations has the Minister received from the EHRC about the disparity in tariffs for different types of hate crime? Disability hate crimes uniformly attract a lower tariff than hate crimes motivated by issues of sex or race.

[Lynne Featherstone]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He is right to say that certain forms of hate crime do not have the same aggravated status as others. That is being reviewed as we speak by the Ministry of Justice.

Transport (Investment)

Paul Maynard Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I have not seen my right hon. Friend’s speech, but I suspect that he was referring to the statement made last week about the Dartford crossing, where we have made the tough decision to increase charges. We have also made a commitment that the crossing will not be sold, as the previous Government proposed, and that we will work up proposals for additional capacity crossing the Thames at or in the region of that area.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

I welcome the upgrading of the Blackpool tramway and the many other infrastructure improvements in the north-west that will remove barriers to economic growth. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating the work of the Northern Way, which has provided such an excellent evidence base to help with the quality of transport policy making in the north? What role does he see the Northern Way playing as we go forward in ensuring that we have excellent quality data on which to judge policy?

[Mr Hammond]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. The Northern Way has produced some extremely valuable work that has informed a number of the decisions that have been taken and I look forward to its continuing to contribute to the debate.