Defence

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 4th September 2023 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

For the record, we are about to lose one of the best Defence Secretaries we have ever had. He will be sorely missed in this House, and in the Department. He knows that we have discussed what is wrong with defence procurement on many occasions, and he knows that the Public Accounts Committee and the Defence Committee have published a number of reports saying that it is broken. The most recent, entitled “It is broke—and it’s time to fix it” was published only last Sunday, and on Tuesday we see the DCP refresh, whose acquisition strategy has effectively accepted some of the 22 recommendations in our report within 48 hours. I humbly submit that that is some kind of world record for a Select Committee report.

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let me, in all seriousness, encourage the Defence Secretary, when he does his handover to whoever succeeds him—accompanied by his excellent team of junior Ministers—to impress on his successor the fact that we really do need to bring about this reform, not just for industry and not just for our armed forces, but for the whole security and defence of the realm. And with that, we wish him well.

[Mr Wallace]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his work on the report and for his campaigning. Let me also say, however, that procurement has started to improve. In 2009-10, the average time delay on a project was 28%; it is now 15%. The average cost overrun was 15% on a project in 2009-10; it is now 4%. The direction of travel is improving. The number of civil servants at DE&S went from 24,000 to 11,000, so we are cutting away the bureaucracy and the direction of travel is improving.

[Official Report, 18 July 2023, Vol. 736, c. 792.]

Letter of correction from the then Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace):

An error has been identified in my response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois).

The correct response should have been:

Defence Command Paper Refresh

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

For the record, we are about to lose one of the best Defence Secretaries we have ever had. He will be sorely missed in this House, and in the Department. He knows that we have discussed what is wrong with defence procurement on many occasions, and he knows that the Public Accounts Committee and the Defence Committee have published a number of reports saying that it is broken. The most recent, entitled “It is broke—and it’s time to fix it” was published only last Sunday, and on Tuesday we see the DCP refresh, whose acquisition strategy has effectively accepted some of the 22 recommendations in our report within 48 hours. I humbly submit that that is some kind of world record for a Select Committee report.

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let me, in all seriousness, encourage the Defence Secretary, when he does his handover to whoever succeeds him—accompanied by his excellent team of junior Ministers—to impress on his successor the fact that we really do need to bring about this reform, not just for industry and not just for our armed forces, but for the whole security and defence of the realm. And with that, we wish him well.

[Mr Wallace]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his work on the report and for his campaigning. Let me also say, however, that procurement has started to improve. In 2009-10, the average time delay on a project was 28%; it is now 15%. The average cost overrun was 15% on a project in 2009-10; it is now 4%. The direction of travel is improving. The number of civil servants at DE&S went from 24,000 to 11,000, so we are cutting away the bureaucracy and the direction of travel is improving. In my time as Secretary of State for Defence, I was also determined to put to bed some of the problem projects that we were all inheriting. I am pleased to say that, as I speak, Ajax is back on track and starting to be delivered to the units. The units are starting to train in it now. We could all have a discussion about whether we would have chosen Ajax all those years ago, but fundamentally it has not cost the taxpayer any more money and it is being delivered to our frontline. I was determined to put that right, or take other steps to deal with it. That should always be the case.

The other thing that I have always tried to do, which is not in the document but which I recommend in defence procurement, is to never defer—either delete or deliver. If you defer, it costs hundreds of millions of pounds. Deferring the aircraft carrier cost £1 billion under the Labour Government. Deferring the F-35 cost £500 million. Deferrals create the black holes. Delete or deliver, but don’t defer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 15th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

The Supreme Allied Commander Europe recently issued his regional plans, which extend to 3,000 pages of detailed proposals for the defence of Europe. From that will stem a donation conference at which all the member states will present their contributions to the plans. Within that, we will develop the new force model that will contribute to the new force structure of NATO. Once we have got through that period of the next few months, we will be able to tell the House exactly what we have put forward, how ready it is, and whether it meets the ask of the Supreme Allied Commander Europe.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

T6. Clive Sheldon KC, of 11 King’s Bench Walk chambers, submitted his Lessons Learned report on the AJAX programme to the Ministry of Defence some four months ago. We are told that it is still undergoing a “fact-checking” process, but there are growing rumours that some people who are adversely implicated in the report are trying to water it down or even suppress its publication. As the Secretary of State personally commissioned the report, and as it is his birthday today, and as this is, I think, my fourth time of asking, will he please give us all a birthday present and tell us when the report will actually be published?

Ukraine

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Thursday 11th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

The right hon. Gentleman consistently asks about this matter, and he is right that we have to keep restocking ourselves. Some of the restocking has started, including the next-generation light anti-tank weapons, if Members remember the very first gifting—that restocking started a few months ago—and the low and high-velocity anti-aircraft missiles. I am hoping to be able to inform the House in June that we have placed a long and enduring contract in the UK to replace our 155 mm shells. One thing that this conflict exposes is that we need those types of fires available. Restocking is important, and in the autumn the Treasury gave me £560 million for some of that refurbishment, but there was also other funding in the latest Budget, which I will of course make sure is spent on keeping our forces refurbished.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

We have led western Europe in supplying kit to the Ukrainians—ably administered by MOD Defence Equipment and Support, it should be noted—but we have not yet sent jets, despite the fact that we have a squadron of tranche 1 Typhoons sitting in a hangar and despite the fact that in Westminster Hall recently, President Zelensky very publicly called for us to do so. The Secretary of State knows from his own experience that when the long-awaited counter-attack begins, those Ukrainian brigades must have local air superiority over the battlefield to succeed, and what is left of the Ukrainian air force is far too small for it to do that on its own. As such, can I ask him specifically what we are doing, first to send jets, and secondly to encourage other western allies to send MiG-29s, F-16s or even A-10s to Ukraine? It would be a tragedy, literally, if the counter-offensive ran out of momentum because it lacked air support.

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend is right to talk about how we maintain momentum and about the need for air support because, of course, while Russia’s army has been very badly decimated, a significant part of its air force remains in a good condition. Therefore, it is vital that that air attack potential is minimised.

On particular jets, we offered the Ukrainians training on Typhoons, as my right hon. Friend will know. I recently received a letter turning that off as a request and asking us for support on the F-16, which of course we do not hold. However, I would encourage anybody to gift F-16s to help the Ukrainians. In the meantime, we already use some of our funding and support to buy spares for the likes of the MiGs and everything else, if that is required, because the other challenge this year is going to be sustainability. A lot of equipment has been gifted and huge numbers of Russian tanks have been captured. If we can refurbish and sustain them, that is the best and quickest way for Ukraine to continue its fight, so we need to keep its air force flying. On the F-16s, I am very happy to encourage any of my colleagues to donate them, and if they do, we will happily move them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 13th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

I would point the hon. Lady’s constituents to the 2010 National Audit Office report on her Government which gave some really interesting clues about why procurement was so bad. It said that the Department under her Government contracted for aircraft carriers when it knew that that was not affordable. Or perhaps I could point her to the Public Accounts Committee, then chaired by the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge), who said:

“Delays and cancellations to programmes”—

this is about the land systems under her Government—

“have resulted in gaps in armoured vehicle capability that will not be filled until 2025.”

There are lots of clues for the hon. Lady’s constituents—she should direct them to those reports.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

T8. May I, too, say that it is great to see you back in your place, Madam Deputy Speaker?I will try to keep this brief for the Secretary of State. The Clive Sheldon KC review of management information surrounding Ajax has been with the Department for over a month, I think. Given its importance, can the Minister guarantee, first, that it will be published by the Easter recess, and secondly, that it will be published fully unredacted?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I will do a deal with him if he admits that that is not the only example: we have all made strategic errors in our defence policies in the last two decades, because the Treasury has worked in the short term, so we have hollowed out the company. Government after Government have wanted more but have not wanted to fund it—his Government were no different, as I know, because I was serving in the Army under them.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

The Ajax programme has been so controversial that the Secretary of State personally commissioned an independent review by Clive Sheldon KC into the flow of information surrounding it. Has he yet received that report? When does he intend to publish it? Can he promise the House that he will do so in full and unredacted?

[Mr Wallace]

I am informed by the Minister for Defence Procurement that the report is coming imminently, which I hope means in a few weeks, not months. I will read it and then, of course, I will make sure that, at the very least, the findings are shared with the House. I am happy to have a discussion with the Defence Committee about how much we can share with it, subject to any security concerns.

The good news is that Ajax is now starting the next phase of trials. As I have always said, I am determined to fix that troubled programme. We are now on the way to getting it through the next most important trials, after its having passed its user viability trials up to Christmas. I am trying to fix that programme and get it delivered. At the same time, I am delighted to learn the lessons.

Ukraine: Update

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

On Belarus, it has been interesting that it seems Putin’s most loyal ally has still not committed his forces. That speaks volumes. I think the neighbours are sensing quite how weak Putin in one sense has become. When the bully is no longer able to bully in the playground, we start to see consequences in Kazakhstan and elsewhere. We have seen the Russians move units to Belarus and then back out again. We saw them recently carrying out training in those units, which is, I think, what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. Absolutely, we engage with Belarus. I think Belarus understands what further action would mean to its status in relation to Russia and, indeed, Ukraine. Ukraine does speak to Belarus, as does President Putin. No good would come of the addition of Belarus.

On the piecemeal claim, I understand that, but I mention the calibration that we are trying to achieve with what we are doing now. It is important that we do it as a coalition—together. The amazing thing about the support for Ukraine is that it includes a huge amount of bilateral arrangements. It is not, as Russia would like to accuse us of, a NATO-orchestrated event. It is not a proxy war. It is not an attack on Russia or Russia-phobia. Fundamentally, it is like-minded countries recognising the wrong that has gone on in that country and through the invasion and coming together. Russia would like us to believe all those other narratives—it is not about those. It is about defending a country to defend itself. What is great is how many countries around the world agree with upholding human rights and international law and want to come together to help.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the Secretary of State’s statement this afternoon, not least as the Ukrainians are now clearly fighting for our freedom as well as for their own. After what one might call a bruising encounter battle last week between departmental witnesses and the Defence Committee over the achingly slow re-equipment of our own British Army, I welcome the Secretary of State’s sense of urgency on that, too, but could he specifically declare some of our armoured fighting vehicle programmes, such as Boxer, the Challenger 3 upgrade and the Mobile Fires Platform, as urgent operational requirements? That would mean that we effectively cut all the usual procurement bureaucracy and bring those vital systems into service as soon as possible.

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend is as keen as I am to change the history on procurement. It is remarkable, when it comes to assisting Ukraine, how speedily we can get things into the field or adapt them, and how manufacturers seem magically to adapt things. There are lessons there. I had already started the process of accelerating the Challenger 3 programme last year—I did not want to take the gap in the middle of the decade —but of course, when we accelerate, we take risks. Nevertheless, I think that is important. I will definitely look at his suggestion, although the elephant in the room on the suggestion of accelerating procurement is His Majesty’s Treasury, which would have to reprofile the budget. As the time of the integrated review approaches, I shall engage with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

Ukraine

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Yes, I will. What is unifying us is the egregious breaches of international humanitarian law and international human rights laws that are going on before our eyes on the continent of Europe. That, in the end, must be dealt with through courts of law. The message we need to send is that there are two types of country: those that believe in the rule of law and will prosecute it to see justice done, and those that do not.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

As “Game of Thrones” taught us, winter is coming. While Putin has failed to defeat the Ukrainians militarily, he is now trying to freeze them into submission. I welcome what the Secretary of State said about 900 generators, which must help. When I visited Ukraine with the Chair of the Defence Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), and others, we heard pleas for more generator capacity, particularly for schools and hospitals. Will the MOD talk to Departments such as the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Treasury to co-ordinate the donation by businesses and companies of spare generators to Ukraine to keep the lights on and save lives?

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is always more that we can do. The international community has put in a lot of generators. I do not have the overall figure, but I can talk about the 900 that Defence and the UK have put in. In the non-military space, there is also a vast line of donations, with individuals and groups raising money and sending in equipment. I think that a group in Yorkshire raised money, donated some armoured ambulances and took them to Ukraine.

It is sometimes hard to have a track on exactly what is going on, but there is a vibrant community doing that and we will do everything we can to support it, including dealing with any blockages at the borders that may be unnecessary or bureaucratic, because speed is definitely of the essence. I can stand here as Secretary of State and talk about military aid, both lethal and non-lethal, but humanitarian aid and support for the economy are as important if we are to get through 2023. I will ensure that my colleagues in the Foreign Office are absolutely on it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 7th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

I am afraid that the right hon. Lady has obviously lapped up the Labour Front Benchers’ dodgy dossier on defence procurement. Of course, over half of the figure she used was under the previous Labour Government. Labour double-counted, including in that dossier, and indeed made no reference to the fact that the top 15 projects under Labour, in its last period of power, produced a £4.5 billion overspend and a 339-month out-of-date period for projects.

As I said, these are very complex processes. We often make sure that we try to meet the demand and the threat, but some of these projects last 20 years. We have made significant steps to change and reform that, and the right hon. Lady will be glad to know that this year—or last year and the year before—the MOD came in on budget for its overall budget, with a balanced budget for the first time for decades.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

The Type 26 frigate is literally a world-beating design, which we have exported to both Canada and Australia, and we all want to see it in service as soon as possible. So it is doubly disappointing that, last week, the Department issued a written ministerial statement to say her entry into service is now delayed a further year from October 2027 to October 2028 and the lifetime cost to the programme will be over a quarter of a billion pounds more of taxpayers’ money. Given the defence budget is likely to come under great pressure, why does it take BAE Systems 11 years to build a ship the Japs can build in four?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 18th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Yes. One strength of NATO is its adherence to standards across all the nations in it. At the moment, Ukraine is transiting from using Soviet era calibres and so on to using western weapons systems, which is why it is important to help train Ukraine in their application; they are not one in, one out—they need to be used differently. Having helped establish the international donor co-ordination centre near Stuttgart, Britain has added training into that, so we co-ordinate that properly. Most countries use that and engage, so that this is co-ordinated: we do not double book and we get this in the right place. I urge any other international partner who is thinking of offering training to co-ordinate through that system.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

The Ukrainians are putting up a valiant and skilful resistance against Russian aggression, but we understand that they are currently losing about 100 men a day, with many more wounded. Given that rate of casualties in modern warfare, and given that the integrated review was published long before the Russian invasion, does the Secretary of State agree with me and many other Conservative colleagues that the supposed 10,000 cuts in the Army, which the new Chief of the General Staff has called “perverse”, should not only be reviewed, but completely reversed?

[Mr Wallace]

As we can see from our Conservative colleagues, defence spending is a key priority in the leadership race, and I recommend to all leadership candidates who are wanting votes from Conservative Members that they recognise its importance. The threat has changed and it warrants more spending on defence, because the world is more dangerous and anxious than it was—not only when we had the defence Command Paper but before Putin invaded.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 10th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Desperate!

Let us start with the first point. The Sentinel is not an early-warning radar, which the E-7 Wedgetail is. If we are going to say that I retired one platform capability and replaced it with another, let us try to make sure that we replace it with the right type of capability, otherwise someone will be flying the wrong plane in the wrong place at the wrong time—but then I suppose we should not really be very surprised by Labour.

I entirely understand the NAO’s observations. There are, absolutely, a great many things to put right, and in putting them right, yes, we cancel programmes that we cannot afford, yes, we retire capabilities that should have been retired previously, because that is called putting your house in order. Otherwise, we end up with an NAO ruling that

“The MoD has a multi-billion-pound budgetary black hole which it is trying to fix with a ‘save now, pay later’ approach.”

That was the NAO’s report on the Labour Government in 2009, and the “pay later” is what we are now living with.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

I endorse everything that both Front Benchers said about Jack Dromey, but not everything that followed.

The Secretary of State and I have crossed swords before about procurement. As he knows, the Public Accounts Committee said that the system was broken. He kindly offered me a meeting last time we discussed this in the House, and he kept his word: he generously gave me an hour of his time, and we discussed it in detail. Following that, is there anything he would like to say to the House today about his plans to reform procurement in the Ministry of Defence?

[Mr Wallace]

As I have said, there are observations about defence procurement in all the NAO reports and also in those of Select Committees of both Houses, and it has been a running sore for many years. We have to fix some of those issues. The Minister for Defence Procurement, my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin), has come to the House time and again to talk about and expose the issues relating to Ajax, and has been honest and clear about the problems that we need to put right. I discussed with my right hon. Friend the need to ensure that our pricing estimates and the quality of our contracts are correct, so that risk is held in the right place. Both those issues are incredibly important. We also need a change in the culture of optimism bias: sometimes people want to gold-plate things when the good will do, rather than the perfect.

Army Restructuring: Future Soldier

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Thursday 25th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. The SNP talks a good game, but when it runs a shipyard it runs it into the ground by the looks of things. We should remember that.

On Scottish units and basing, since March, it has not been a secret that the overall size of the Army is shrinking, but the proportion of the Army in Scotland is going up from 5.1% to 5.5% of regulars. The Army is just one part of the armed forces, however, and there will be a net increase of approximately 600 regular personnel in Scotland. They will be made up of more Navy personnel as we have moved HMS Dolphin from Portsmouth to the Clyde for the training of submariners and a training centre there, and more RAF personnel in Lossiemouth when I base the E-7 early warning radar planes there. That means that there is an overall increase. If we add that together with all the elements of the reserves and the extras, about 14,500 forces of regulars and reserves will be based in Scotland, which is a significant amount.

As a Scot and a member of a Scottish regiment, let me say that the saving of Glencorse is also pleasing and will be a good thing for Scotland, as is the expansion of RAF Leuchars as another military base. I was determined to ensure that we still have the Army in the highlands, so the Royal Engineers will remain at Kinloss, which is a large base so there is extra room should we seek to put any more forces there. We will also have two Scottish regiments based in Scotland plus the cavalry regiment, the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, which is good for recruiting and for the economy in Scotland.

I also say to the hon. Gentleman that it might help our soldiers if the SNP did not tax them a bit higher than their English colleagues. They do not have a choice about where they are based; they are based where they are based.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman talked about courses and education. I hope that the Scottish Government sort out education in Scotland. As a Scot, let me say that education and financial stewardship were among Scotland’s proudest things, and both have failed on the SNP’s watch. The tragedy is that the children of our armed forces serving in Scotland face the consequences at those schools.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

The British Army cannot fight without effective kit, but the Public Accounts Committee has declared the MOD’s procurement system “broken”, which it is, and has described the General Dynamics Ajax programme as a catastrophe. The next debacle is the Morpheus programme to replace Bowman, which also has General Dynamics effectively in the lead, and is horribly late and going round in circles as Bowman becomes increasingly obsolescent. Will the Secretary of State take personal grip of Ajax and Morpheus? What steps is he taking to ensure that his officials who brief him on those programmes tell him the truth?

[Mr Wallace]

I do not disagree with my right hon. Friend’s observations about the troubled programmes of Ajax and Morpheus. Not knowing that he was going to ask the question, I had a meeting on Morpheus yesterday with officials. My Minister for Defence Procurement is close to all those issues to the extent of examining emails to make sure that we get to the bottom of the whole range of problems on issues such as Ajax.

A health and safety report is due to report soon; it is going through the Maxwellisation process. We will get to the bottom of not only what is happening to the programme and why it potentially damaged our soldiers’ hearing in the trials, but why we did not act on any of those reports over the timescale of the programme. In addition, I will leave no stone unturned in relation to how we apportion blame. I will consider external judicial, or perhaps former judicial, personnel to look at those issues, because it is really important not only that we are open about the challenges of the programme but that we fundamentally learn the lessons and people carry the can for some of their decisions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 15th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

The hon. Gentleman will have read the defence and security industrial strategy and, indeed, the reforms to the Treasury Green Book that allow me to put a premium on social value, including in respect of priorities such as levelling up and UK skills. I am determined that we make that clear in many of our interactions with industry. As a member of Unite, the hon. Gentleman will know that Unite represents not just workers at Leonardo in Yeovil but no doubt lots of workers in the aerospace industry in my part of the world up in Lancashire. We have a duty to make sure that we listen to all British workers, wherever they are.

On the new medium-lift helicopter contract, we are expecting a competition and will produce details of that for the House sooner rather than later. We expect the new medium-lift helicopter to come in by 2025.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

A fortnight ago, the all-party Public Accounts Committee published the most damning report it has ever produced on MOD procurement, including helicopter procurement. The report concluded:

“To meet the aspirations of the Integrated Review, the Department’s broken system for acquiring military equipment needs an urgent rethink, led by HM Treasury and the Cabinet Office.”

Given that not one of the top 36 MOD procurement programmes—worth £150 billion of taxpayers’ money—is fully on track, who, either at Abbey Wood or on the fifth floor of the MOD, is going to accept personal responsibility? When will the Secretary of State bring in the Cabinet Office to clean up the MOD’s mess?

[Mr Wallace]

I have read the report and, while it makes some very important points, I am sad to say that it is actually no different from the series of reports that I have read over decades. It is not any worse than some of the ones from 2008 and 2009. There are repeat problems, which is why, in seeking defence reforms, I have been determined to make sure that we get on top of these issues. [Interruption.] I distinctly remember the report that was delivered in 2010, which showed that, in one year under the Labour Administration, they spent £3 billion without even knowing where it was coming from. My right hon. Friend is right that there are lessons to be learned. We will get on it. I would be delighted to meet him to discuss what we think we can do. Many of the programmes referred to not only pre-date me and this ministerial team, but predate my right hon. Friend and his ministerial team and we need to make sure that we get on top of that issue. There are solutions to this, but we must also enforce tight timetables and then we will deliver.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wallace]

I understand the hon. Member’s concern, but I say to him first that we will publish our equipment programme soon, and that it is not the case that the projects are unfunded—that is an incorrect assertion. Like him, I am absolutely determined to get to grips with some of the issues. That is why we took some decisions to cancel or not proceed with programmes. We took some tough decisions to ensure that the equipment programme is affordable. It is also why the Prime Minister gave us a record capital departmental expenditure limit settlement for our equipment programme, to ensure that we can deliver the equipment for our forces.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Hello, it’s me again.

I will gladly take the Secretary of State up on his offer of a meeting about procurement, but there is an old Army saying: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. This is broke—it is official. This is the worst report on MOD procurement in living memory, Ben. We both know it is, so can we please do something about it and put it right?

Integrated Review: Defence Command Paper

Debate between Mark Francois and Ben Wallace

Monday 22nd March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Oh dear. I get the impression that no matter what I brought to the House today, that speech would have been trucked out. This is not the defence review that usually takes place in an environment of cuts. The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) is wrong: there is not a cut to the resource departmental expenditure limit over the four years. It is flat, or if not, there is a tiny increase in RDEL. That slightly undermines the desperate attempt to make £24 billion-plus look like some form of cut. He asked what impact that will have. First of all, he obviously got the Command Paper delivered electronically, but there should be an insert in the printed ones that shows that the figure is actually £1.5 billion, not £1.3 billion. The impact of that RDEL is obviously wraparound childcare for £1.4 billion over 10 years. That is a plus, in case anyone missed it from the tone of his speech.

When it comes to the MOD budget, I have been very honest in this House. I would admit the role that former Conservative Governments have taken in defence reviews, but I have never once heard the right hon. Gentleman own up at all, or admit that the Government he served in produced what the 2010 NAO audit report showed was £38 billion of overspend; it was £3 billion in the last year. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who is shouting, was himself a Minister in the MOD. I have never heard Labour Members say, “Under our Government, we delivered lots of regiments, but we delivered our soldiers into Snatch Land Rovers.” I have never heard them say with a sense of apology or humility that they took soldiers into war ill-equipped, ill-trained and often unable to make the peace. That is really important, because behind all this are the men and women of our armed forces.

We are trying to strike the balance between our ambition, the funding and looking after those people. In defence, we are all ambitious to do more around the world, but if I let my enthusiasm get away with me, I would end up hollowing out the equipment the men and women of the armed forces have, and that is no legacy to leave those people. That is why, in this blueprint for a future force, we are almost setting out two parts of our forces: forces for war fighting, and forces to prevent conflict or help rebuild countries afterwards. We know we can win the conflict, because we usually do it with allies, and we can deploy our armoured divisions or brigades—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) is wrong. In Telic I, it was not a division but two armoured brigades—16 Air Assault and 3 Commando Brigades—that deployed.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

A Russian armoured division has three brigades.

[Mr Wallace]

If my right hon. Friend wants to see what happened to a Russian armoured division, he should look what happened in Syria last year, in the weeks when 172 tanks were wiped out by Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles. I wonder what comfort that would have been to the 3,000 Syrian soldiers—fighting for the wrong regime, however—who no doubt thought that somehow their mass gave them protection. [Interruption.] They were Russian.

In the China-Russia war I think it was, a British officer went to observe and saw the machine gun being used for the first time, and his report back said, “They’re not British. We don’t need the machine gun,” and the rest was history. Therein lies the fault and the fallacy of defence reform. If we wrap ourselves in sentimentality, what we get is a betrayal of the men and women who go to fight.

On other points that the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne raised, we will go beyond the 48 F-35 fighters, and we will continue to purchase them until we have decided whether we have the right numbers to continue. We are on track to deliver the squadrons required as planned and to man our aircraft carriers. There will be no reduction in combat medics as a result of these reorganisations. He and I both know the importance of the role they have played in covid. Indeed, they are a key enabler that will be useful not only for ourselves, but when it comes to conflict prevention and winning the peace.

On the nuclear deterrent, we do not believe that the changes to the number of warheads in any way breach the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and that advice is backed up by the Attorney General. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman is correct about his party’s new-found love of the nuclear deterrent since his previous leader, or indeed since the shadow Foreign Secretary voted against renewing it, he will of course agree with me that a nuclear deterrent should be credible; otherwise, it would just be a massive waste of money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wallace]

First and foremost, when it comes to numbers, carriers used to take 1,800 members to crew them; they now take 800. That is simply the direction of travel with automation and modern equipment. Tanks and armoured vehicles often have less crew than they used to. That is a fact, and it is how some of the equipment has developed. It is therefore logical to understand that sometimes we need fewer people to achieve the same lethality, or sometimes even fewer people to achieve even more lethality. A battalion of the first world war is very different from a battalion of today, and that is blatantly obvious to anyone who looks at defence capabilities.

When it comes to the recruitment of special forces, two things will help: the development of a Ranger battalion and the future commando force, where we will increase the spending, training and equipment available to them. The basic training being around the areas that we might have seen the special forces doing 10, 15 or 20 years ago will be a great grounding. We also see that the reserve special forces regiments are becoming a very good recruiter for the regulars.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

The Defence Committee’s very unsentimental report on army procurement recently concluded:

“This report reveals a woeful story of bureaucratic procrastination, military indecision, financial mismanagement and general ineptitude, which have continually bedevilled attempts to properly re-equip the British Army over the last two decades.”

The Secretary of State’s statement did not mention the £400 million that has just been wasted by the cancellation of the Warrior upgrade. Taken with the TRACER—Tactical Reconnaissance Armoured Combat Equipment Requirement—programme and the FRES—Future Rapid Effects System—programme in the report, that is nearly three quarters of a billion pounds of British taxpayers’ money wasted by the Department for nothing. When will the Defence Secretary finally accept that procurement is the Achilles heel of the MOD? Although I do not agree with Labour that the whole Department should be put in special measures, Defence Equipment and Support undoubtedly should, because it is a basket case, and until we solve it, the rest of the review is a waste of time.

[Mr Wallace]

I read that report—of reports I have read in my time, I think I would give it one out of 10. [Interruption.] First of all, four members of that Committee accumulated over a decade in the Department that bought the armoured vehicles. There was no sense whatsoever about that irony in the criticism I just heard from my right hon. Friend—none at all. [Interruption.] Since I got into the Department, the first thing I did was commit to signing up Boxer, which had not been done. It had sat on the shelf for a bit. I made sure we developed Boxer, signed it up and got it delivered, and it is going to be made in the United Kingdom in a partnership between BAE and Rheinmetall. I took decisions—he may not like the decisions—about the Warrior upgrade programme. It had been, as he knows, wandering around for many, many years, including the years that he was in the Department. TRACER, if he remembers as far back as I do, was cancelled by the United States, of which we had been a partner in the mid-90s. FRES, if he remembers—I am sure he does, but it does not seem to appear in the report—was affected by the changes to the attacks on personnel by the proliferation of basic anti-armour capability into the hands of the likes of the Taliban. That is why FRES had to be up-armoured, changed in size and changed in scale—the threat changed. [Interruption.] He might not have liked the consequence, but would he rather—I was not in that Department, and I am sure this would be his defence when he was in the Department—have progressed with an inadequate vehicle, where soldiers got killed, or took the decision to potentially cancel it and move on? The Boxer—

[Mr Francois]

I was not in the Department—you don’t know what you’re talking about.