Breathing Space Scheme: Consultation Response

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I have probably mistimed this but the Minister, who is well known for his quickness on his feet in debate and for his ability to spin out of absolutely nothing a brilliant joke, may have slightly overstepped himself. When he tried to pay tribute to the work done on the Bill, he got himself to the point where he could use the wonderful phrase, “Young and Freud did it”. In fact, it was the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, who took the Bill through this House, with his great co-piloting. The dual team was indeed a dream team and we had a great time. The noble Baroness also got the issue that we are trying to get very well. She did a lot of work behind the scenes and I pay tribute to that.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. There are so many Bills going through the House on which my services are sometimes required that I may have muddled them up. My noble friend Lady Buscombe is not a great philosopher, unlike my noble friend Lord Freud. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for putting the record straight and pay tribute to the work that my noble friend did. I know that she worked extremely hard to get consent and was as generous as she could be—within the constraints, as he will understand—in bending government policy to accept opposition amendments.

Public Procurement and the Civil Society Strategy

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 23rd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My understanding is that it is advisory, because it was not included in the mandated list I just read out. If I am wrong I will write to the noble Lord.

The noble Lord asked why the strategy guidance has not been issued and whether we will produce a quick guide on it. We actually published guidance on how to work with central government, including social value, working with the VCSE Crown representative Claire Dove. The DCMS and the Cabinet Office are working with the advisory panel to understand the needs of the sectors and to prepare for the changes to social value. We will work with the sector representative bodies to produce the guidance the noble Lord just asked for.

The noble Lord asked for an annual report on social value procurement. Again, in his announcement in June last year the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster included a requirement for central government departments to report on social value.

I was asked why large government contracts are out of scope for social value procurement. The answer is that the balanced scorecard is already in place to cover procurement of over £10 million. That already covers socioeconomic factors. The new social value framework covers everything below £10 million and above the Public Contracts Regulations threshold.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

On that point, use of large construction contracts was particularly mentioned. Could the noble Lord take that back and consider it further? The point is not so much the value of the goods and services concerned, but the point made by the Equality and Human Rights Commission—that the impact on employment and the way it is inclusive of a diversity of employees and on apprenticeships and training is so great that the sheer numeric value cut-off was limiting the effect of the social value Act. Would he consider that again?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I will reflect on that. I understand exactly the point that the noble Lord makes and that there would be value in extending it upwards. Perhaps I will write to him when I have taken advice on that.

We would be very happy to discuss the network of social value champions with partners in the sector.

One of the main themes emerging from the debate has been the need for the Government to encourage as wide a range of suppliers as possible to deliver the objectives we have been discussing. We remain fully committed to supporting small and medium-sized enterprises and the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector, and indeed helping the mutuals that my noble friend referred to. Our work with sector bodies and individual companies through the Crown representative network will continue, unlocking more opportunities for smaller businesses and those owned by underrepresented groups, as well as mutuals and charities.

Initiatives around prompt payment, simpler bidding processes, better visibility of opportunities in the supply chain and the Public Procurement Review Service have all been established to stimulate SMEs and VCSE organisations as the lifeblood of the economy. Our approach underpins this. I understand the point made by my noble friend Lady Finn and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about prompt payment. I believe prompt payment is a condition of any public sector contract. If a contractor does not promptly pay he runs the risk of being removed from the list of approved contractors. I was interested in the noble Lord’s suggestion that the Small Business Commissioner might have his energies harnessed in this area. I will certainly reflect on that.

With the Crown representative for VCSEs we are producing supporting guidance for smaller organisations bidding as part of consortia, and have helped buyers to better understand how they can level the playing field for SMEs and VCSEs in our introductory guidance on the social value Act. In line with best practice in policy-making, we are piloting the outline framework to see how it will be applied in practice and to help formulate the guidance on evaluating bids fairly and consistently. Two of these pilots are for major national contracts and one is a national framework agreement. Let me be clear that, in doing so, the Government are absolutely committed to ensuring it does not add complexity or cost to the procurement process. We do not want to restrict markets or exclude small businesses and voluntary, community and social enterprise organisations from government contracts.

It is always the misfortune of the Opposition spokesman to have the answers to his questions arrive right at the end of a debate. I am afraid that misfortune has fallen once again on the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I will convert the handwritten notes I have in front of me into something legible and typed up and write to the noble Lord to deal with the issues he raised about instilling social value procurement, what steps we are taking to create a standard definition, how this will link to the public sector equality duty, which is an important point that he raised, and how we will make Whitehall a leading partner in social procurement.

We want to see more good practice and to accelerate the opportunities available for the UK’s small businesses and VCSEs. In the words of I think my noble friend Lady Finn, we want to put social values at the heart of service delivery. This new approach is the next step in our journey of transforming how the Government are delivering smarter, more thoughtful and effective public services. We will utilise our huge purchasing power to deliver on our promise of a fairer society that works for everyone.

Economy: Productivity Measurement

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to see the noble Lord in his place, particularly when he is straying off-piste. He mentioned some of the issues raised in Professor Haskel’s book but he did not touch on the key point raised by my noble friend Lord Haskel, which is that the new technologies do not rely on physical goods but on a different type of trading, which involves platforms, brands and algorithms. What work is being done to try to make sure that that aspect of the new technologies is being caught? The second point made in that excellent book is that people measuring productivity seem to ignore the productivity of which we in this country are very proud of, in making real progress in education and health. Those things are not even counted in GDP.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right to say that productivity in education and health has gone up. Over the past few years, productivity growth in the public sector, which had been 0.2% for the past 19 years, grew to 1.4% in 2016. We have had six successive years of improving productivity in the public sector, and health and education lead the field. The noble Lord is quite right in his other point about intangible assets. We are putting a lot of work into measuring intangible assets. This has a key impact on productivity, for example, in the information and communications sector and in the science sector. Along with investment in software and R&D, intellectual capital training is also an important intangible. It is one of the most important ones, followed by organisational capital.

Interserve

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

There is no reason why trade creditors of Interserve should lose any money. The hit was taken by the shareholders and the lenders who wrote off their debt and converted it into equity. The subsidiary companies providing goods and services to the public and private sectors are wholly unaffected by what has happened to the parent company, which has simply changed ownership. The creditors of the subsidiary companies are in exactly the same position as they were before the transaction over the weekend.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I will pick up that issue. This is a pre-pack administration, is it not? In a pre-pack, the people who lose out are the trade creditors and the people who survive are the owners of the original company, who walk away with a new company unencumbered by the debts its previous creditors allowed. How can the Minister defend that? As my noble friend said, this involves thousands of SMEs, which will lose jobs and supply of cash, and be worse off. The Government reviewed this whole process in 2014. They accepted the recommendation of the Graham review to take powers in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 to make sure that pre-packs were properly regulated. What is the progress on that?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

On the first point, it is important to understand that Interserve was in two halves. The subsidiary companies provided services to the public and private sectors, looking outwards towards the market, whereas the parent company looked backwards at the shareholders and the banks that were lending it money. What happened over the weekend was that the parent company went into administration and immediately, as the noble Lord said, went into a pre-pack and is now owned, in effect, by the lenders. It is the banks of those lenders, not the trade creditors, which are out of pocket as a result of the transaction.

I will write to the noble Lord on the second question, because it affects another department.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Clydesdale Bank

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place in response to an Urgent Question. The overall impression one gets from listening to him is a sense of slight panic in the Government’s ranks and an attempt to try to catch up with a situation that seems to have got out of control. It has been understood for some time that the way that our banks deal with SMEs has been a cause of real concern, and there was also an issue about whether there was an appropriate way of getting redress on a fair and appropriate basis. Some of what he said is helpful—I acknowledge that. However, I still wonder why it took the Government quite a number of months—in fact, almost years—to change from limiting the redress from microenterprises to SMEs; after all, we believe that SMEs are the future of much of our economic growth in this country. There is still the question of whether historic cases are being dealt with on a voluntary basis. Is that really the case? On what basis will the Lending Standards Board, which he mentioned, be able to act? Will that also be on a voluntary basis? If the answer is yes, when can we expect to see the regulatory framework?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response. It makes sense to wait for the expansion of the financial ombudsman’s scheme, which I and he referred to, and which comes into effect next month. I also believe that the two voluntary schemes to which he referred are better than the alternative—a statutory independent tribunal, which the Treasury Select Committee considered. We gave that serious consideration, but agreed with Simon Walker’s conclusion that that would not be the right approach. It would involve primary legislation, setting up a tribunal and probably costs for the SMEs that wished to access it. I think a dispute resolution system, as outlined, would be much quicker, much less expensive and not constrained by a narrow interpretation of the law. An ombudsman could see whether a contract was fair and reasonable, for example.

The noble Lord asked whether the standard lending practice was voluntary. Yes, it is a voluntary scheme. It sets the benchmark for good lending practice in the UK, outlining the way registered firms are expected to deal with their customers throughout the entire product life. We believe that this is the right approach to resolving complaints, but we have not ruled out other options if it does not deliver.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

If there was inaction for the past six years, that covers a period when we were both Ministers together in the coalition Government. The noble Baroness asked whether it was fair to ask people to wait. What we propose would bring a swifter solution to those who have already waited a long time—as I agree—than the alternative of a statutory scheme which, as I said, requires primary legislation, regulations controlling SME lending, which is not regulated at the moment, and then possibly expensive access to the tribunal through legal representation for SMEs.

The banks have a good record of observing the recommendations of the financial ombudsman scheme, so we should let them have the opportunity to show that they will also honour the recommendations of the two schemes being announced today, which will be up and running in the autumn—far sooner than a statutory scheme.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

As there is a gap, I return to ask another question. Am I right in my assumption that the Minister would accept that the issue that has given rise to this Question is not limited to one bank: there is a broader, possibly systemic issue affecting the way in which banks relate to SMEs? Taking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, does he think it might be worth looking further at some of the measures used by the banks to attract new customers, particularly interest rate exchange mechanisms, which seem very complicated and difficult to understand? They involved swapping of rates, which was not perhaps fully disclosed to those borrowing the money, and the question of tailor-made loans, the details of which were also rather obscure.

One would be tempted to suggest that an element of criminality was sometimes drawn into those issues, for which a voluntary scheme will be hopelessly inappropriate. As the noble Baroness said, perhaps it is necessary to have a properly organised review carried out by, say, the FCA, to ensure that the practices driving those issues are driven out.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I recognise that there are more cases than the one that has generated the interest. There has been a lot of press interest in some RBS schemes. Looking at the FCA estimates, we estimate that the expansion in eligibility for the FOS scheme will result in no more than an additional 1,300 cases from businesses on top of the existing 6,000 cases from microenterprises. To put that in context, the employment tribunal received over 109,000 cases in the financial year. We think the FCA’s planned expansion of the FOS to include small businesses is the right and proportionate response. We look forward to the next steps and to these vital pieces.

The noble Lord then asked me a number of questions about the incentive loans or interest rates that banks sometimes offer and some of their other practices. I am not sure whether they fall precisely under the remit I have just announced but, if the noble Lord will permit, I will write to him when I have received further clarification.

Interserve: Provision of Public Services

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 12th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

On the first point, I made inquiries to Interserve about the suppliers: 90% are paid within 60 days or less. The Government have now insisted that, where they place new contracts with suppliers, there is a contingency plan to take effect if and when that contract runs into difficulties. Interserve, along with four other companies, is piloting this new arrangement, which was introduced post the problems with Carillion.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the real problems is that more than 20% of government procurement now goes to a small number of strategic suppliers, a figure that has doubled since 2013? The top three suppliers are all having financial problems. After Carillion, a new system was introduced, which I think the Minister was referring to; rather surreally, it is called “living wills”. Has this been completed for Interserve—he mentioned a pilot—and can he reassure the House that no new contracts will be offered to Interserve until such time as the miracle of the new company emerges, and that public services delivered by Interserve will be continued without the cost penalty of £148 million which occurred after Carillion?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right. On 19 November, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made a speech to the BSA outlining new arrangements. The noble Lord referred to some of them; we prefer to call them resolution plans rather than living wills. We have recently announced plans for all suppliers to draw up resolution plans in the unlikely event of a business failure, to ensure continuity of services and, where necessary, to enable another provider or the Government themselves to step in. Interserve has volunteered to lead the way as one of the first suppliers to design one of these resolution plans.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we have Amendment 75 in this group, and I shall speak to it briefly. It is a gentle prod to the Government that in the clause that deals with commencement there is an extensive list of the various sections that come into play. Then at the top of the next page is just a general provision stating:

“The other provisions of this Act come into force on a day appointed by regulations”.


No date is given for that. It would be helpful if the Government could urge themselves to do a bit a more than just leave it open that regulations will come forward at some future date. A lot of what we have been talking about in this area would be helped if there was urgent action, and the urgency should apply to the regulations that need to come forward as well. I hope that will be well received by the Government at this point.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has done another good service to us in bringing forward a possible lacuna in the approach being taken by the Government. It fits in with the various sensible amendments that I have been tabling, asking the Government to look again at the way in which the financing arrangements for debt advice in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland operate. I sense that there is also an issue around CMCs that needs a response. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, Amendments 74 and 76, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, seek to extend Part 2 to Scotland. I am grateful to him for the way he set out the case for this extension. The Government carefully considered the scope of claims management regulation during the development of this policy. The current framework for claims management regulation, set out in the Compensation Act 2006, limits the extent of claims management regulation to England and Wales only and this will remain the case as we transfer regulation to the FCA. The matter is currently reserved, so we cannot simply make regulations to devolve the matter to the Scottish Government.

In reaching this decision, the Government had a dialogue with the Scottish Government to establish their view. Their view, as outlined in correspondence from the Scottish Business Minister, was that there is limited evidence of malpractice by CMCs in Scotland, and they concluded that extending the scope of claims management regulation would be unnecessary and disproportionate. That view is clearly challenged, and is about to be challenged again.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 65 and 66. They bear on the financing arrangements for the new single financial guidance body. We have talked about how the money is to be raised and the change from the current arrangements, with a move away from a straight levy system within the financial sector to an arrangement whereby money goes to the Government and into the Consolidated Fund before being paid out in grants.

The amendments are not meant to be taken word for word, but probe the way in which the case for this funding is built up. Amendment 64 would make sure that the single financial body did not underestimate the amount of money it would require by virtue of not having sufficient information to hand about the costs that it would be likely to have to meet given the aspirations for it. An earlier amendment referred to assessing this on the basis of the likely number of those in need of financial advice being the main element in building up the funding envelope. Obviously, there is difficulty in trying to assess that. This amendment adds a little more in terms of the consultation and guidance.

It would be to the advantage of the Bill if it provided for a little more accountability for the funding received. We set out in the amendments the specifics, which may well be covered by other points that the Minister may raise when she responds. At the moment, there is nothing very much in Bill about monitoring the use of the funding and making sure that the information gathered is published, particularly for Parliament, so that due scrutiny can take place.

Amendment 66 deals with how funding is to be established for the national regions. There is nothing exceptional in what is being said in terms of the mechanics—I am sure that the Bill is drafted with due concern for the proprieties involved. A number of the bodies that will be in partnership with the SFGB, or funded by it, already operate in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and offer direct services themselves. If the Treasury is to get information on that, as is specified in Clause 11(1), it will need information which it is not clear that it will be able to get—or, if it is, I have not spotted it—on the costs and expenses of the existing bodies operating existing services in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and how that matches what the devolved Parliaments think should be spent there. There is a lacuna there on which I look forward to hearing a response. I beg to move.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, it is the co-pilot again. I thank the noble Lord for tabling these amendments to Clauses 8 and 11. Clause 8 provides for the Secretary of State to give financial assistance to the single financial guidance body; Clauses 9 and 10 provide for those expenses to be recovered respectively from the levy on pension schemes and through the financial services levy.

At Second Reading and in earlier Committee debates, the noble Lord has questioned this funding framework and the money trail, suggesting that it represents a fundamental change in the way in which things are done currently and that it would radically alter the way in which people operate, particularly in respect of the services provided by MAS. I am not sure that the changes are that fundamental, but, in any case, we think that they are both necessary and beneficial.

One criticism of MAS made by the Farnish review was that it lacked accountability for the activities it delivered and the money spent. As the noble Lord suggested, we need to learn lessons from our experience with MAS. These funding clauses provide a basis for strong accountability and governance arrangements. We want the body to have a clear focus on undertaking its statutory functions. As happens now with the existing organisations, the body will prepare an annual business plan setting out its planned activities and the associated budget required to deliver its proposals. That plan will be discussed and agreed with the DWP.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I have some in-flight refuelling. We are working with the devolved authorities on a final agreement and will write with more detail once discussions with the devolved authorities are completed.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Gosh—that was worth waiting for! I look forward to any information that can be provided on a more direct basis, preferably soon, but I think we have covered enough ground there.

Finally, some good points were made about the need for flexible funding solutions when there are crises, and I would like to read those in Hansard. This is very recent history, so it will be in the forefront of the minds of the bodies concerned. When the FCA was going through an accreditation process regarding debt management companies, it became fairly clear that about 50% of them were going to go out of business, leaving many people with debt management plans paid for through these commercial companies, but which those companies were going to withdraw from. MAS was able to organise substantial additional funding to all the bodies concerned to cope with that. That would not neatly fit into an annual financial cycle, so it is important that we have flexibility at the edges. I am completely open to that being done by government grant or by the holding of reserves, but it is important that it be built into the systems. However, as long as that point has been taken, and I gather it has been, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, it is well past my bedtime and I will therefore be very brief. I think I can be. I was going to say that these are two sides of the same coin but there are three amendments. Let us be imaginative and say they are grouped around a common theme, which is again to get on record the idea that the work that is going on either directly or through the SFGB must ensure that the services delivered are free at the point of use. That is the main point of Amendment 45, which restricts the operations to,

“companies which are established for charitable or not-for-profit purposes”.

It may be argued, and I think I would accept, that many companies operate in a way that has different branches and it may be that the particular branch which deals with, for example, debt advice might be a not-for-profit operation. Provided it is understood that the advice is always free, the actual status of the company is probably of a lesser order and I would understand if the Minister were of a mind to mention that in his very brief response.

Amendment 46 deals with how the objective attaching to the SFGB also applies to the overall system, in the sense that it would be perverse if the arrangements were such that the initial interactions with the partners and organisations working with the SFGB were free at the point of use but these were also referring clients to profit-seeking or charging operations. This is primarily a probing amendment but, again, I am looking to make sure that the advice circle is complete by retaining this free-at-the-point-of-use idea.

Amendment 47 picks up the possibility that with regard to the general governance arrangements that are set in place—which the Secretary of State has responsibility for, as we have learned this evening—the FCA may have an involvement but the single financial guidance body certainly has an arrangement for making sure that governance is properly arranged and the level of accountability is appropriate. One might ask why that was necessary but it would be a rhetorical question and I do not expect a lengthy response. Given that the delivery partners are being supervised by the FCA in most cases, and certainly where clients’ money is concerned, it is a requirement that they be authorised by the FCA. Given that most of these are charities and therefore also subject to the regulatory requirements of the Charity Commission, it is unlikely that the SFGB would be in a situation where governance arrangements were falling short of absolutely perfect. Again, reassurance from the Minister would be most welcome. I beg to move.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for moving Amendment 45 and then demolishing it, which saves me the task of so doing. I confirm that we are absolutely clear that any help funded by the new body will be free at the point of use. The difficulty we have with his amendment is that it may be appropriate for the body to enter into arrangements with organisations which provide free-to-client advice but also make a profit elsewhere. He made it clear that as long as it is free at the point of use to the client, he was relaxed. That deals with that amendment.

Turning to Amendment 46, we agree it is important that delivery partners refer members of the public to additional help when they are unable to provide the information themselves. The difficulty with the amendment is that it prevents delivery partners referring members of the public to the most relevant source of help in the first instance. For example, if a member of the public needs legal advice, we do not believe that delivery partners should be obliged, as the amendment requires, to refer that individual back to the SFGB. They should be free to refer that person for appropriate legal advice.

Finally, I may need to write to the noble Lord on Amendment 47. Given the SFGB’s relationship with government, it would be inconsistent with the precedent set by other arm’s-length bodies if the sponsoring department sought to interfere with, or have direct involvement in, the contractual arrangements that the body seeks to enter into. But I assure the noble Lord that as an arm’s-length body the SFGB will be required to comply with government policy on public procurement. The sponsoring department will support the SFGB in dealing effectively with any issues that may arise in the area of delivery partner governance and accountability. If the noble Lord wants more information on that, I would be very happy to drop him a line. Against that background and given the hour, I hope he will be able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the Minister for his comments and his brevity. Hansard will have an interesting time trying to unscramble all our mixed-up shorthand for the body that is still yet to have a name. I wish we would get a name quickly and then we would not have to worry about “F”, “S”, “G” and “B”, and my teeth falling out. I will read Hansard very carefully, and I am sure that any additional information that might be provided by letter will be most welcome. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.