Constitutional Convention

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

For once, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for intervening because he has reminded me of that, and we should keep reminding the people of Scotland that it was the SNP that helped to bring down Jim Callaghan’s Government and gave us Margaret Thatcher and a Tory Government for nearly 18 years.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Not in Wales.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Where was I? As a result, nothing was done by that Government and some of us felt that the opportunity had been lost. However, after some reflection, the campaign was revived and, although unfortunately we were not able to persuade the Thatcher Government to act, we came up with a very novel idea, which will be the central part of my argument today. It was that the Labour Opposition should take the initiative in setting up a convention.

Therefore, Labour, with the support of the Liberal Democrats, I am glad to say, along with the Greens and the Communist Party, set up the unique Scottish Constitutional Convention, consisting of all Scottish MPs, Peers and party and union representatives, as well as the Churches—one of the Church representatives, Canon Kenyon Wright, chaired the executive of the constitutional convention—and representatives from all civil society. The purpose was to devise a plan for a Scottish Parliament. In spite of subsequent claims to the contrary, neither the SNP nor the Tory party supported the convention officially, although, to their credit, individual Tories and nationalists did.

The report of that convention became the blueprint for the Scottish Parliament—almost every detail in the report was incorporated into the Bill for setting it up—and it enabled the Labour Government elected in 1997 speedily to introduce legislation to do so. It showed what can be done if all sections of society come together early on. Rather than legislation starting from a blank sheet of paper once a Government were elected, we had that blueprint.

That Scottish Parliament, as we know, has now been operating for nearly 20 years. Together with the subsequent Welsh Assembly and the revival of the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont, despite its recent suspension, it has given substantial, though variable, administrative and legislation devolution—perhaps best described as asymmetric devolution—to those three parts of the United Kingdom. But, as the House of Lords Constitution Committee rightly and wisely reported in 2016, that leaves England,

“the largest, most powerful nation in the UK … without separate recognition and … representation”.


It has also produced some anomalies. The late Tam Dalyell—although an opponent of devolution, he was my friend—used to argue that, as a Westminster MP, he was able to vote on education in Blackburn, Lancashire, but not in Blackburn, West Lothian, which he represented. It was useful for two towns to have the same name for him to make that comparison. That anomaly became known as the West Lothian question.

As we know, David Cameron tried to deal with the legislative democratic deficit faced by England with the unfortunately titled English votes for English laws, or EVEL—that is E-V-E-L, or maybe not—which has restricted non-English MPs from voting on purely English Bills at certain stages. However, a recent report from Queen Mary University concludes that it has not answered the West Lothian question decisively. It has instead opened up a series of new and equally intractable questions. It has been a damp squib at best, but is perhaps better described as a spectacular failure.

Only the kind of coherent and comprehensive devolution I am arguing for can resolve it. That brings me to administrative devolution, where—as my noble friend Lady Quin reminded me just yesterday—the English regions feel as alienated from Whitehall as Scotland did and does. Here there has been what might be called an à la carte menu—more like a dog’s breakfast—of different schemes with catchy titles such as northern powerhouse, metro mayors, city deals and Midlands engine. All this has resulted in a piecemeal pattern, with most of the powers still residing in Whitehall. For example, the northern powerhouse—as we heard earlier at Question Time, the mayor of Liverpool has resigned from it in protest—was described by the Institute for Public Policy Research last week as,

“a top-down agenda dominated by central government”.

Of course, much of rural England is outside this network and feels increasingly left behind. The disparity in fiscal devolution is reflected by the control of revenue. The Scottish Parliament now controls 43% of tax revenues, Wales 21% and Northern Ireland 14%, while English local authorities trail behind, collecting only 9% of their revenue.

The challenge is how to produce a more coherent and comprehensive, but not necessarily uniform—that is an important qualification—system of devolution for the whole of the United Kingdom, which addresses the English democratic deficit. Some argue in favour of an English parliament, which may be attractive for legislation but does not deal with the demand for administrative decentralisation to the regions. Various attempts to start regional devolution in England—including my noble friend Lord Prescott’s plan, which died with the failed referendum in the north-east of England—have perished because Whitehall departments clung on to the real powers. They kept the real powers and would not allow them to go to the proposed regions. Nor, of course, does that deal with legislation.

The clue to solving this conundrum lies in looking at the example of the Scottish Constitutional Convention I described earlier, which is why I strongly support setting up a UK constitutional convention to come forward with a coherent and comprehensive plan. It could advise on how decision-making can best be devolved administratively and legislatively, where appropriate, throughout England as well as the rest of the United Kingdom.

The Labour Party is committed to setting up such a convention, but only when elected, and the Liberal Democrats support such a convention to move towards a federal or quasi-federal UK. Robert Hazell of the Constitution Unit supports a similar convention to build cross-party consensus, and advocates a high level of public engagement, which I hope we can all agree is essential. Others involved in this issue, including the Constitution Society, argue for and support the idea of a constitutional convention.

Such a structure could enable those of us—I know it is not all of us—who seek reform of the second Chamber to replace the House of Lords with an indirectly elected senate of the nations and regions. It would have some democratic legitimacy, but would not challenge the primacy of the directly elected House of Commons.

I am glad that we have one of the more flexible and powerful Ministers answering the debate today—flattery will get me everywhere, I hope, but it is true. I hope he will agree to look at setting up such a convention. I know he cannot give us an immediate answer but I hope he will take it to his colleagues. However, if the present Government refuse to set up a convention, I do not see why it cannot be done now by Labour and the other opposition parties, working together with Churches and civil society, as we did in Scotland. I have suggested this to my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition on two or three occasions now. That way, we would have a blueprint ready to implement when we return to power—as inevitably we will. It was done by an enlightened Scottish Labour Party in the 1990s. Where Scotland led, surely the UK can follow.

Electoral Commission

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Does the Minister accept that, in extremis, there can be circumstances in which the behaviour of a party in a referendum can distort the outcome of that referendum? In those circumstances, what redress is there?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I refer the noble Lord to the reports of the Electoral Commission and UCL, which came out yesterday. They both say that they do not believe that the irregularities we have referred to would necessarily have affected the outcome of the referendum.

European Union Referendum

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think there were many reasons why people voted as they did in the referendum. There was worry that globalisation had passed a number of communities by. There was concern about immigration and the perceived threat to independence and sovereignty. There were homegrown reasons why people voted as they did, wholly independent of the sort of influences that the noble Lord referred to. If one looks at the potential involvement of Russia, the number of tweets involved in no way accounted for the 1.3 million people who voted for leave rather than remain. My noble friend Lord Ashton responded to the debate last night excellently.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that, when he stood for 10 or 11 elections and won them in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, had he been found to have overspent to any material extent, his seat would been forfeited and he himself or someone else would have had to refight that election? Does that principle apply to referenda?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I believe that we should respect the result of the referendum. A number of inquiries are going on into the referendum, which have been referred to. The Electoral Commission is looking into a number of allegations. It makes sense to await the outcome to see whether those allegations are upheld, but I have seen nothing that would account for the very substantial difference in the numbers who voted leave rather than remain.

Brexit: Devolved Administrations

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in discussion with the devolved Administrations relating to the establishment of an agreed intergovernmental forum between Westminster and the devolved Governments to decide on appropriate competence for powers relating to devolved functions repatriated from the European Union following Brexit.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) facilitates engagement and collaboration between the UK Governments and devolved Administrations on the UK’s exit from the European Union. Important progress was made at the most recent meeting on 16 October in agreeing a set of principles that will underpin the establishment of common frameworks as powers are repatriated from the EU. Following agreement of the principles at that committee, the Government are working with the devolved Administrations to make quick progress on the potential role for frameworks in some specific policy areas. The committee is due to meet again in December, ahead of the European Council.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, when repatriated powers return from Brussels over wholly devolved functions such as agriculture, those powers should be transferred automatically to the devolved Governments, but an intergovernmental mechanism should immediately be put in place to resolve any issues that might distort the UK single market? Does he accept that the fear in Cardiff and Edinburgh is that any such mechanism will deliver only token consultation, with substantive decisions being taken here at Westminster? Could he give an assurance that decision-making will be on the basis of unanimity or qualified majority voting within such a forum, as is currently the case for EU decisions taken in Brussels?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think those fears—that Westminster will hang on to all the powers that are repatriated from the EU—are misplaced. We want to release as much as we can to the devolved Administrations, consistent with our ability to maintain a single market in the UK, our ability to maintain international treaties that the Government have entered into, our ability to negotiate new trade agreements post Brexit, and our responsibility to manage common resources and assure justice in cross-border areas. Subject to those constraints, we want to make quick progress and devolve as much as we can to the devolved Administrations.

Electoral Spending Limits: Wales

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

There is indeed a broad view that our election law is fragmented, at times unclear and, as the noble Lord said, does not always reflect modern changes in communication. We are working with the Law Commission and other interested bodies, such as the Electoral Commission, to see whether we can streamline and clarify our electoral system, but we need to find the legislative time to take these reforms forward.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful reply. He will recognise that on this timetable, elections to the National Assembly for Wales are likely to take place ahead of the Westminster elections. Does he accept that common sense dictates that there should be some form of common approach to these costs, otherwise those organising elections in constituencies could easily get confused between one set of rules for a National Assembly election and another set of rules for Westminster? Can he ensure that co-ordination takes place?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question, not least because it was in English rather than in Welsh. The proposals would exempt the costs of translation from a candidate’s limits and I see no reason at all why the approach taken by the Welsh Assembly, if it goes down that road, and the approach taken by the UK Parliament, if it does so as well, should not be aligned so that there is no confusion among the candidates over what the rules are.

Policing and Crime Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard - part two): House of Lords
Wednesday 9th November 2016 Lords Chamber

The great advantage of Amendment 210 is that it seeks to translate into practice in this Bill the need for compliance with the Equality Act 2010 in relation to disability discrimination in a way that no general guidance or mere verbiage can do. Therefore, I very much hope that this amendment—or something very much like it—will find its way on to the statute book.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I apologise that I have not been able to take part in earlier discussions on this Bill. When you are a member of a party with one representative here, it is a little difficult at times. I am very keen to support Amendment 210, which relates to a matter very close to my heart. I declare my interest as a vice-president of Mencap.

In 1981, I was fortunate enough to introduce legislation—there are some Members in the Chamber now who were in the other place at that time—that became the Disabled Persons Act 1981. That provided for access to places for disabled people—buildings, places of entertainment, et cetera—that required a provision to be made. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has said, the trouble is that there is no comeback. There were not enough teeth in that Act and there have not been enough teeth in successive pieces of legislation over the 35 years that have gone on since then. There needs to be the sort of provision built in here to ensure that what is agreed as public policy actually does take place. I press the Minister to seriously consider accepting this or bringing in equal provisions to ensure that this happens.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I now speak to Amendment 212, which is on placing child protection as a statutory consultee for statements of licencing policy. The background is that, if we come back to the Licensing Act 2003, this is a modest attempt to add another objective. We have the protection of children from harm as one of the existing four.

Despite the existence of this objective, and the fact that Section 13(4)(f) of the Act recognises child protection as the body responsible for this objective, Section 5(3) does not include child protection as a statutory consultee in respect of statements of licensing policies—SLPs, as we know them. Every local authority is required to produce SLPs outlining how it aims to uphold the licensing objectives in its specific area. SLPs are important local documents and should be taken into account in all licensing decisions. As such, they are important in the way in which child protection issues relate to licensing, and should be highlighted and acted upon.

Under the present arrangements, statutory consultees are,

“(a) the chief officer of police for the licensing authority’s area, (b) the fire and rescue authority for that area, (c) such persons as the licensing authority considers to be representative of holders of premises licences issued by the authority, (d) such persons as the licensing authority considers to be representative holders of club premises certificates issued by that authority, (e) such persons as the licensing authority considers to be representative of holders of personal licences issued by that authority, and (f) such other persons as the licensing authority considers to be representative of businesses and residents in its area”.

The fact that no child protection body is included in that list of statutory consultees is a clear legislative gap, one that could easily be closed by this modest amendment. The greatly increased focus on safeguarding within licensing as a result of the Rotherham child sexual exploitation case suggests that there is now a pressing need for this.

Disability: Premature Deaths

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, before addressing the Question before us tonight, I join the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and say a few words about our dear colleague who would most certainly have been participating tonight were he still with us. The House is very much poorer for having lost a tireless campaigner, Lord Rix of Whitehall, who, as many will remember, last spoke here in December, during the passage of the then welfare reform Bill, despite his frailty at the time. Tonight it is indeed appropriate to remember the campaigning work of Brian Rix on these issues. His daughter Shelley, who, as we heard, had Down’s syndrome, inspired his life of activism, particularly for the Royal Mencap Society, in which I declare an interest as its vice-president.

As we all know, Brian was a much-loved actor. He used that popularity to raise millions of pounds for the Royal Mencap Society, becoming its general-secretary in 1980 and later its chairman and president. After becoming a member of this House in 1992, he focused attention on the rights of people with learning disabilities and their families, drawing on his experience and that of tens of thousands of people whom he met and helped. He was particularly concerned by the matters covered by this Question for Short Debate.

Lord Rix spoke in parliamentary debates on more than 300 occasions, and his focus was always on giving a voice to those too often ignored. He leaves three much loved children, Louisa, Jamie and Jonathan—his wife Elspet passed away in 2013. Noble Lords may wish to note that there will be a tribute event in the new year celebrating his life and achievements.

I now turn to the important issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, in her excellent opening speech—issues on which I know that Brian would have wanted to speak. The noble Baroness has been a trailblazer over many years on these matters. It is clear that there is still much progress to be made, and I look forward to the Minister providing us with an update on progress made in tackling the premature death of people with a learning disability.

I speak to highlight the importance of training for healthcare professionals to improve outcomes for people with a learning disability. This is also of critical importance to us in Wales, and I have served on investigatory panels on the issue in both Wales and England. Overcoming the national scandal of premature death among people with a learning disability requires a significant improvement in both the quantity and quality of training among doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals. Workforce development, minimum standards for healthcare support and guidance for commissioners are lacking, and the Government must address that.

I am pleased that some progress is being made. In July, Health Education England, Skills for Health and Skills for Care launched a learning disabilities core skills education and training framework—that is quite a mouthful. The framework provides the knowledge and skills needed for those delivering training to health and care professionals. Mencap has adopted the framework to develop training currently being co-delivered by people with a learning disability, which is being piloted with the NHS. This is welcome and underscores both the capability of people with a learning disability and the vital importance of including them in the delivery of services. This training focuses on identifying learning disability, developing communication skills and highlighting the importance of reasonable adjustments, such as longer appointment times and accessible information.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her work chairing a group supported by the General Medical Council, the Nursing Midwifery Council and Health Education England, which is looking at how good practice can be promoted so that all medical students and current staff receive the training they need better to equip them to support people with a learning disability.

I call on the Minister in her response to commit to ensuring that this framework is widely adopted and best practice spread. Without all health professionals receiving appropriate training, people with a learning disability will continue to be let down and premature deaths will continue to occur. This is a very serious matter and requires a serious response.

Trade Union Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 19th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, to many, it may seem that we do not need to debate the issue of the disapplication of this Bill to public services in Wales because we have gained those valuable concessions from the Government, particularly on facility time and check-off. I thank the Minster very much for listening to us and heeding our warnings and advice on that very important issue. However, it is important to stress a principle here, and that is what I want to discuss. We think that the Government have overstepped the mark on a matter of principle in that they should respect the devolution settlement of the UK. They tried to impose these measures on Wales without having the right or the powers to do so. We would just like to give a warning today not to try to overstep that mark again. We think that they were wrong to do it; it was a power grab and a mistake.

The Welsh Government, supported by a massive majority in the Senedd, have argued that public services are devolved and that their organisation should therefore be managed by Wales. By contrast, the UK Tory Government argued that employment is a reserved matter and is therefore their call. The situation in Scotland is different as it does not have a reserved model of government but a conferred one and the lines are more blurred in terms of who has the powers.

Today, the Labour Party launched its manifesto for the Assembly elections in Wales. It clearly states that,

“we will repeal sections of the UK Government’s regressive Trade Union legislation in devolved areas”.

It is there in black and white. Had these issues been pursued, the Welsh Government would have taken steps to overturn a measure which they believe is in their remit.

I am sure that noble Lords noted that I was very restrained in Committee and did not—for fear of further embarrassing the Government—refer to the leaked letter which came into our hands. In that letter—I was quite good then but the game is over now, so I can refer to it—the matter of whether the UK Government had the ability to legislate in this area in relation to Wales was discussed. I remind the Minister that the letter said that, according to advice from First Treasury Counsel, the Government have a,

“weak case in relation to Wales”.

The Government had a weak case and it is still a weak case. I hope they will respect their own policies in relation to devolution. In the draft Wales Bill, written by this Government, it is stated that,

“it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Assembly”.

I hope they will heed their own words and respect the devolution settlement for Wales.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment and I am glad to associate myself with almost everything the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said. I shall make an exception for the Labour manifesto, which has at long last appeared, and I contrast its rather thin guise with the 190 pages that Plaid Cymru has put forward—be that as it may. However, I welcome the progress that has been made in recent days, and particularly this afternoon, with regard to the Government’s movement on these important matters. I hope it is an indication of a more positive approach to these issues and an avoidance of the unnecessary involvement of legislation in matters that should not have legislation.

Turning to the amendment, clearly the Government of Wales have relationships with employees in Wales directly, through their own responsibilities, and indirectly, with regard to such bodies as the health authorities and the local authorities in Wales. We have a saying in Wales: you can lead the workforce through hell and high water but once you start driving them, woe betide. There is a different industrial climate and it is a climate that begs a co-operative approach, as opposed to a top-down approach. Because of that difference, it is very important that the legislature at Westminster does not involve itself unless it is really necessary—and I cannot see why it would be necessary in such matters.

It would be good if the Minister could indicate from the Dispatch Box today that the Government take this on board and are particularly sensitive to the questions that have arisen from the disputes between Westminster and the National Assembly—between the Government of Wales and the Government at Westminster—over the interpretation of legislation. The last thing we want is for that sort of dispute to lead to difficulties in working between the workforces and the Government.

In concluding, I draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that we do not have a strike by junior doctors in Wales because there is an understanding between the employer and the doctors. It is an approach that I commend to Westminster and I urge the Minister to take note of this amendment and its implications.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I frequently disagree with the way the Welsh Government operate but I defend totally their right to do so under the devolution settlement. If anything is within their rights, it must be their relationship with their employees.

Since the Agricultural Wages (Wales) Bill judgment by the Supreme Court, which occurred when I was a Minister in the Wales Office, it has been clear that the Government would not win on the issue at stake in this part of the Bill. The Welsh devolution settlement was simply much broader than we had all assumed, and that applied to the Welsh Government as well as to the Government here in Westminster. The new Bill, which is in draft form but will be extensively rewritten and I very much hope will come back next year, will probably provide much more certainty. However, we are working with the situation we are in now, with all its uncertainties and faults.

I say to the Government today, from my party: I have added my name to the amendment because we believe that the Government were well overstepping the mark on this issue. The Government must treat devolution with respect and not grudgingly. I regret that the concessions here have been made at the last minute, when the Government have their back against the wall. They should have seen reason a long time ago. However, for all that, I am very grateful that the Government have conceded on this issue.

Lobbying: Government Grant Agreements

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 19th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I fear that there is a fundamental point of principle on which I cannot agree with the noble Earl, who I know holds passionate views on this subject. This is about making sure that the many billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money that go to grant recipients are spent on the original allocation of the grants and do not find their way into political lobbying and campaigning.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that many charitable organisations falling within the purview of this Question are fearful of voicing their opinion in the context of the referendum on the European question? Will he make it clear to all such organisations that they will not be penalised under any circumstances for voicing their opinion, on whichever side that may be, in the context of the referendum?

Census 2021

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

It is part of our mission to try to get the information ready for use more rapidly. It is also part of our mission, and the Office for National Statistics and the Public Affairs Select Committee reports both touch on this, to use the administrative data that are available to the Government so that we do not just have a snapshot of where we are every 10 years but, rather, we can have a rolling set of information about what we have. For example, if you want to know how many children there are living in a local authority area, the Government have that information in the form of recipient addresses for those on child benefit.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, given that presumably there will be a census organised on a UK basis from London in the year 2021 irrespective of the technology that is used, can the Minister give us some commitment on behalf of the Government that figures relating to the number of Welsh speakers living in England will be collected? The figures at the moment relate only to Wales, and whereas other languages are collected in England they are not in relation to Welsh speakers in England. This is very misleading.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I note the noble Lord’s question. We have not yet decided exactly how many questions there will be in the next census. I should correct him, however: the census covers Great Britain. The arrangements for Northern Ireland are a little different.