Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

Perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness that it is not that every part of the Muslim community has no trust in Prevent. I am not aware of that, and I have been involved in it for quite a long time. Certainly, there are sections which have real problems with it and that needs to be addressed, but there are also sections which are pleased that this work is being done. Does she agree that that is correct?

[Baroness Warsi]

That is the point. When Prevent has been applied correctly and has been led by and with the community, it has made real progress. When you speak to practitioners on the ground—those who have ignored much of national policy; those who have ignored the rules on engagement and disengagement with British Muslim communities and have spoken to whom they want, when they want and how they want—you find that they have built really strong relationships which have allowed sections of the policy to be implemented properly.

Even if you speak to officers like Mr Neil Basu, who was referred to earlier, he himself will say that the biggest challenge for the police has been operating Prevent within a policy of disengagement with British Muslim communities whereby more and more individuals and organisations are simply seen as beyond the pale and are not engaged with. There is a challenge when large sections of the British Muslim community are disengaged and distrustful of a policy that will not be independently reviewed. I can tell my colleagues in government that if it were independently reviewed, it would enjoy more support and therefore would be more effective.

The noble Lord suggested that I believe that the British Muslim community is monolithic. I say to him as someone who is a Muslim and now 47 years of age that I am acutely aware that the British Muslim community is not monolithic. If he would care to read the first four pages of chapter one of my book, he will see that I explain that British Muslim communities are black and brown and Asian and Persian. They come from all over the world and have different theological beliefs and practices. They dress, eat and behave differently. He would then realise that I am a huge advocate of a diverse British Muslim community from many backgrounds. It is therefore wrong of him to attribute to me on the Floor of this House something which I have simply not said.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord West, has said, the Prevent programme is one of the core pillars of the strengthened Contest strategy which was published in June of this year. The strategy was developed taking into account views across the breadth of delivery. The Prevent programme serves as a key pillar in our response to the heightened terrorist threat we face now and in the coming years.

The programme is designed to safeguard and support those vulnerable to radicalisation, both on the far right and Islamist, as my noble friend Lady Warsi said. It is designed to stop them becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, said, we should have no qualms about doing so, just as we should safeguard them from sexual exploitation. That point is often forgotten but it is very pertinent. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, expressed her concern about freedom of speech and civil liberties, but terrorism is an infringement of civil liberties of the severest type. I am also sorry to disappoint my noble friend Lord Marlesford, but the Government remain firmly of the view that an independent review of Prevent of the kind envisaged in this amendment is not necessary at this time. Perhaps I may take a few moments to explain why.

As has been said, Prevent is a safeguarding programme that works. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has described how Prevent is the only show in town and the intention is to help those who are vulnerable and are being targeted and exploited by radicalisers. Sir Rob Wainwright, the former head of Europol, has described Prevent as the,

“best practice model in Europe”,

for tackling extremism.

In Committee I outlined how Prevent was not the beginnings of state surveillance, as it has been portrayed sometimes; rather, it is a locally driven programme that works with communities to deliver resilience-building activity and prevent some of the most vulnerable in our society becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism. In Committee the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, challenged a number of noble Lords to identify a specific local Prevent project which had given rise to concerns. It was very telling then, as it is now, that no noble Lord has yet identified such a project. The noble Lord talked about how private and public NGOs are now working on Prevent projects. Moreover, to answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, about the proportions being delivered by each, while I do not have the exact numbers, perhaps I may write to him.

While Prevent is successful at safeguarding individuals from becoming radicalised, it is not always well understood. I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord West, about promoting the safeguarding aspect of Prevent. It also supports partners to run a programme of engagement events with their communities. These events seek to engage members of the public and provide opportunities to hear at first hand from practitioners and community organisations about Prevent delivery, as well as acting as an open forum for discussion about its implementation. Further, Prevent does not target any one group, as is often said. It helps to address the growing and pernicious threat from the far right and to provide support for those referred due to concerns about Islamist extremism, among a range of other extremist beliefs. Indeed, the latest statistics, published just last week, show that of those individuals who received Channel support in 2017-18, near equal numbers were referred for concerns relating to far right extremism and to Islamist extremism.

On the positive impact of Prevent, I would remind the House of what Cressida Dick, the Commissioner of the Met police, said in June in evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee.

Crimea

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 13th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend is a huge expert in this area. Part of our diplomatic efforts in the current crisis have been to avoid this spreading much wider. There have been real concerns about comparisons that the Russians have been drawing between other disputes, past and present, and Crimea. My view is that of my noble friend, which is that Europe must continue to concentrate on trying to resolve the challenges that we have in the Balkans and not allow the two issues to be mixed.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, 213 years ago today, Lord Nelson, en route to the Battle of Copenhagen, wrote to Lady Hamilton:

“I hate your pen and ink men; a fleet of British ships of war are the best negotiators in Europe”.

I am not suggesting for a moment that there should be a military solution to this, but does the Minister not agree that the abysmal spending on defence across the EU means that we have no hard power as an adjunct to soft power and that, in a world inhabited by people like President Putin, you need both?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord has to say but the Government’s clear view, and indeed the view of the EU and the US, is that this matter needs to be resolved through political and diplomatic means.

Ukraine

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I hear what my noble friend says. He always has wise words on these issues. It is because we accept that we have these interests in Russia and Europe that we feel it is important that it is in our interest, as well as Russia’s interest, to de-escalate the situation and return to a politically stable Ukraine. Of course the EU and the United Kingdom need Russia, but it is also important to stress that Russia needs the EU as much as the EU needs Russia, and Russia has to be reminded of the cost of not being part of, and playing its role as part of, the international community.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

This is an extremely dangerous world and it is a very sobering thought that if Ukraine were a member of NATO, we would be stepping towards a situation where we could actually go to war. I am not suggesting for a moment that we should use military force in this situation, but we could, and I share my noble friend’s view about the dangers for Europe of having cut defence expenditure. My question relates specifically to so-called smart sanctions. Broad sanctions seem to me to cause real damage to Europe, ourselves and everybody, not least to ordinary members of the Russian population. What is the Government’s view on so-called smart sanctions on leaders who have taken certain decisions within Russia, such as freezing their assets and stopping their visas, and do they believe that they would have an impact in making them think about what they are doing?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point. Although Ukraine is not a member of NATO, it has a long-standing relationship with NATO and contributes to NATO operations, and has done so for many years. I am, with my wide portfolio in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, responsible for sanctions and therefore have spent some time considering what we call smart sanctions: well judged and well targeted sanctions that have impact. Sanctions should not be to make us feel better; they should be put in place so that they work and have an outcome. It is exactly in that vein that we consider them.

Russia: Human Rights

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Monday 21st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

Noble Lords will of course be aware of the issue of the “Arctic Sunrise”—it has been in the headlines for a number of weeks—whose 30-person crew includes six Brits. The Foreign Secretary raised the issue with Foreign Minister Lavrov at the UN General Assembly and subsequently wrote to him in October. The Foreign Secretary has also met Greenpeace’s executive director, and officials are in regular contact. I can assure the House that extensive consular assistance and support has been provided to these individuals. However, at this stage we are treating it as a consular matter as we feel that that is the best way of progressing it to a positive outcome.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the Russians treated with acclaim the victory by Lord Nelson at Trafalgar 208 years ago today, and I wonder whether the Royal Navy could maybe come to the nation’s assistance again. The coalition has been asking people to buy HMS “Illustrious”—which is the third “Invincible” class carrier, the other two having been scrapped earlier this year. I wonder if the House authorities might like to buy it to berth alongside the Palace of Westminster and accommodate the huge number of new Peers being created.

Central Asia

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

As well as being the northern line of communication, it is also the northern route, tragically, for drug trafficking and crime. A large amount of those drugs end up in Russia, but we feel the consequences of these drugs on our own streets. We are working with a number of the central Asian countries to improve border security through training, and there are Conflict Pool-funded projects, for example to train Uzbek customs officers to secure borders in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. As I said earlier, we are specifically involved in the counternarcotics element of the Istanbul process. We also have representatives from SOCA who are in the region supporting our work.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, as a sailor, I see their greatest deprivation of course as not being adjacent to a lovely ocean. Clearly there are a huge number of weapons now in that region, particularly because of what has happened in Afghanistan. Are the Government content that we, as well as NATO, have taken the requisite actions to ensure that we do not add to the huge amount of weaponry within that region?

[Baroness Warsi]

We are incredibly cautious. The noble Lord will be aware that we have to overcome a number of hurdles before we are comfortable with supplying any sort of arms to any country. I am confident, from the work that I have been involved in with specific countries, that the items that have been given, gifted or sold absolutely will not add to the instability and security situation in those countries.

Syria

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I will have to write to my noble friend in relation to his first question about negotiations and direct discussions with China. I am not familiar with the extent of those conversations, although I know that some have taken place.

My noble friend raises a really important point about the complications of the country that we are dealing with and the overlaps and different loyalties of groups at any one time. Extremism deeply concerns us in relation to what is happening in the region and its impact upon the United Kingdom. We have credible evidence that up to 100 young British people, or people connected to the United Kingdom, are out there fighting. It is attractive for people around to the world to go there and fight. We are concerned about the implications of that for the region and for when these people start to come home. That is why when we had the discussions with the national coalition one of the first things that we discussed was extremism. We have a commitment from the national coalition that it will do all it can to ensure that terrorism and extremism do not manifest themselves and grow and that weapons or any support given to the national coalition do not get into the hands of extremists.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, my question relates to the chemical arsenal held within Syria. As a military man, I find it very strange that the Syrian Government should use chemical weapons in a piecemeal way. Therefore, attribution is crucial in assessing who is using them. As a military man, although I think that the use of them is reprehensible and that it is a pretty odious regime, if you wanted to use them, you would use them on a major scale to try to get a military advantage.

The Minister is absolutely right that no one can win this militarily. That raises the issue of who is actually responsible for the release of a weapon of mass destruction in Syria. I am sure that this is a RFI—request for information—among our security services, but we need to be very clear about that so we can hold whoever it is responsible. If this is being allowed to be done down at very low unit level, that is extremely dangerous. There is quite a lot to be unpicked in this before we move forward.

[Baroness Warsi]

We have limited but persuasive information that a chemical weapon has been used. The evidence is that it has been used at a low level in a small way. There is credible evidence of sarin being used but the extent of the use is not clear. The noble Lord raises an important point in relation to why the regime would use it in this particular way.

It is important that we act on this matter in conjunction with the international community. We have sent the evidence to the United Nations. It is important that the United Nations takes a view on the evidence that we and other international partners are submitting. The House will agree that if there is anything we have learnt over the past decade and more it is that before we put into the public domain evidence of chemical or biological weapons or weapons of mass destruction, it is crucial we are clear about when they were used, how they were used and by whom they were used.

Crime: British Victims Abroad

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The view of the Government and indeed of successive Governments has been that a crime has to be tried in accordance with the law of the land in which that crime was committed. It would be just as unusual for countries to make a request to us to have their nationals who commit murder in this country to be tried back in their home country. Therefore, it is right that nationals are tried in the country in which they are caught.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, will the Minister wish the English nation well on this lovely sunny St George’s day?

[Baroness Warsi]

It gives me great pleasure to wish the English nation well on this glorious day.

Shipping: International Maritime Law

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Monday 4th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, there are, of course, many members of the Armed Forces who take part in private security companies, including private maritime security companies: 90% of private maritime security companies are based in London. We have led the international community in providing the guidance and rules under which such companies can operate. My noble friend will be aware that these companies operated long before we issued the guidance; clearly, they now operate within a system for which there is guidance.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I declare an interest that I am involved with a maritime security company. I am glad to say that I do it not because I am desperate for things to do, but because I feel that it is an important thing to do. I am delighted to speak because, 710 years ago today, the first admiral was commissioned in our country. That is rather nice. However, I would point out to the Minister that we must really focus on, and produce, some clearer guidance. There is no doubt that a large number of companies are now doing things which are beyond the law, since it is quite difficult for them to meet the requirements that are meant to be met. For example, the whole issue of floating armouries is a very real problem. Could I ask the Minister to push this issue much faster, because there will be an occasion—as the noble Lord said—where people will be getting into serious difficulties as a result of unintentionally breaking our laws and international law?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord speaks to this matter with great experience, both in relation to his previous role and in terms of his current role. He will be aware that these companies were operating before we issued guidance; it was really a reaction and response to the fact that they were predominantly operating out of the United Kingdom that the guidance was issued. The guidance is quite detailed in terms of the plans that they must set out and being responsive to the necessary organisations that monitor this in the particular area that they are in. The noble Lord will be aware, too, that international law will apply in international waters. The law of the particular flagged ship will apply to that particular vessel. For the companies that operate in that specific area around Somalia and the Indian Ocean, there are specific rules on which we have led in the drafting.

BBC: World Service

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, has the National Security Council looked at the balance in terms of soft and hard power and the importance of the BBC World Service, bearing in mind that for a minute amount of money this absolute jewel in our soft power crown is being damaged so badly? All of us who have been involved with these issues around the world over many years realise that this is really damaging.

[Baroness Warsi]

Again, the noble Lord raises an important issue. I am not sure whether it has been discussed at the National Security Council, but I can check that and write to him. I completely agree with him that the BBC World Service is, and remains, an important part of our soft power. Indeed, YouGov has recently said that the UK ranks extremely highly in relation to soft power. We are known as a soft power superpower. However, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that at times priorities have to be assessed and that these changes in priorities have been made at various times. Indeed, under the previous Labour Government in 2005, it was announced that the Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Greek, Hungarian, Kazakh, Polish, Slovak, Slovene and Thai language radio services would end.

Syria

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 8th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is aware of the Chilcot inquiry on matters in Iraq, which has a distinguished panel including Members of this House. He is also aware that it will report to the Prime Minister at the end of 2013. it would be inappropriate for me to comment on those matters at this stage.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, we know for certain that Syria has chemical weapons and, indeed, what we do not know is how closely it was liaising with the Soviets—and now the Russians—on those weapons. It seems that those are probably the most dangerous things, if they got into the wrong hands. Could the Minister reassure us that our Government, in connection with other Governments around the world, have a method of knowing if that is about to happen and if it has happened?

[Baroness Warsi]

At this moment in time, thankfully we do not have evidence to show that the armed opposition are in any way trying to get their hands on these weapons. However, we have made it very clear in very firm language that any use of these chemical weapons would result in a serious international response. We have also firmed up support in relation to border controls to stop anything passing between borders, and we also strengthened sanctions in June this year with the EU in relation to potential products that could top up any chemical and biological weapons stash that there might be in Syria.

Private Military and Security Companies

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness content that there are adequate RoE and lines of accountability on board merchant vessels if one of those security companies should happen to kill some alleged pirates?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not sure what the specific answer to that question would be, but I am aware that the whole point of having a code of conduct—and thereafter having international standards against which the code of conduct is implemented, and thereafter having an audit of those standards—is to ensure that there is voluntary acceptance of certain rules of behaviour that have to be applied by all private security companies.

Pakistan

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 19th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the Government have expressed their deepest condolences to the families of the 26 young men who were killed in that incident. However, we also recognise that, despite our special relationship with Pakistan and our special relationship and friendship with the US, it is for the US and Pakistan to resolve their relationship.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I welcome the focus on education because that is clearly so important within Pakistan, but is this money and support for education going down through government routes or is it going out separately to educational institutions? When I was the Security Minister, I was somewhat appalled that money seemed to get diverted and that the amount of money that actually got to the schools and to where it was required became very small compared with what was injected at the top.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the commitment is to educate 4 million children. It is a very specific commitment. It is not to give an amount of money but to ensure that 4 million additional children are put into education as well as providing training for a specific number of teachers and a specific amount of resources for schools. That money is channelled through the Government, predominantly on a provincial basis, but it is also channelled through NGOs—about 40 per cent of it passes through the provincial Governments and about 60 per cent passes outside.

Small Businesses

Debate between Lord West of Spithead and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The right reverend Prelate raises some important points. As your Lordships may be aware, one of the first vanguard areas for the big society was in Cumbria and it dealt with that very point: the extension of broadband to rural communities. However, I take on board the other concerns as well.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the secretary of the micro-business APPG. I became very aware as a Minister of the value of SMEs, VSMEs and micro-businesses to the security environment. Today, almost 105 years to the day since the launch of the “Dreadnought”, built by British workmen and enterprise in 12 months, can the Minister please assure me that we will reduce the red tape that is between those small companies and the Government? That is across government but particularly with the MoD, where it damages the ability of those companies to really help us.